Discipline and Punishment

[LittleSwitchy]

I’m going to let you know now. This is going to be a long posting.
A few people have asked for me to post this. So I figure it is something people in lifestyle might be interested in reading about.
This happened some 10-12 years ago. So some of the details might elude me.
A friend invited me to come meet her and we could go to a seminar on Discipline and Punishment. I drove out and met her the day before the seminar. We hung out had some good food and talked.
The next day we meet up. Head over to the seminar. I think there was 20-30 people. The couple giving the seminar come out. Introduce themselves. Then proceed to start talking about the discipline and punishment. The whole class lasted about 3 hours.
They explained the difference between discipline and punishment. When they got to punishment. Actual punishment not the … oh baby you been a bad girl… swat.
They explained there’s 10 ways to punish. I can’t remember exactly the 10 but I’ll try my best.
1 a look. The submissive does something. Maybe they are out in public. The dominant can give a look of disapproval.
2 tone of voice. Maybe the look didn’t work or the submissive didn’t pickup on it. Then a certain tone of voice is used. Hopefully getting the attention of the submissive.
3 standards. Say the dominant gave a task.
I need you to do XYZ. Those papers need to go out today. For what ever reason the submissive doesn’t get it done. The dominant can give the sub standards.
You are to write 2K times. I will not forget to do as instructed
4 essay writing. The dominant gives the sub an errand to get done today. The sun makes the mistake of not doing the errand. The dominant has the sub write an essay. Double spaced, paragraph form, double sided, 6 pages in length, Roman font size 8. The essay is to be about. What the task was. Why it was to be done. Why it wasn’t done. How to correct the situation. How to insure it won’t happen again.
5 corner time. I think we all know what corner time is. So no need to go real in depth. A simple. Ok. You screwed up. You are getting X amount of minutes in the corner.
6 physical. Dominant gave instructions on what needed to be done. When it had to be done. It was spelled out in detail. On more than one occasion. Maybe the dominant has tried the first 5 attempts at punishment. This time the instructions were not followed. The dominant sits down with the sub. Ok you didn’t do XYZ. We have talked about it a few times. Nothing has helped so you don’t make this mistake. So I guess I’m going to have to punish you.
That can be paddle or cane. Usually an impact item. Usually given in a predetermined amount of swats.
The couple giving the seminar told of a time the sub was punished. A cane was used. After the cane was used. The dominant sat the sub down and explained. This is why it was done. They discussed it. As the dominant put it… we both cried. As I hugged her.
7 withdrawal of attention. Not the same as corner time. Withdrawal of attention. The dominant sends the sub off. There’s no contact with the sub. The withdrawal of attention can be a huge mind F. It can go on for long time.
Be very careful if this is used. The sub might begin thinking… is he/ she right for me? Did what I do warrant this withdrawal?
Withdrawal of attention might bring out other issues in the relationship. It might point out that there’s a lack of communication.
If there’s lack of communication and withdrawal is going on. The sub might think… screw this. He/ she’s not worth it.
I’m unfortunately forgetting some of the 10. I may remember them. If so. I’ll add to this.
One thing I should say. If the sub does something to cause a punishment to be given. Do NOT punish when you are upset. If for whatever reason you are upset. Give a timeout or corner time. That gives both of you time to calm down and relax. Then after discuss what happened and what should be done. If anything.
I should give credit to the ones that did the seminar. Unfortunately I don’t remember his name. His submissive was midget. Good couple to meet and they did a great seminar.

 

[SimplySilver]

Withdrawing or Cutting Contact for punishment is an odd choice to my mind; it doesn't take control of the situation or correct a behavior but rather removes control. It can be used for creating space, but needs to have very clear communication on expectations, reasoning, and duration. To use it without communication could be considered ghosting or "freezing out" which are major red flags in a relationship that is supposed to be based on trust, communication, and respect. I actually cannot think of an instance where this would be productive to an infraction... Does anyone have insight there?

 

[MaraschinoCherry]

Withdrawing or Cutting Contact for punishment is an odd choice to my mind; it doesn't take control of the situation or correct a behavior but rather removes control. It can be used for creating space, but needs to have very clear communication on expectations, reasoning, and duration. To use it without communication could be considered ghosting or "freezing out" which are major red flags in a relationship that is supposed to be based on trust, communication, and respect. I actually cannot think of an instance where this would be productive to an infraction... Does anyone have insight there?

I agree with this. It’s not punishment; it’s a complete dealbreaker. If a D ever pulled this bullshit with me, he’d see that even the most submissive of subs can have very sharp claws.

 

[Acktion]

After repeated attempts to address this, I gave up, since the "new and improved" Twitterotica imposed character limits and doesn't like how many characters I needed to do so. So, as someone who studied this shit in college, worked the detention field for a decade, then went back to teach college, not to mention being a practicing D-type for damn near four decades, I'll just leave this here for y'all to make of it what you will.

“A person who has been punished is not thereby simply less inclined to behave in a given way; at best, he learns how to avoid punishment.”
― B.F. Skinner

 

[Dearelliot]

To some degree, the pleasure I receive from a D/s arrangement is being under the control of my Mistress, and her punishing me whenever she wishes to for any reason. Supposedly if I were perfect, she'd have no reason to punish me and I wouldn't want that.

 

[cascadiabound]

To some degree, the pleasure I receive from a D/s arrangement is being under the control of my Mistress, and her punishing me whenever she wishes to for any reason. Supposedly if I were perfect, she'd have no reason to punish me and I wouldn't want that.

perhaps a better word for what she administers is "funishment"?
I think @Acktion's point is well taken in that actual punishment tends to result in a person working harder to avoid punishment, not necessarily changing behavior or internal thinking.

 

[cascadiabound]

Also - in response to the OP post - sounds like a really good seminar... I totally agree that withdrawal of attention is the MOST severe form of punishment for a sub and has a high likelihood of resulting in consequences that are not healthy for either person and for the relationship overall.
I have had this inflicted upon me and frankly I do not think I will ever get over it. In some ways I would say it made me more recalcitrant, rather than more compliant.
I no longer have a D/s relationship with that person.

 

[Lady2020]

I get that people are into discipline. But to me, this is bs. It sounds like Parenting 101 for control freaks and those into mind games. Plus, who has the time and energy for any of this?

 

[LittleSwitchy]

Also - in response to the OP post - sounds like a really good seminar... I totally agree that withdrawal of attention is the MOST severe form of punishment for a sub and has a high likelihood of resulting in consequences that are not healthy for either person and for the relationship overall.
I have had this inflicted upon me and frankly I do not think I will ever get over it. In some ways I would say it made me more recalcitrant, rather than more compliant.
I no longer have a D/s relationship with that person.

I agree withdrawal of attention is pretty extreme. To me if that’s done. There’s way more issues going on in the relationship. That needs to be discussed and worked on

I’m sorry you went through that. I hope you are in a much better place now.

 

[LittleSwitchy]

I get that people are into discipline. But to me, this is bs. It sounds like Parenting 101 for control freaks and those into mind games. Plus, who has the time and energy for any of this?

What exactly are you saying is bs?

 

[Dearelliot]

Let's see, I do pay my Mistress for her time, to come here and sexually abuse me, so there is no doubt it's what I want.

 

[I_need_help]

Also - in response to the OP post - sounds like a really good seminar... I totally agree that withdrawal of attention is the MOST severe form of punishment for a sub and has a high likelihood of resulting in consequences that are not healthy for either person and for the relationship overall.
I have had this inflicted upon me and frankly I do not think I will ever get over it. In some ways I would say it made me more recalcitrant, rather than more compliant.
I no longer have a D/s relationship with that person.

I totally agree!

 

[Strixaluco]

The thing about withdrawal of attention is it brings to my mind the question "doesn't this punish my domme as well?

My Dom doesn't even use corner time for this reason, it diminishes the time spent really together.

 

[Strixaluco]

I get that people are into discipline. But to me, this is bs. It sounds like Parenting 101 for control freaks and those into mind games. Plus, who has the time and energy for any of this?

What would make a control freak is how many rules there are, how many aspects the Dom wants control. Sure, some have freaking many - most don't.

What is dominance if the sub can ignore given instructions without consequences?

Also in a DDlg dynamics a parenting like control may be even wanted. Heck, I know I would need a proper bedtime myself...

 

[IrisAlthea]

What is dominance if the sub can ignore given instructions without consequences?

Consequences and punishment is not quite the same though.

I think this is a matter of taste really.
There are several people writing about why they don’t have a punishment dynamic in this thread:
http://forum.literotica.com/threads/glutton-for-punishment.1543331/#post-93675873

 

[Strixaluco]

Consequences and punishment is not quite the same though.

I think this is a matter of taste really.
There are several people writing about why they don’t have a punishment dynamic in this thread:
http://forum.literotica.com/threads/glutton-for-punishment.1543331/#post-93675873

Well give me an example of a consequence that cannot be classified as punishment, then. For me even him being unhappy with me is a punishment in itself.

With my Dom we had a discussion about what punishments work and what are the ok. We for example ruled out withdrawal of attention, that is never to be used. And the rules that cannot be broken without punishment were also agreed upon together.

 

[IrisAlthea]

Well give me an example of a consequence that cannot be classified as punishment, then. For me even him being unhappy with me is a punishment in itself.

With my Dom we had a discussion about what punishments work and what are the ok. We for example ruled out withdrawal of attention, that is never to be used. And the rules that cannot be broken without punishment were also agreed upon together.

For me consequences tend to be inherent in grown up life.
Not sending the papers out in time like in one of the examples, will have late fees(punishement, but not by partner) or missed opportunities etc as a consequence.
If someone is hurt or disappointed by something their partner did, that is a consequence.
If I forget to buy whatever it was they wanted me to get for them, I’ll have to make an extra run and loose downtime/ time with them as a consequence.
Those are cause and effect, the way I see it.

If we make a rule that not sending the papers on time means writing something a lot of times, if the partner decides ahead of time to withhold affection/time together for certain infractions, late fees for not answering texts on time etc, those are punishments as they are not caused directly by the infraction.

If people are happy with their dynamic that’s fine. Do I have opinions on some of it? Yes, especially the withholding affection/contact which I think is a terrible idea in any relationship. My opinions don’t matter much when it comes to other peoples relationships though.

I just wanted to say that I don’t think it is fair to say that punishment has to be part of every D/s dynamic.

 

[Strixaluco]

For me consequences tend to be inherent in grown up life.
Not sending the papers out in time like in one of the examples, will have late fees(punishement, but not by partner) or missed opportunities etc as a consequence.
If someone is hurt or disappointed by something their partner did, that is a consequence.
If I forget to buy whatever it was they wanted me to get for them, I’ll have to make an extra run and loose downtime/ time with them as a consequence.
Those are cause and effect, the way I see it.

If not abiding by the rules set by my Dom would only make him disappointed but not cause anything else, it wouldn't be any different from a vanilla relationship in my mind.

 

[IrisAlthea]

If not abiding by the rules set by my Dom would only make him disappointed but not cause anything else, it wouldn't be any different from a vanilla relationship in my mind.

I get that.
Again, I’m merely pointing out that for some it’s other things, like for example who has the last word about rules and expectations that makes it different from vanilla or perhaps what kind of expectations and/or rules are accepted etc.

I guess it depends on personalities, baggage we carry but also culture, like how you define vanilla relationships in the first place.
Generalizing for example, I’ve seen much less of the ”I am giving you these rules and and punishments to improve yourself”-trope in femdom but instead way more of ”I’m doing this because I like to see you squirm, you little worm” - something that you’ll find is dismissed as inherently abusive in some male dom/fem sub circles.

I also think it’s a lot about what we find hot and what kind of balance we need and want in our life.

 

[Older_Pervert]

I’m going to let you know now. This is going to be a long posting.
A few people have asked for me to post this. So I figure it is something people in lifestyle might be interested in reading about.
This happened some 10-12 years ago. So some of the details might elude me.
A friend invited me to come meet her and we could go to a seminar on Discipline and Punishment. I drove out and met her the day before the seminar. We hung out had some good food and talked.
The next day we meet up. Head over to the seminar. I think there was 20-30 people. The couple giving the seminar come out. Introduce themselves. Then proceed to start talking about the discipline and punishment. The whole class lasted about 3 hours.
They explained the difference between discipline and punishment. When they got to punishment. Actual punishment not the … oh baby you been a bad girl… swat.
They explained there’s 10 ways to punish. I can’t remember exactly the 10 but I’ll try my best.
1 a look. The submissive does something. Maybe they are out in public. The dominant can give a look of disapproval.
2 tone of voice. Maybe the look didn’t work or the submissive didn’t pickup on it. Then a certain tone of voice is used. Hopefully getting the attention of the submissive.
3 standards. Say the dominant gave a task.
I need you to do XYZ. Those papers need to go out today. For what ever reason the submissive doesn’t get it done. The dominant can give the sub standards.
You are to write 2K times. I will not forget to do as instructed
4 essay writing. The dominant gives the sub an errand to get done today. The sun makes the mistake of not doing the errand. The dominant has the sub write an essay. Double spaced, paragraph form, double sided, 6 pages in length, Roman font size 8. The essay is to be about. What the task was. Why it was to be done. Why it wasn’t done. How to correct the situation. How to insure it won’t happen again.
5 corner time. I think we all know what corner time is. So no need to go real in depth. A simple. Ok. You screwed up. You are getting X amount of minutes in the corner.
6 physical. Dominant gave instructions on what needed to be done. When it had to be done. It was spelled out in detail. On more than one occasion. Maybe the dominant has tried the first 5 attempts at punishment. This time the instructions were not followed. The dominant sits down with the sub. Ok you didn’t do XYZ. We have talked about it a few times. Nothing has helped so you don’t make this mistake. So I guess I’m going to have to punish you.
That can be paddle or cane. Usually an impact item. Usually given in a predetermined amount of swats.
The couple giving the seminar told of a time the sub was punished. A cane was used. After the cane was used. The dominant sat the sub down and explained. This is why it was done. They discussed it. As the dominant put it… we both cried. As I hugged her.
7 withdrawal of attention. Not the same as corner time. Withdrawal of attention. The dominant sends the sub off. There’s no contact with the sub. The withdrawal of attention can be a huge mind F. It can go on for long time.
Be very careful if this is used. The sub might begin thinking… is he/ she right for me? Did what I do warrant this withdrawal?
Withdrawal of attention might bring out other issues in the relationship. It might point out that there’s a lack of communication.
If there’s lack of communication and withdrawal is going on. The sub might think… screw this. He/ she’s not worth it.
I’m unfortunately forgetting some of the 10. I may remember them. If so. I’ll add to this.
One thing I should say. If the sub does something to cause a punishment to be given. Do NOT punish when you are upset. If for whatever reason you are upset. Give a timeout or corner time. That gives both of you time to calm down and relax. Then after discuss what happened and what should be done. If anything.
I should give credit to the ones that did the seminar. Unfortunately I don’t remember his name. His submissive was midget. Good couple to meet and they did a great seminar.

I fully concur with the sentiment that punishment should never be given during a temper. Always best to impose corner time first, both to allow the Dom to fully calm down and the sub to reflect on what caused the need for punishment to be needed……

 

[Older_Pervert]

Withdrawing or Cutting Contact for punishment is an odd choice to my mind; it doesn't take control of the situation or correct a behavior but rather removes control. It can be used for creating space, but needs to have very clear communication on expectations, reasoning, and duration. To use it without communication could be considered ghosting or "freezing out" which are major red flags in a relationship that is supposed to be based on trust, communication, and respect. I actually cannot think of an instance where this would be productive to an infraction... Does anyone have insight there?

I agree that cutting contact is fraught with difficulties. In my mind it should only be used sparingly and briefly - rather like an extended version of corner time. “Go to your room/go home and come back tomorrow so that this can be resolved” Otherwise, the sub can indeed be forgiven for wondering what’s the point?

 

[artslut86]

perhaps a better word for what she administers is "funishment"?
I think @Acktion's point is well taken in that actual punishment tends to result in a person working harder to avoid punishment, not necessarily changing behavior or internal thinking.

Don't Ds especially when taking on new S's in essence set up no win situations? So no matter what you score 1 of the 10 punishments.?
I.e. give loose instruction, then say not good enough, to enforce compliance or will breaking to the D's desired level. ?
Don't subs break rules so they can be punished?
For instance in an e D/s r.ship what is the dynamic?
Guy tells girl to do x. She does x-1 gets punishment, then onto play time..which is a series of tasks like edging to which at some pt a person is either allowed to orgasm or they fail and guess, get a punishment?
Is that the primary cycle?

 

[Older_Pervert]

Don't Ds especially when taking on new S's in essence set up no win situations? So no matter what you score 1 of the 10 punishments.?
I.e. give loose instruction, then say not good enough, to enforce compliance or will breaking to the D's desired level. ?
Don't subs break rules so they can be punished?
For instance in an e D/s r.ship what is the dynamic?
Guy tells girl to do x. She does x-1 gets punishment, then onto play time..which is a series of tasks like edging to which at some pt a person is either allowed to orgasm or they fail and guess, get a punishment?
Is that the primary cycle?

In my experience, all D/s relationships have similarities, but each have subtle differences. I’ve had 8 over the past 30 years and none of them match the dynamic you describe of setting the sub up to fail, (though there have been occasions when rules have been deliberately broken to provoke punishment). What you describe seems more like an elaborate sex game than a D/s relationship.
A good Dom should be able to figure out when that’s happening though and change the dynamic by, for example, changing the nature of punishments to a kind that is less amenable to the sub. In the end it’s about finding a balance that works for the mutual pleasure and satisfaction of both parties.

 

[Strixaluco]

Don't Ds especially when taking on new S's in essence set up no win situations? So no matter what you score 1 of the 10 punishments.?
I.e. give loose instruction, then say not good enough, to enforce compliance or will breaking to the D's desired level. ?
Don't subs break rules so they can be punished?
For instance in an e D/s r.ship what is the dynamic?
Guy tells girl to do x. She does x-1 gets punishment, then onto play time..which is a series of tasks like edging to which at some pt a person is either allowed to orgasm or they fail and guess, get a punishment?
Is that the primary cycle?

For some, definitely not for all.

A D can just as well give clear rules from the start - the goal being nice compliance to the rules, not the punishments. A D can even teach the rules gradually. And while some D:s like subs breaking rules on purpose, some D:s don't tolerate that at all - to the point that they wouldn't keep such a sub. Just like many subs wouldn't stay with such a D who on purpose creates no-win situations.

A sub breaking rules on purpose can also be called a brat. Think - there's a special word to distinguish that kind of subs from other subs.

 

[cascadiabound]

Don't Ds especially when taking on new S's in essence set up no win situations? So no matter what you score 1 of the 10 punishments.?
I.e. give loose instruction, then say not good enough, to enforce compliance or will breaking to the D's desired level. ?
Don't subs break rules so they can be punished?
For instance in an e D/s r.ship what is the dynamic?
Guy tells girl to do x. She does x-1 gets punishment, then onto play time..which is a series of tasks like edging to which at some pt a person is either allowed to orgasm or they fail and guess, get a punishment?
Is that the primary cycle?

While this dynamic may work in some relationships, I personally would find a dynamic that sets me up to fail to be emotionally painful, damaging and hurtful.
Like others have said, this seems more like a sex game than a D/s power dynamic. At least for me... I need to count on my D to help me be the best I can. Challenge me... maybe ask me to do something that I may not succeed at, but not with the purpose of having me fail.