How EV sales are losing momentum with US buyers

[AlexBailey]

Ok first, DST has never claimed to add an hour to the standard 24 hour day. It is just a timeshift, allowing more evening hours in a day.

True,but one is cheaper than the other....

The maths been done, by smarter people than you. Rare earth minerals are cheaper to mine, than oil from deep well. Most REM's come from open pit mines, which are the cheapest mines to run. The manufacturing process uses less Greenhouse gasses than the petroleum industry.

However there is a cost which is hard to define, and that is the environmental aspect of the whole life cycle of say a Lithium battery, verses a 45 gallon barrel of raw crude.

Still Newtons laws of Thermal Dynamics show using batteries to produce electricity vs chemical reactions to produce heat has a lower energy loss. That means EV's are inherently more efficient than ICE's.

Once again Arpy, you're on the wrong side of the equation.

Battery recycling is something that can be solved with intention.

The main problem is that there are so many different battery types and configurations on the market that it's difficult to make the recycling process automated.

There was a recycling line made specifically for recycling IPhone 4 (if I remember correctly). It could do many thousands per hour because the machine was specifically tailored for that device. The same can be done with EV batteries. An ideal battery designs for recycling purposes would be a modular 'drop in' where many EV models use the same configuration of battery.

In this design you could do a battery exchange system. I've heard some bus fleets use drop-ins - the bus comes into the depot and quickly exchanges a used battery pack for a freshly charged one.

In cars it could be nice, you could use a cheaper one for short range and get a bigger one for longer drives....

There are many ideas as long as you aren't stomping your feet yelling about how someone is trying to take away your dead horse.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

There was a recycling line made specifically for recycling IPhone 4 (if I remember correctly). It could do many thousands per hour because the machine was specifically tailored for that device. The same can be done with EV batteries. An ideal battery designs for recycling purposes would be a modular 'drop in' where many EV models use the same configuration of battery.

Off topic on the rest of your post, but years ago I did make a push for the industry (SAE) to adopt a modular (re standard size that fits all models) design, which would eliminate the "charging" issue. IE you would stop at a "refiling" station and exchange the battery for a new fully charged one. Obviously this has a million issue to resolve and it never flew past the meeting.

 

[AlexBailey]

Off topic on the rest of your post, but years ago I did make a push for the industry (SAE) to adopt a modular design, which would eliminate the "charging" issue. IE you would stop at a "refiling" station and exchange the battery for a new fully charged one. Obviously this has a million issue to resolve and it never flew past the meeting.

I suspect there will be a recyleability mandate at some point. It was done with lead acid batteries a long time ago because spent batteries were a big toxic waste problem. It was mandated that manufacturers also had to self-recycle.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

I suspect there will be a recyleability mandate at some point. It was done with lead acid batteries a long time ago because spent batteries were a bib toxic waste problem. It was mandated that manufacturers also had to self-recycle.

Yes, if there isn't something in the works already. Ontario for example already has a zero waste regulation for producers and I assume that will also apply to EV batteries.

 

[deltablues65]

Yep, but this was on the western side, I was coming from Princeton travelling east towards Osoyoos, but still on the western side of Osoyoos. Not the hill coming into Osoyoos from Castlegar.

Lol....I got it now!

 

[AlexBailey]

You're going to need more of those. ALL of which run on fossil fuels.


I'm not an engineer but even I know about energy losses when you convert from one energy source to another. Somehow in your world that magically doesn't happen and we get mo powah! from the volts than the energy needed to produce it.

Which, in the real world is an impossibility.

Let's spell it out for you since you just don't get it.

A car, truck, van, whatever, that runs on internal combustion has an engine that has a specific power curve, meaning that it runs most efficiently at a particular speed with a particular load.


An electric motor has a much more linear power curve, meaning the highest efficiency curve is much broader -over a wide range of operating conditions. and it can store energy from regenerative braking - and it uses no fuel at zero mph.
A petroleum powered generator used for charging batteries can run in its ideal power curve whenever it is running. (Its easier to manage emissions this way also.)

Battery chargers are more than efficient enough to make use of this advantage.


Because of these reasons you can get more miles from the same amount of petroleum fuels when you use them appropriately for EV charging.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND OR SHOULD I PUT IT ALL IN CAPS?


It's also easier to manage delivery of petrol to a few centralized places - near rail lines? Near pipe lines?

Emissions at a power plant can be managed there instead of every tailpipe in cities or neighborhoods.


Don't worry, I have zero faith in you being able to understand this - way too sciency I'm sure.

 

[Rightguide]

Changes to teh status quo upset aging boomers like Rightguide.

I'm not a boomer, I'm Gen X, Robinette. We've been through several changes to the status quo, those that have worked and been accepted. This particular attempt is hardly ready for prime time.

 

[RobDownSouth]

I'm not a boomer, I'm Gen X, Robinette. We've been through several changes to the status quo, those that have worked and been accepted. This particular attempt is hardly ready for prime time.

How did you manage to serve in Vietnam as a Gen X?

 

[Rightguide]

Maybe you can tell us;

What incentives would industry have had over the last several decades to reduce emissions without government mandates?

Real facts and figures along with solutions that attack the problem at its greatest points of impact.

 

[Bray123]

Derpy seems to take it personally when someone dares to have a different opinion. He needs to understand that he's not a priest, we don't pay him to hear his thoughts. We get them for free and we have the freedom to ignore them.

Storing electricity on an industrial scale is the easiest thing ever. The hydro companies just reverse the switch on the generators and turn them into pumps. They literally pump the water back to the top of the dam during times of excess power from tidal/solar etc generation..

 

[AlexBailey]

Real facts and figures along with solutions that attack the problem at its greatest points of impact.

What a corporate style response. No surprise, lots of words with no real content.

So where do you think we would be with emissions without decades of regulations? How would the market keep the air clean?

 

[Rightguide]

How did you manage to serve in Vietnam as a Gen X?

I didn't as I've already told you several times. I realize you have a rather phobic Edgar Cayce-like condition that will not allow you to see the present without your paranoid hauntings of the past clouding your perception of the here and now, but your assessments regarding me are just as incorrect as any of your political assessments of the moment. All of which are clouded by a hate and bias of traditional America. I feel safe in assuming the person you associate with me was probably an America-loving patriot as well. Something you just can't accept.

 

[Rightguide]

What a corporate style response. No surprise, lots of words with no real content.

So where do you think we would be with emissions without decades of regulations? How would the market keep the air clean?

The content is simple for thinking people. If you want to address "alleged causes" of global warming plow into the ground the two biggest countries where its alleged causes are the most prominent before you attempt to destroy the economies of those countries where symptoms are the least.

 

[AlexBailey]

The content is simple for thinking people. If you want to address "alleged causes" of global warming plow into the ground the two biggest countries where its alleged causes are the most prominent before you attempt to destroy the economies of those countries where symptoms are the least.

You completely avoided my question.

What incentives would industry have had to decrease emissions over that last several decades without government regulation?


Your avoidance displays how without regulation it wouldn't happen, because shills like you will just spin, spin, spin....

 

[HisArpy]

Let's spell it out for you since you just don't get it.

A car, truck, van, whatever, that runs on internal combustion has an engine that has a specific power curve, meaning that it runs most efficiently at a particular speed with a particular load.


An electric motor has a much more linear power curve, meaning the highest efficiency curve is much broader -over a wide range of operating conditions. and it can store energy from regenerative braking - and it uses no fuel at zero mph.
A petroleum powered generator used for charging batteries can run in its ideal power curve whenever it is running. (Its easier to manage emissions this way also.)

Battery chargers are more than efficient enough to make use of this advantage.


Because of these reasons you can get more miles from the same amount of petroleum fuels when you use them appropriately for EV charging.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND OR SHOULD I PUT IT ALL IN CAPS?


It's also easier to manage delivery of petrol to a few centralized places - near rail lines? Near pipe lines?

Emissions at a power plant can be managed there instead of every tailpipe in cities or neighborhoods.


Don't worry, I have zero faith in you being able to understand this - way too sciency I'm sure.

Yes I understand, you believe in perpetual motion. You also think that future technological advances, which may never happen, are the key to today's pollution issues.

Good luck with that.

 

[HisArpy]

You completely avoided my question.

What incentives would industry have had to decrease emissions over that last several decades without government regulation?


Your avoidance displays how without regulation it wouldn't happen, because shills like you will just spin, spin, spin....

This is irrelevant to the First Law Of Thermodynamics.

Basically, you just tried to move the goalposts.

 

[AlexBailey]

Yes I understand, you believe in perpetual motion. You also think that future technological advances, which may never happen, are the key to today's pollution issues.

Good luck with that.

You just proved that you don't get it. You don't understand basic principals of science.

 

[AlexBailey]

This is irrelevant to the First Law Of Thermodynamics.

Basically, you just tried to move the goalposts.

In this one you proved that you can't hold multiple concepts in your head.

 

[HisArpy]

In this one you proved that you can't hold multiple concepts in your head.

dudly you CANNOT get more energy out than you put in. So, talking about how electric motors have a "better energy curve" is just more of your inane twaddle. To get an electric car you have to burn fossil fuels. That results in a loss of energy (through waste heat).

The average efficiencies of power generation are 35% for coal, 45% for natural gas and 38% for oil-fired power generation. What this means is that 35% of the energy in coal results in electric power, the rest goes "up the stack" as heat. the highest efficiencies observed are 42% for coal, 52% for natural gas and 45% for oil-fired power generation.

https://geospatial.blogs.com/geospa...ficiency-of-fossil-fuel-power-generation.html

That means you're ALREADY behind the curve because you've already lost at least 60% of the energy. Going on about how electric motors are more efficient than gas engines after those losses is just bullshitting yourself.

You absolutely cannot have "more efficient" anything after at least a 60% loss of the available energy in the conversion from fuel to electricity.

 

[AlexBailey]

dudly you CANNOT get more energy out than you put in. So, talking about how electric motors have a "better energy curve" is just more of your inane twaddle. To get an electric car you have to burn fossil fuels. That results in a loss of energy (through waste heat).



That means you're ALREADY behind the curve because you've already lost at least 60% of the energy. Going on about how electric motors are more efficient than gas engines after those losses is just bullshitting yourself.

You absolutely cannot have "more efficient" anything after at least a 60% loss of the available energy in the conversion from fuel to electricity.

Just stop. You're embarrassing yourself. Go run my post about energy efficiency curves by anyone who isn't as thick headed as you.

 

[AlexBailey]

dudly you CANNOT get more energy out than you put in. So, talking about how electric motors have a "better energy curve" is just more of your inane twaddle. To get an electric car you have to burn fossil fuels. That results in a loss of energy (through waste heat).



That means you're ALREADY behind the curve because you've already lost at least 60% of the energy. Going on about how electric motors are more efficient than gas engines after those losses is just bullshitting yourself.

You absolutely cannot have "more efficient" anything after at least a 60% loss of the available energy in the conversion from fuel to electricity.

I never said you can get more energy out of the same amount of petroleum , I said you can get more miles with less emissions. If you want to hear that as breaking the laws of thermodynamics you need to go back to school.

 

[HisArpy]

Just stop. You're embarrassing yourself. Go run my post about energy efficiency curves by anyone who isn't as thick headed as you.

Your post is bullshit from soup to nuts.

You cannot be "more energy efficient" after 60% loss of energy from conversion from oil to electricity. Thinking you can be is where you and the rest of the green nutjobs fuck up.

Next time, don't sit in the back of the class and sleep and then proclaim you're smarter than everyone else.

 

[Lazaran]

In this one you proved that you can't hold multiple concepts in your head.

You literally held Derpy’s hand and walked the idiot through it, and the dumbfuck STILL doesn’t get it.

That ^ was to be expected.



Derpy

 

[Fuzzy1975]

I didn't as I've already told you several times. I realize you have a rather phobic Edgar Cayce-like condition that will not allow you to see the present without your paranoid hauntings of the past clouding your perception of the here and now, but your assessments regarding me are just as incorrect as any of your political assessments of the moment. All of which are clouded by a hate and bias of traditional America. I feel safe in assuming the person you associate with me was probably an America-loving patriot as well. Something you just can't accept.

lol fucking liar.

 

[HisArpy]

I never said you can get more energy out of the same amount of petroleum , I said you can get more miles with less emissions. If you want to hear that as breaking the laws of thermodynamics you need to go back to school.

Do you know why aircraft don't measure the fuel they carry in gallons?

Because "gallon" is irrelevant and nonsensical. What's important is the amount of energy they have onboard. That is calculated in pounds not miles traveled.

The same formula for computing the energy available for aircraft vis a vis distance over ground can be applied to electric cars. When you do the math, the result is that electric cars are much less efficient no matter what speed the motor is turning for the miles traveled.

This is because of that 60% conversion loss I keep pointing out to you but which you refuse to acknowledge because it defeats your entire argument.

Basically, you're a numbskull who thinks he's stumbled onto the secret for perpetual motion.