Good Manners

[sb2009]

Ha! Yeah, 2 is the question. How the heck did that happen?

Agriculture.

 

[teknight]

Agriculture.

....says the obviously biased chicken lady!

 

[banyangirl]

I try to be polite and respectful in any situation, but in a situation where I'm scene-ing with a Dom(me), I'm very submissive. I tend to make myself as small as possible and have a habit of keeping my eyes down.

 

[Netzach]

I am glad you were amused by it.

The point of the story was to point out the irony that first of all I find it pretty damn funny that the topic is about good manners. Those who have been most forceful in championing thier view has pretty much wrecked what credibility they so enthusiastically espoused about good manners.

Secondly it was and wasn't an ad hom because I did offer supporting evidence, you just got your heels dug in to far to be objective enough to see it. No the evidence I presented wasn't about feminization of boys/men or what you call the bizarre etiquette of osg. I purposefully stayed away from those two topics and haven't given my opinion on either of them, rather you will note that I mentioned two keywords in the story which I knew you would pickup on because you used them both in a false statement. You said...

"but it's a chimera. it doesn't exist except in the minds of men of a certain age who feel threatened by what may or may not be post-modernity."

Does it really only exist in the minds of men who feel threatened?

You want supporting evidence? This thread is exhibit A of the hate toward those who would even hint that they espouse traditional roles and or values. In other words its ok to be part of the BDSM community or live your life anyway you want to as long as you do not hold any of "those" views, because those who hold such views are ignorant, closed minded, stupid, and bigotted. And history clearly shows how the gay community and women have suffered under that old way.

The fight for women's rights. The fight for gay rights. The fight? What an interesting word to describe something that's a myth... a chimera. Something that only exists in the minds of men of a certain age who feel threatened.

Yet exhibit B, thousands of parents remove their children from public schools each year for a number of reasons, but among the top reasons are parents who "feel threatened", and who do not want their children taught tolerance for the same sex lifestyle which is now required by law to be part of the ciriculum.

Maybe the hate and the hypocrisy is justified. The scorecard is no where near even and there is still a long way to go before equality and acceptance is realised.

but...

It would be insulting for me to sit here and tell you that all the oppression, fear and violence of the past exists only in the minds of women or gays of a certain age who feel threatened. And it would be dishonest.

Equally dishonest is to try to say that the attack of the traditional role of the male is something that only exists in the minds of men of a certain age who feel threatened. Because the traditional male role and any expression there of, is no longer accepted or even tolerated in today's society. Its considered ill mannered and rude to act in an assuming manner because you are a man. I'm not saying whether this is good or bad, I'm simply pointing out that as real change has come to society, the effects on those living in that society are real to, they are not just imagined.

Some, probably most, will adjust and be assemilated. Some will live out their days pretty much disgruntled and some will try to find a place where they can still be themselves and fit. As has been mentioned before, and I agree, I believe this is also one of the reasons you see a migration to the BDSM community. which brings me full circle back to the bizarre etiquette of osg.

I do not think that it is only men in recent years you see coming and exploring the BDSM community, I think traditional minded women also have come here as well. In large part because of the same reasons traditional men have come.

If I were to come to a BDSM board I would not think her comments as a person who identifys herself as being a slave or a submissive as being bizarre. Perhaps if she posted the same comments on a woman's right forum, I would think they were bizarre as it would clearly cause a comotion.

Her views may be uncommon and I may not totally agree with them but they are not bizarre. I certainly didn't think it deserved the dismissive and belittling response it got.

BDSM or Leather as I think of it, is a refuge from the idea that my power IS my genitalia and not me. Whether I'm me or susie subslut do-me it doesn't matter. Having my sexuality hijacked in front of my face by mainstream sexism that isn't so new fresh or exciting isn't my idea of a safe time anymore.

Coexisting is one thing, having to listen to "gee I wish the world were even more hostile to you when only a tiny portion of it has ever been hostile to me" is another.

You people have fucking everything but it's not good enough, you want the Dungeon AND the government that wants to shut it down. You won. Feminism is a dirty word. Who are you fighting?

"How would it feel if told you it was all in your head?" Oh please. That's never happened to GLBT people or women or non-normative men. You got there late is what I would feel.

It's not "in our heads" because of ongoing demonstrable centuries of data. I'm sorry the last 30 years have been confusing, how sorry do I have to get in the context of forced institutionalization for people like me for the last 100? It's not good enough to have to find consenting women to boss around, you need to feel like everyone is lining the streets to clap for you?

Get over it. No one is lining the streets to clap for anyone else.

 

[Netzach]

What about men who ARE happier in the new role? I can see everyone gives a shit about them.

See I absolutely do not care if someone wants to hold a door or pull a chair. Nor do I mind doing these things for other people. I think it's absolutely bizzare to make this into a major expression of power or sexuality at all. I don't assume a man is assuming incompetence from me in doing this because it's completely insane to do so - I can't even relate to the mindset. So I'm not that pissed off person when I encounter some version of manners. Shit, if he uses a fork at all I'm happy.

But when someone is lamenting the ability to assert himself, PUSH his behaviors onto me, belittle me if I open a door before he gets to it or make me feel like I'm challenging some tradition in doing it without thinking about it nearly as much as he does we have crossed a line.

I don't see why this is hard to get.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Bravo, Netz!

 

[KoPilot]

http://e.deviantart.net/emoticons/t/thumbsup.gif

 

[Pulledtaffy]

If I'd ever been on a first date with a man who ordered for me so naturally without any awkwardness and explanation that I'd prefer for him to order for me, I'd think I'd died and gone to heaven! Not only do I think that is the essence of politeness, I also think that if you're actively, consciously looking for a man who will be ABLE to assume control, this would be a very good sign. Is it too "early" in the relationship... who writes these damned rules?? Women who are alone, and gonna STAY alone, that's who. A woman who wants a relationship with a controlling man LETS HIM HAVE control, for god's sake. Otherwise you're cutting off your nose to spite your face. Women's lib and feminism have a lot to answer for, if you ask me. ;-p

 

[YourCaptor]

If I'd ever been on a first date with a man who ordered for me so naturally without any awkwardness and explanation that I'd prefer for him to order for me, I'd think I'd died and gone to heaven! Not only do I think that is the essence of politeness, I also think that if you're actively, consciously looking for a man who will be ABLE to assume control, this would be a very good sign. Is it too "early" in the relationship... who writes these damned rules?? Women who are alone, and gonna STAY alone, that's who. A woman who wants a relationship with a controlling man LETS HIM HAVE control, for god's sake. Otherwise you're cutting off your nose to spite your face. Women's lib and feminism have a lot to answer for, if you ask me. ;-p

hot..

 

[Netzach]

If I'd ever been on a first date with a man who ordered for me so naturally without any awkwardness and explanation that I'd prefer for him to order for me, I'd think I'd died and gone to heaven! Not only do I think that is the essence of politeness, I also think that if you're actively, consciously looking for a man who will be ABLE to assume control, this would be a very good sign. Is it too "early" in the relationship... who writes these damned rules?? Women who are alone, and gonna STAY alone, that's who. A woman who wants a relationship with a controlling man LETS HIM HAVE control, for god's sake. Otherwise you're cutting off your nose to spite your face. Women's lib and feminism have a lot to answer for, if you ask me. ;-p

You're right.

You should have to date only people your parents pick for you. Fuck feminism.

 

[teknight]

Women's lib and feminism have a lot to answer for, if you ask me. ;-p

Yup. It's horrible that you have choices and that a few misguided feminists think of you as a human being. Netzach is right. Fuck feminism!


On a more serious note- the point is to LET him take control, if that is your cup of tea, not have him assume it willy nilly, 'cause he calls himself "Dominate" *snerk* or 'cause he has a dick. Although, let's be serious, what more qualification than a penis does one need?

 

[Que]

I stumbled across a discussion at FetLife this morning that made me curious...

The following question was posed:

Two people are meeting for a first dinner date. While looking at the menu, the man asks the woman "What sounds good?" The woman responds "X", and when the waiter arrives table side, the man says "The lady would like X; I'll have Y." Was his behavior appropriate or not, and why?

The fascinating thing to me was the disparity of responses - everything from praise for "showing good manners" to "OMG what a douche!" to "Total RED FLAG/he's trying to assume control too quickly!" (Rants about "misogynistic behavior hiding behind acts of chivalry" occurred, as well.)

So - where do good manners fit in this whole BDSM / D/s thing, and how do the dynamics of power impact their use?

Hmm too much tempting fodder here to avoid my verbosity, so I'll just pretend to be answering the fetlife question sans your interesting take on power exchange etc.

Bottom line is he is inquiring as to her preferences and then fulfilling them. His asserting the traditional male role is entirely appropriate, unless he is leashed and in panties and say she's paying. (assuming this was a defined "date" he asked her, expectation is he is paying, does not matter at all whether he thinks he will be getting some or she thinks she should put out..dammit Im doing it..where the hell was I?)

Do NOT even get me started here "misogynistic behavior hiding behind acts of chivalry"

I mean really don't.

Ok Too late.

I am sick the fuck to death of every person who was born without the albatross of being born a WASP and the expectation that I should be apologizing to death for it. Yep, I'm male. have a penis and everything. Doesn't make me a misogynist. Limited pigmentation...makes me more susceptible to skin cancer, doesn't make me a racist - and REALLY don't get me started on where that leads politically.

Women's studies classes in colleges have done more to fuck up a woman's chances at achieving the kind of life that they imagine the men in power lead than any neanderthal troglodyte has ever done to repress women. (Nationwide and in nearly every case I might remind admissions/graduations/advanced degrees of woman all lead men by a very statistically significant margin - yet they continue this MYTH of systemic male repression. Fuck them all! Misogynistic enough for you?)


On a more cheerful note. I'm kind of in love. My 15 year old daughter had to explain to me why I could not get the object of my ardor (who had given me her phone number, her availability, her smile and her time ) to commit to going out on a specific date. Apparently sometime in the last 2 decades it became acceptable and preferred to "hang-out" with no specific plan as opposed to showing that you value her time by planning something engaging to do.

I was astounded that sex is not the stumbling block. She has as much as hinted she would be open to sneaking away for a little romp, but worries about the commitment implied by a table cloth and linen napkins. Heaven forfend if I order for her, eh?

And she's never seen Casablanca. ~sigh~

WTH have the rest of you men been DOING with the women I left on the table for you two decades ago??!!

Do I HAVE to train them ALL??

FFS I do go on.

 

[intothewoods]

Who said being a male makes you a misogynist? Or that being white makes you racist? The fact that the woman you want to date is only interested in a fling or fucking is not evidence that all women are whatever the hell you're saying they are.

As far as where women are today, women are graduating from advanced degree programs in equal numbers to men, and yet higher level professional positions are still primarily occupied by men. I don't believe anyone here said who is to blame -- the point has been made that feminism is more than a change in who opens the door and whether boys get to play with dolls.

 

[teknight]

Who said being a male makes you a misogynist? Or that being white makes you racist? The fact that the woman you want to date is only interested in a fling or fucking is not evidence that all women are whatever the hell you're saying they are.

As far as where women are today, women are graduating from advanced degree programs in equal numbers to men, and yet higher level professional positions are still primarily occupied by men. I don't believe anyone here said who is to blame -- the point has been made that feminism is more than a change in who opens the door and whether boys get to play with dolls.

But it's easier to kvetch than to reason, is it not?

 

[JMohegan]

Equally dishonest is to try to say that the attack of the traditional role of the male is something that only exists in the minds of men of a certain age who feel threatened. Because the traditional male role and any expression there of, is no longer accepted or even tolerated in today's society. Its considered ill mannered and rude to act in an assuming manner because you are a man. I'm not saying whether this is good or bad, I'm simply pointing out that as real change has come to society, the effects on those living in that society are real to, they are not just imagined.

Some, probably most, will adjust and be assemilated. Some will live out their days pretty much disgruntled and some will try to find a place where they can still be themselves and fit. As has been mentioned before, and I agree, I believe this is also one of the reasons you see a migration to the BDSM community.

At the risk of prompting a burst of sarcastic boo-hooing from Netzach, I'm gonna agree with you that American society in general, over the course of my lifetime, has become far less accepting of women who defer to their mates, and men who take charge in the context of a personal relationship.

Now I don't usually mind being called a controlling prick or male chauvinist pig. I'm a big boy, with a thick skin, and I can handle it. More importantly, I've never had trouble finding a partner who was comfortable with, and aroused by, me, as I am.

But I do mind the shit my partners have taken, from family & friends. Of course, they've been big girls themselves. But somehow it's different when the shit is directed at a person you care about, and I'm protective like that.

So part of me understands what you're saying.

In the scheme of things, though, when compared to the shit taken by a woman who wants to marry her female lover, or a person born with a cunt who feels to her core that she's really a man, or a woman with control issues comparable to mine, the shit taken by my partners starts to seem relatively minor.

And here's what I don't understand about your personal perspective, RJ. Why don't you feel comfortable among conservative Christians?

When USA Today runs ads from the SBC declaring, "You are right because you called wives to graciously submit to their husband's sacrificial leadership," and that ad is signed by a 2008 presidential candidate, and that candidate goes on to win 8 states in the Republican primary, does it really seem accurate for you to declare that "the traditional male role and any expression there of, is no longer accepted or even tolerated in today's society"? Really? Huckabee even got 12% of the Republican primary vote in California! So how could we possibly infer a complete lack of tolerance for traditional males?

I'm not criticizing; I'm genuinely asking.

Huckabee's world seems alien to me for a bunch of reasons, including the fact that I'm not down with the Jesus thing. But RJ, I've seen you quote the Bible, favorably, on wives submitting, Abraham doing the Master thing with Sarah, and so on. So why isn't conservative Christianity a perfect fit for you? Why do you feel so attacked, when that niche not only exists, but thrives, in a sizable chunk of this country?

 

[rosco rathbone]

At the risk of prompting a burst of sarcastic boo-hooing from Netzach, I'm gonna agree with you that American society in general, over the course of my lifetime, has become far less accepting of women who defer to their mates, and men who take charge in the context of a personal relationship.

I think this is true but only for certain circles. In my world, it's definitely the case.

 

[JMohegan]

I am sick the fuck to death of every person who was born without the albatross of being born a WASP and the expectation that I should be apologizing to death for it. Yep, I'm male. have a penis and everything. Doesn't make me a misogynist. Limited pigmentation...makes me more susceptible to skin cancer, doesn't make me a racist - and REALLY don't get me started on where that leads politically.

Women's studies classes in colleges have done more to fuck up a woman's chances at achieving the kind of life that they imagine the men in power lead than any neanderthal troglodyte has ever done to repress women.

I'm a white male, too.

Albatross, my ass.

I've never taken any women's studies classes. Have you?

 

[JMohegan]

I think this is true but only for certain circles. In my world, it's definitely the case.

That's my point, in a nutshell.

I've got no idea what the hell goes on in places like West Virginia, Georgia or Arkansas. But from the type of people they're electing to public office, I can do a fair bit of inferring.

 

[KoPilot]

I think this is true but only for certain circles.

The romantic comedy crowd.

 

[00Syd]

Women's studies classes in colleges have done more to fuck up a woman's chances at achieving the kind of life that they imagine the men in power lead than any neanderthal troglodyte has ever done to repress women.

Hahahahahaha Okay.

 

[teknight]

Hahahahahaha Okay.

Well, he's right, you know .
I mean, who wants women to think, to want equality, to want to be treated as human beings, not as vagina bearers?

Also, it's obvious if women want to have the kind of life they imagine the men in power lead, they should take men's studies- men lead for a reason, after all..

 

[Stella_Omega]

Here is the kind of heteronormative dude that gives me the creeps when he calls himself a dom;

I am sick the fuck to death of every person who was born without the albatross of being born a WASP and the expectation that I should be apologizing to death for it. Yep, I'm male. have a penis and everything. Doesn't make me a misogynist. Limited pigmentation...makes me more susceptible to skin cancer, doesn't make me a racist - and REALLY don't get me started on where that leads politically.

reading this might help you;
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/files/mcintosh.html

Women's studies classes in colleges have done more to fuck up a woman's chances at achieving the kind of life that they imagine the men in power lead than any neanderthal troglodyte has ever done to repress women. (Nationwide and in nearly every case I might remind admissions/graduations/advanced degrees of woman all lead men by a very statistically significant margin - yet they continue this MYTH of systemic male repression. Fuck them all! Misogynistic enough for you?)

You might benefit from reading this;
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/

On the other hand;

At the risk of prompting a burst of sarcastic boo-hooing from Netzach, I'm gonna agree with you that American society in general, over the course of my lifetime, has become far less accepting of women who defer to their mates, and men who take charge in the context of a personal relationship.

this is true, and it's a good thing. It means that a woman who wants to be submissive in a whole-lifestyle way has to do a little bit of soul searching about it before she dumps her ass on some dude. I do not feel sorry for anyone who is forced to think about their choices and come to an apologia. The unexamined life is not worth living.

Now I don't usually mind being called a controlling prick or male chauvinist pig. I'm a big boy, with a thick skin, and I can handle it. More importantly, I've never had trouble finding a partner who was comfortable with, and aroused by, me, as I am.

But I do mind the shit my partners have taken, from family & friends. Of course, they've been big girls themselves. But somehow it's different when the shit is directed at a person you care about, and I'm protective like that.

So part of me understands what you're saying.

In the scheme of things, though, when compared to the shit taken by a woman who wants to marry her female lover, or a person born with a cunt who feels to her core that she's really a man, or a woman with control issues comparable to mine, the shit taken by my partners starts to seem relatively minor.

Once more, I congratulate you on your imagination and empathy and willingness to educate yourself.

You are the kind of hetero Dom I would be glad to meet at a munch.

 

[rosco rathbone]

T
I've got no idea what the hell goes on in places like West Virginia,

A whole lot of meth, with oxies to take the edge off.

 

[intothewoods]

But it's easier to kvetch than to reason, is it not?

I don't know what the fuck that was.

You are the kind of hetero Dom I would be glad to meet at a munch.

The few. The proud. Het Doms worthy of a convo with Stella.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I don't know what the fuck that was.



The few. The proud. Het Doms worthy of a convo with Stella.

that did sound mighty egocentric, didn't it...