Good Manners

[Stella_Omega]

<snip a bunch of stuff I don't quite get what Rj means by it>

Some, probably most, will adjust and be assemilated. Some will live out their days pretty much disgruntled and some will try to find a place where they can still be themselves and fit. As has been mentioned before, and I agree, I believe this is also one of the reasons you see a migration to the BDSM community. which brings me full circle back to the bizarre etiquette of osg.

I do not think that it is only men in recent years you see coming and exploring the BDSM community, I think traditional minded women also have come here as well. In large part because of the same reasons traditional men have come.

Well, they come and explore one bit of the community. One reason I came to BDSM was because it freed me from those very same traditions. But then... you hets are weird at times, with this "I'm the whole world" thing you get going on.

If I were to come to a BDSM board I would not think her comments as a person who identifys herself as being a slave or a submissive as being bizarre. Perhaps if she posted the same comments on a woman's right forum, I would think they were bizarre as it would clearly cause a comotion.

Her views may be uncommon and I may not totally agree with them but they are not bizarre. I certainly didn't think it deserved the dismissive and belittling response it got.

In any context-- they are bizarre. Not because she has them, but because she voices them as if they are normative.
If she voiced them on a forum just for submissive girls and their daddies-- in that context, they would be normative. But this forum is NOT exclusively submissive girls and their daddies, and many of us live within a feminist context-- and she isn't talking about her sex life which she makes absolutely clear.

It would be good if we all learn to say; "in my opinon" before we make statements about how the world should be. I try to, because I know damn well that "what I want" is an opinion.

and really people, tolerance doesn't mean people have to say "oh yes you are absolutely corrrect" when someone is in fact, incorrect.

Too fucking right.

 

[where]

I do not know of anytime when a man would tell a woman what she would eat at a resturant and that somehow be considered normal behavior or good mannered. I "understand" that it may be more normal within a BDSM relationship, however I suspect that a vast majority of even BDSM relationships do not have this as an aspect of their dynamic.

So you agree with me and disagree with osg? maybe you should have read what I wrote in the first place.

With a much broader brush, there were other expereinces which touched on or shaped my views regarding men telling women what they were going to eat in the past. I assure you that these other expereinces were quite normal and part of vanilla mainstream.

funny, mostly men would abdicate themselves from that kind of stuff because the home was the woman's sphere. Read some social history

Back in the day husbands/fathers would tell women what they and the rest of the family were going to eat on a day to day basis in normal vanilla dynamic. Quite often a dutiful wife would ask her husband just before he was walking out the door to go to work, what he wanted her to make for supper and he would say I want this tonight. It may sound weird, but as I grew up, I thought women always ate salad because it was the only way to opt out without being offensive.

back in what day? I'm going to assume you are just talking about your own family because again, men had more important stuff to be bothered with than menu planing. Again, look at magazines from the 50s and 60s and you'll see they are full of women looking for ideas of meals to make their men, not asking 'John wants goulash, how do I make it?'

Many of times my dad forced me and my sisters to eat crap we didn't want or like and threatened a spanking for being ungrateful if we gave him any backtalk about it. Never once did I see my dad force my mom to do this but I never saw my dad ever consult her as to what she wanted for dinner that night either. But generally(in my expereince) women tended to defer to their husband's choice to what was going to be served and ate.

I'd say you had a very hands on dad to be that concerned with what is the traditional woman's domain.

I think this thread mostly divides people along the lines of people who have a knowledge of social history and those who don't.

 

[bhndblueyes88]

sorry about the Foie Gras issue LOL

So when I was 14 and on my first day at this restaurant, I walked in the huge walk-in freezer and fell into a big pan of it. So I was naturally upset. The sous chefs were all saying "oohhh you are in big big trouble....you have to go tell chef, you are probably going to get fired."

So, being 14 and a big scaredy cat, I was terrified. I went to "Chef" and couldn't get a word out without breaking into snot-bubbling wails. The sous chefs burst into laughter and Chef pulled me into his arms and said soothing words in German. I spent the next five years being a spoiled spoiled "chefs pet" there. He was like a grumpy father figure who forced me to eat things like calf brains and sweetbreads.

oh, memory lane...

lols that's cute

 

[where]

In any context-- they are bizarre. Not because she has them, but because she voices them as if they are normative.
If she voiced them on a forum just for submissive girls and their daddies-- in that context, they would be normative. But this forum is NOT exclusively submissive girls and their daddies, and many of us live within a feminist context-- and she isn't talking about her sex life which she makes absolutely clear.

in fairness to osg, for her they ARE normative. the problem is that she is very limited in her experience of life in the... hate to use the word, but... normal world and then assumes that what are norms for her are norms for the rest of us. I can't think of any society at any time in history in any part of the world that had her apparent lifestyle as a 'norm'.

 

[YourCaptor]

I know you were kidding, but given the responses of others, I'll answer that straight.

Empathy is a trait found in men who are secure in their own masculinity.

Bullies are weaklings at heart, and they know it. Hence the desperate attempt to convince otherwise.

Empathy with food is found in men who starve to death.

I have a hard time caring about the comfort level of goddamn ducks that are going to die in two weeks anyway, when there are so many suffering humans that I could spend my time and energy caring about. I'm such a jerk!

I also agree that humans come first. After all the purpose of empathy is to facilitate social relations within the species. Empathizing with a duck over the homeless, that's psychosis.

The wanting isn't wrong. It's the cruelty necessary to satisfy the want that is wrong.

Realizing that we can't always get what we want is a mark of maturity. Tempering our wants with recognition of the impact of our behavior sometimes sucks! But the capacity to do just that is the hallmark of an ethical human being.

Says the bondage dude on the BDSM forum.

 

[Keroin]

Oh look, the chivalrous men are worried about the delicate sensibilities of the poor weak females. How thoughtful and well mannered!

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

 

[Stella_Omega]

in fairness to osg, for her they ARE normative. the problem is that she is very limited in her experience of life in the... hate to use the word, but... normal world and then assumes that what are norms for her are norms for the rest of us. I can't think of any society at any time in history in any part of the world that had her apparent lifestyle as a 'norm'.

"in fairness to osg" is unfair to many of the rest of us-- for so many different reasons.

 

[teknight]

Oh look, the chivalrous men are worried about the delicate sensibilities of the poor weak females. How thoughtful and well mannered!

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

Was that....Canadians....being rude?!
Surely they hired foreigners to play the rude parts, right?

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

 

[callinectes2]

A mini-hijack and interesting aside. I was listening to a syndicated FM radio show on the way to work this morning. Actually it is more correct to say the three 12 year old girls in my car demanded to listen to it..but I digress. The topic of the "feminization" of men came up. The entire cast consisting of three men and two women all agreed that men are being conditioned to be defer to women and be somewhat milquetoast. Then women did not like this trend and commented they wanted a "man to be a man" though they didn't do a lot of elaborating on what that meant. I found it interesting in light of the discussion on this thread.

 

[teknight]

A mini-hijack and interesting aside. I was listening to a syndicated FM radio show on the way to work this morning. Actually it is more correct to say the three 12 year old girls in my car demanded to listen to it..but I digress. The topic of the "feminization" of men came up. The entire cast consisting of three men and two women all agreed that men are being conditioned to be defer to women and be somewhat milquetoast. Then women did not like this trend and commented they wanted a "man to be a man" though they didn't do a lot of elaborating on what that meant. I found it interesting in light of the discussion on this thread.

I don't think you're thread jacking...but:
I don't think it's fair to say that one's less of a man's man if you don't feel obligated (by manners) to hold doors open for women, or perform any of these other stereotypical behaviors.
Matter of fact, if that's what makes you a man, you're not much of a man at all.

And how are men defering to women (according the radio show)?

 

[Daddy2mylilgirl]

A mini-hijack and interesting aside. I was listening to a syndicated FM radio show on the way to work this morning. Actually it is more correct to say the three 12 year old girls in my car demanded to listen to it..but I digress. The topic of the "feminization" of men came up. The entire cast consisting of three men and two women all agreed that men are being conditioned to be defer to women and be somewhat milquetoast. Then women did not like this trend and commented they wanted a "man to be a man" though they didn't do a lot of elaborating on what that meant. I found it interesting in light of the discussion on this thread.

Elvis Duran?

 

[sb2009]

well, some of these menfolk need to start deferring to me because frankly, I need some deferment. Or some other word that mean "worship me."

 

[teknight]

well, some of these menfolk need to start deferring to me because frankly, I need some deferment. Or some other word that mean "worship me."

So as not to create some sort of gender imbalance , I am ignoring you.

 

[sb2009]

Did someone say something?

 

[teknight]

Did someone say something?

Go figure, a woman not paying attention to a man. What is society coming to?!

 

[midwestyankee]

Fuck! I ran out of popcorn on page 15.

 

[teknight]

Fuck! I ran out of popcorn on page 15.

Manners dictate that you're supposed to share the popcorn.
So rude!

 

[midwestyankee]

Manners dictate that you're supposed to share the popcorn.
So rude!

I only share with beautiful women, which, given the current company around here, explains both why I ran out early and why you got none. So sorry, old sport.

 

[teknight]

I only share with beautiful women, which, given the current company around here, explains both why I ran out early and why you got none. So sorry, old sport.

Ah. Well then. If you were being a gentleman to the ladies, truly, I cannot complain. Hats off to you sir.

 

[Stella_Omega]

On a related note, someone pm'd me for a consult on female ejaculation. I linked him to the thread here, and he replied "Thank you, Lady."

To him that's the epitome of politeness. To me it's a grind-my-teeth faux pas that negates any satisfaction I had in helping him.

 

[Aurantica]

I think I'm still somewhat flabbergasted that something so simple is being seen as a D/s issue. The thread at Fet hit 4 pages; the majority opinion being that a man ordering a womans dinner (after asking what she wanted) was creepy, presumptuous, rude, controlling, belittling, and proof he saw her as beneath himself. Women who appreciate the behavior are brain washed and weak.

What.
The.
F*ck?

I read the thread wondering if anyone under 40 has ever even heard of Emily Post or Amy Vanderbilt.

Or maybe I'm archaic to the point of obsolete... In my world if we go someplace together (not meeting at the restaurant) the man drives - even if he's driving my car. He opens the doors (car and building), offers his arm, helps me with my coat, asks what I'll have/orders, pays the bill, and makes sure I get home safely. Its his [dating] job. Then again, I was also raised by a father who told me to always keep a quarter in my purse in case I ever got a flat tire. lol

I guess it all depends on how you were raised, and the degree of formality in your relationship. My dad always taught me to respect a man who opens the door for you, cause they're the keepers. If you're old-school, I can see how ordering for your date would be appropriate.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I guess it all depends on how you were raised, and the degree of formality in your relationship. My dad always taught me to respect a man who opens the door for you, cause they're the keepers. If you're old-school, I can see how ordering for your date would be appropriate.

You might end up married to a door-opening asshole.

 

[teknight]

I guess it all depends on how you were raised, and the degree of formality in your relationship. My dad always taught me to respect a man who opens the door for you, cause they're the keepers. If you're old-school, I can see how ordering for your date would be appropriate.

I know you're not saying you'd marry a guy just 'cause he's opened a door for you.
I think that part of the disconnect on the thread comes from what we perceive as being respectful. Those of us opposing old school manners see them as being presumptuous and frankly disconsiderate of the other person. If I'm opening the door for you, ordering for you, being "nice" to you because it's what I was taught, then my actions are automatisms designed to make me feel good, without taking you into consideration at all. Pardon me, but that's rude.

Aren't manners a question of acknowledging the other person and respecting them? Well, all these pre-imposed guidelines are possibly hindering you from doing just that, in which case, your manners don't amount to squat, and may well wind up insulting someone whether you meant for it to happen or not- see Stella being squirted in the eye above.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Wow, Tek. That's... just beautiful, man.

 

[sb2009]

I know, it was nearly poetic. I'm being serious, perfect explanation for how I feel about this issue.