Good Manners

[CutieMouse]

I stumbled across a discussion at FetLife this morning that made me curious...

The following question was posed:

Two people are meeting for a first dinner date. While looking at the menu, the man asks the woman "What sounds good?" The woman responds "X", and when the waiter arrives table side, the man says "The lady would like X; I'll have Y." Was his behavior appropriate or not, and why?

The fascinating thing to me was the disparity of responses - everything from praise for "showing good manners" to "OMG what a douche!" to "Total RED FLAG/he's trying to assume control too quickly!" (Rants about "misogynistic behavior hiding behind acts of chivalry" occurred, as well.)

So - where do good manners fit in this whole BDSM / D/s thing, and how do the dynamics of power impact their use?

 

[Chgris]

Hmm... the phrasing he used was proper etiquette for ordering for a female companion. I'd think the problem would be in doing so with no warning as it were.

I'm sure the 'modern women', and no I don't mean feminists, they are a whole other breed, may not have ever even been exposed to the idea of a gentleman companion ordering for them.

I know I've often enough been chastised just for holding a door open at a public venue, for a female I was not with as a common courtesy.

 

[Richsap]

I think it is a generational thing... people my age (50's) were brought up such that it is most acceptable for the man to order for the woman in a resturant and depending upon your social background even expected. My wife expects me to order for her, so she tells me what she wants before we are asked. Goes along with opening the door for her, etc.. And in case you are wondering, we are a D/s couple, so it has nothing to do with being in control (at least to us), it is more a matter of treating a lady like a lady, even when she is your sub.

 

[Keroin]

This is such an individual thing. I'd be annoyed if some person I'd only just met decided to take it upon themselves to order my meal for me. And, yes, I'm old enough to understand this was once considered simple "good manners". Times change.

But this is why I'd never do a dinner out as a first date. (Snore!). I'd actually have a whole bunch of dates (group and solo) before I'd do the "dinner out" and by then the man would know me well enough to know that ordering my meal just isn't cool...OR...we would have a PYL/pyl dynamic beginning wherein him ordering my meal would be a part of the hawtness.

 

[NomadLady]

I think it is a generational thing... people my age (50's) were brought up such that it is most acceptable for the man to order for the woman in a resturant and depending upon your social background even expected. My wife expects me to order for her, so she tells me what she wants before we are asked. Goes along with opening the door for her, etc.. And in case you are wondering, we are a D/s couple, so it has nothing to do with being in control (at least to us), it is more a matter of treating a lady like a lady, even when she is your sub.

Totally agree with the answer above....

Was the man the PYL in this date? or was the woman the PYL? That would make the discussion much more valid to know a little more background.

 

[intothewoods]

I would not be offended if my date ordered for me in that way. It just sounds considerate. If my date ordered for me without bothering to ask what I wanted, then I would be offended!

I think it would be smooth and well-mannered for the man to say something like, what do you think you'd like, and then, mind if I order for us both? That way it's clear, and if your date would prefer to order for herself, she can let you know.

The douche and red flag comments seem like an over-reaction to me.

 

[vintage63]

I would not be offended if my date ordered for me in that way. It just sounds considerate. If my date ordered for me without bothering to ask what I wanted, then I would be offended!

I think it would be smooth and well-mannered for the man to say something like, what do you think you'd like, and then, mind if I order for us both? That way it's clear, and if your date would prefer to order for herself, she can let you know.

The douche and red flag comments seem like an over-reaction to me.

I agree completely.

So tell me though... what does PLY stand for?

cheers

 

[rosco rathbone]

I've done that kind of thing as a "filter".

 

[CutieMouse]

The man was the PYL (which also caused offense LOL).

Keroin, I tend to avoid dinner as a first date, as well.

It doesn't bother me if my dinner companion orders for me; it doesn't bother me to order for myself. I'll often defer, just because it makes sense to - like last night I had a date for drinks at a local wine bar. I knew 1/10th as much about wine as my date, so it made sense to me to not even bother looking at the wine menu. (We ended up having a bottle of pinot noir from Burgundy, France... I still have no clue what I was drinking, other than it was yummy. LOL)

On the flip side, I have a habit of chit chatting about the menu while looking it over - asking my dinner partner what he's considering/etc. I don't want to order something twice the price of his meal, because I consider it tacky and rude to order the most expensive thing offered just because I'm not paying. (For the record - I don't have a problem with paying for my own dinner, or even picking up the entire tab; however, I tend to associate with the sort of men who get irritated when I try to pay the bill. LOL)

The PYL/pyl question also raises another interesting thought... say the PYL was a woman. Could it not be an act of service for her pyl to book reservations at her chosen restaurant, hold the door open when entering the establishment, help her with her coat, make sure her food was ordered to her specifications, be educated about the wine list/pairings to pick the perfect bottle, stand when she excused herself from the table, etc? As with many things, I'm thinking intent colors the actions.

 

[rida]

I tend to look at intention rather than to action before getting offended.
Also I think it depends a lot on the type of restaurant, who choose it and who has a better knowledge of the menu/dishes.

For instance, with the same dinner date, when we were in a French restaurant that he had picked, he asked me what sounded good and he made the order, while when we went to a Japanese place, I checked the menu, asked what he'd like and placed the order.

 

[RJMasters]

I think telling her what she's gonna eat without asking would be bad mannered regardless of a vanilla first date or D/s first date.

Given the example you did, he asked her what looked good and then ordered for her. I don't see anything wrong with that and I think it would fall into an anticipated range of acceptable or even welcomed behavior.

Perhaps the reverse is equally true regarding the manners of the submissive in this situation. Would it be a sign of good manners for her to appreciate that he asked what she liked and then defer to him to order for her?

 

[NomadLady]

I've been asked by a Dom on a dinner date what I wanted and he then ordered for me. I don't have a problem with that. Being that this situation was a first date I guess it depends on the whether the D/s relationship had already started in chats/emails/etc before the dinner.

Say it had been on online thing and this was the first dinner date...I would totally expect the PYL to open doors, order dinner, etc for his pyl. They always say you can tell the character of someone by the way they treat waiters/waitressess/service industry type employees. I think the same can theory can also be used towards a PYL. How they treat people in public shines HUGE light on their private character.

 

[FurryFury]

I wouldn't be pleased with this sort of thing on a first date, I don't care who it was. I just turned 50 and it would piss me off. Just because I said, X sounded good, doesn't mean that's what I was going to order.

FF

 

[CutieMouse]

I think I'm still somewhat flabbergasted that something so simple is being seen as a D/s issue. The thread at Fet hit 4 pages; the majority opinion being that a man ordering a womans dinner (after asking what she wanted) was creepy, presumptuous, rude, controlling, belittling, and proof he saw her as beneath himself. Women who appreciate the behavior are brain washed and weak.

What.
The.
F*ck?

I read the thread wondering if anyone under 40 has ever even heard of Emily Post or Amy Vanderbilt.

Or maybe I'm archaic to the point of obsolete... In my world if we go someplace together (not meeting at the restaurant) the man drives - even if he's driving my car. He opens the doors (car and building), offers his arm, helps me with my coat, asks what I'll have/orders, pays the bill, and makes sure I get home safely. Its his [dating] job. Then again, I was also raised by a father who told me to always keep a quarter in my purse in case I ever got a flat tire. lol

 

[FurryFury]

He didn't ask what she wanted to order though. He asked her what sounded good. If a guy asked me that I might answer any number of items for any number of reasons such as, if I thought HE would like the dish. I would not necessarily think he was asking what I wanted at all.

 

[ecstaticsub]

I wouldn't be offended. If I were in a situation like you described and a man had ordered for me without previously asking if it were ok I would be fine with it if he actually ordered what I wanted. If not I would have spoken up and politely (to avoid embarrass him) said something like "Actually, I have changed my mind I would prefer Z".

 

[YourCaptor]

I think manners would entail a "can I order for you?" Cause you know, just cause something looks good don't mean it's what you want. Looks good does not equal get that for me.

But you know, who really cares, she could always go, "no I think I'll have X instead". No bigy.

 

[CutieMouse]

He didn't ask what she wanted to order though. He asked her what sounded good. If a guy asked me that I might answer any number of items for any number of reasons such as, if I thought HE would like the dish. I would not necessarily think he was asking what I wanted at all.

Whereas if someone asked me "What sounds good to you?" my answer would be "The ___ looks delicious; I think I'll have that." The idea that I would try tio guess what my date might find appealing and respond based on HIS tastes instead of my own is weird to me.

 

[Honed_Hunger]

I stumbled across a discussion at FetLife this morning that made me curious...

The following question was posed:

Two people are meeting for a first dinner date. While looking at the menu, the man asks the woman "What sounds good?" The woman responds "X", and when the waiter arrives table side, the man says "The lady would like X; I'll have Y." Was his behavior appropriate or not, and why?

The fascinating thing to me was the disparity of responses - everything from praise for "showing good manners" to "OMG what a douche!" to "Total RED FLAG/he's trying to assume control too quickly!" (Rants about "misogynistic behavior hiding behind acts of chivalry" occurred, as well.)

So - where do good manners fit in this whole BDSM / D/s thing, and how do the dynamics of power impact their use?

Inappropriate behavior on first date,or 20th date IMO. The man in question crossed the line by ordering for the woman,without asking her if she'd allow or like him to place the order,and based her dietary choice solely on the disclosure on her part of ''what sounded good '' when he inquired earlier.

Gender or sexual orientation cast aside...........unwanted social liberties being taken by one without prior expressed consent is a red flag with me.

 

[Keroin]

Keroin, I tend to avoid dinner as a first date, as well.

I don't know what your reasons are, CM, but for me, sharing dinner out together is an intimate moment. Those first few dates, when we're learning about each other, call me a prude but I don't want to do anything intimate. I want to get to know you and I want you to get to know me in the most comfortable and informal setting possible.

Then, if we click, let the dinners out begin.

Hm, oddly enough I just realized that I would have sex on the first date but I wouldn't do a dinner out. So the term "intimate" is relative I guess, lol.

 

[seela]

I don't do the dinner thing in the early stages of a relationship either, but I don't find the behavior described in OP to be insulting or belittling. And calling a red flag on it seems like a complete overreaction to me. I'm more inclined to see it as a charming Emily Post thing than being a jerk, but then again I've always been rather drawn towards the manners of the olden days.

Like Keroin, I find sharing a dinner in a nice restaurant to be an intimate thing, too. In my own relationship he usually asks me if I would like X or Y, and then I get to pick, but I don't often even open the menu. Then again, if we're ordering take out, I'm always the one who places the order and chooses the dishes for the both of us.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

I stumbled across a discussion at FetLife this morning that made me curious...

The following question was posed:

Two people are meeting for a first dinner date. While looking at the menu, the man asks the woman "What sounds good?" The woman responds "X", and when the waiter arrives table side, the man says "The lady would like X; I'll have Y." Was his behavior appropriate or not, and why?

The fascinating thing to me was the disparity of responses - everything from praise for "showing good manners" to "OMG what a douche!" to "Total RED FLAG/he's trying to assume control too quickly!" (Rants about "misogynistic behavior hiding behind acts of chivalry" occurred, as well.)

So - where do good manners fit in this whole BDSM / D/s thing, and how do the dynamics of power impact their use?

Honestly, I would've liked that. I've done dinner as a first date a few times, as well as lunch, and each time the person I was with has indicated for me to order first. I see that also as good manners. Maybe slightly more modern good manners than ordering for me?

I haven't really thought about manners within this context, other than the 'it's hot when orders are framed as polite questions' threads.

I don't see how manners are any different really. They should still be used! I've seen many exchanges, admittedly all online in varying contexts, with PYLs who've assumed that because they've identified as PYL it's an excuse to be a rude, demanding shithead.

I think the dynamics of power brings those sort of things into a glaring, obvious light because there's more focus on the *ways* people relate to each other.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

Whereas if someone asked me "What sounds good to you?" my answer would be "The ___ looks delicious; I think I'll have that." The idea that I would try tio guess what my date might find appealing and respond based on HIS tastes instead of my own is weird to me.

Same here. I wouldn't be trying to guess, I'd flat out ask.

However, I'd probably accept a recommendation on trying something that he liked and I'd not had, provided it was a recommendation, and not an imperative.

And I'd also talk about varying points on the menu, and get to the all important 'and how *do* you like your steak done?' because an answer of "well done" just could be a deal breaker.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

I don't know what your reasons are, CM, but for me, sharing dinner out together is an intimate moment. Those first few dates, when we're learning about each other, call me a prude but I don't want to do anything intimate. I want to get to know you and I want you to get to know me in the most comfortable and informal setting possible.

Then, if we click, let the dinners out begin.

Hm, oddly enough I just realized that I would have sex on the first date but I wouldn't do a dinner out. So the term "intimate" is relative I guess, lol.

For me, dinner out is the casual setting. Cooking for someone is the intimate affair. It takes a long while before I'll do that.

 

[Tetriak]

So - where do good manners fit in this whole BDSM / D/s thing, and how do the dynamics of power impact their use?

The problem is two fold:

1) Trading upon reified/abstracted notions of power,
2) Assuming that power is inherent in these situations.

This particular subject - and many similar subjects - deal with 'ways of life', and as such change, sometimes dramatically, between populations and time.