Good Manners

[Cattypuss]

I stumbled across a discussion at FetLife this morning that made me curious...

The following question was posed:

Two people are meeting for a first dinner date. While looking at the menu, the man asks the woman "What sounds good?" The woman responds "X", and when the waiter arrives table side, the man says "The lady would like X; I'll have Y." Was his behavior appropriate or not, and why?

The fascinating thing to me was the disparity of responses - everything from praise for "showing good manners" to "OMG what a douche!" to "Total RED FLAG/he's trying to assume control too quickly!" (Rants about "misogynistic behavior hiding behind acts of chivalry" occurred, as well.)

So - where do good manners fit in this whole BDSM / D/s thing, and how do the dynamics of power impact their use?

If I was the woman in question this behaviour would strike me not so much as bad manners as just self-aggrandizing pompous dickery. I'd have a hard time taking him seriously after that.

Interestingly, if he had said "My friend will have..." rather than "The lady will have..." it would come across as far less ridiculous to me and thus far more acceptable.


edited to add: but then (I've just read the whole thread) - the whole shenanigans that CutieMouse mentions (him driving, even if it's my car; him opening car doors, taking my coat etc etc) I (personally) find very outmoded and frankly risible. Like two people self-consciously playing parts from an earlier period in history. To me, good manners in a man are things like listening attentively and according me intellectual respect. Not doing things my grandma might have expected decades before Women's Lib.

Random addition: the second word in "Burgundy, France" sounds so very odd to a non-American ear - probably like saying "California, USA" would sound to an American ear lol

 

[ImOnIt]

The thread at Fet hit 4 pages; the majority opinion being that a man ordering a womans dinner (after asking what she wanted) was creepy, presumptuous, rude, controlling, belittling, and proof he saw her as beneath himself. Women who appreciate the behavior are brain washed and weak.

[monocle]It's polite. Making a scene in public is quite a disgrace.[/monocle]

 

[FurryFury]

Whereas if someone asked me "What sounds good to you?" my answer would be "The ___ looks delicious; I think I'll have that." The idea that I would try tio guess what my date might find appealing and respond based on HIS tastes instead of my own is weird to me.

Different strokes I guess . . .

FF

 

[ownedsubgal]

i have to say i'm surprised by all the negative responses. personally i didn't really read the exchange in the OP as D/s-ish at all, but more basic gentlemanly courtesy. there is a certain code of good manners between male and female that seems to be quickly dying out, particularly here in the west, and that really makes me sad. i rather enjoy being treated like a woman.

 

[FurryFury]

I'm all for good manners which IMO, do NOT include ordering for a near stranger in a restaurant.

FF

 

[Keroin]

edited to add: but then (I've just read the whole thread) - the whole shenanigans that CutieMouse mentions (him driving, even if it's my car; him opening car doors, taking my coat etc etc) I (personally) find very outmoded and frankly risible. Like two people self-consciously playing parts from an earlier period in history. To me, good manners in a man are things like listening attentively and according me intellectual respect. Not doing things my grandma might have expected decades before Women's Lib.

This. Yep.

What would be annoying about it is not so much the actual behaviour but the fact that the man would have to be completely daft to not realize that I'm not "an old fashioned gal". I'm not some coy blushing flower, I'm an open book. And if a man doesn't "get" me in that basic regard then he has obviously been paying zero attention to anything I've said, or written or done. For me, I wouldn't assume the man was trying to PYL me or anything like that, it's not a power issue, it's a "paying attention" issue.

I wouldn't make a scene (that would be bad manners!). I'd just order what I wanted, do my best to enjoy the evening, and move him to the "not interested" column in K's Dating Manifest.

 

[FurryFury]

Agreed. No one drives my car but me. Certainly not some man I've only just met.

The sheer presumption bordering on assholery of ordering for me as if I were some incapable child or something or even to force me to eat what he wants? That shit would NOT fly.

Holding doors, that's fine.

Chair pushing, fine.

Coat taking, fine.

But driving my car or ordering for me, is NOT going to work out well for either of us being together. Nope.

And frankly on a first date I'd rather pay my own way. I'd rather DISCUSS things and decide together on what works for the both of us with no money he'd paid out for me hanging over both our heads.

FF

 

[Cattypuss]

What would be annoying about it is not so much the actual behaviour but the fact that the man would have to be completely daft to not realize that I'm not "an old fashioned gal". I'm not some coy blushing flower, I'm an open book. And if a man doesn't "get" me in that basic regard then he has obviously been paying zero attention to anything I've said, or written or done. For me, I wouldn't assume the man was trying to PYL me or anything like that, it's not a power issue, it's a "paying attention" issue.

Yes! I would be exactly the same - if a man can't tell within seconds of meeting me that I'm not (as K so delicately puts it) an "old fashioned gal", then he's not paying attention - which is the opposite of good manners.

As to being "treated like a woman"? I'd rather be treated like a fully-functioning human being, thanks.

But then I'm a bedroom-only sub/bottom.

 

[redroserecords]

I stumbled across a discussion at FetLife this morning that made me curious...

The following question was posed:

Two people are meeting for a first dinner date. While looking at the menu, the man asks the woman "What sounds good?" The woman responds "X", and when the waiter arrives table side, the man says "The lady would like X; I'll have Y." Was his behavior appropriate or not, and why?

The fascinating thing to me was the disparity of responses - everything from praise for "showing good manners" to "OMG what a douche!" to "Total RED FLAG/he's trying to assume control too quickly!" (Rants about "misogynistic behavior hiding behind acts of chivalry" occurred, as well.)

So - where do good manners fit in this whole BDSM / D/s thing, and how do the dynamics of power impact their use?

Good manners show respect to yourself and the fellow human being you are with. As for how you define good manners and what qualifies as overboard or rude negligence, that is a matter of various factors, like age, culture, educational and social background, etc. and I would guess may even depend on one's personality. So, good luck in trying to please everyone! LOL

Still, I find it interesting that such a strong response was sparked by what to me seems like a harmless situation. He might have been nervous, might have been trying hard to impress her by being polite, could have done a better job by asking her if he should order for her, sure. But none of that would make him rude in my book. In my experience good manners in dating are a dying art and whoever makes an honest effort to cultivate them deserves at least the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Quinn71]

I stumbled across a discussion at FetLife this morning that made me curious...

The following question was posed:

Two people are meeting for a first dinner date. While looking at the menu, the man asks the woman "What sounds good?" The woman responds "X", and when the waiter arrives table side, the man says "The lady would like X; I'll have Y." Was his behavior appropriate or not, and why?

The fascinating thing to me was the disparity of responses - everything from praise for "showing good manners" to "OMG what a douche!" to "Total RED FLAG/he's trying to assume control too quickly!" (Rants about "misogynistic behavior hiding behind acts of chivalry" occurred, as well.)

So - where do good manners fit in this whole BDSM / D/s thing, and how do the dynamics of power impact their use?

If it is a BDSM relationship then He was right in ordering for her, even though he did "allow" her the privilege of making her own choice of what she would have to eat.
When the waiter came, he ordered what she wanted instead of choosing something that He wanted her to have. Then he ordered for himself.

Nothing ill-mannered in this. Just, maybe, a weak Dom.

 

[SimonBrooke]

I stumbled across a discussion at FetLife this morning that made me curious...

The following question was posed:

Two people are meeting for a first dinner date. While looking at the menu, the man asks the woman "What sounds good?" The woman responds "X", and when the waiter arrives table side, the man says "The lady would like X; I'll have Y." Was his behavior appropriate or not, and why?

The fascinating thing to me was the disparity of responses - everything from praise for "showing good manners" to "OMG what a douche!" to "Total RED FLAG/he's trying to assume control too quickly!" (Rants about "misogynistic behavior hiding behind acts of chivalry" occurred, as well.)

So - where do good manners fit in this whole BDSM / D/s thing, and how do the dynamics of power impact their use?

I'm afraid it's the sort of thing I might do without thinking. I was brought up to think this pattern polite - what one did - nothing to do with BDSM, simply ordinary good manners, like holding open a door to a woman, or giving up one's seat on a crowded bus or train. Manners have, of course, changed, but I do sometimes still do it. I'll also normally pick up the bill for a date - even when both of us know that the woman earns as much as I do.

 

[SimonBrooke]

Or maybe I'm archaic to the point of obsolete... In my world if we go someplace together (not meeting at the restaurant) the man drives - even if he's driving my car. He opens the doors (car and building), offers his arm, helps me with my coat, asks what I'll have/orders, pays the bill, and makes sure I get home safely. Its his [dating] job. Then again, I was also raised by a father who told me to always keep a quarter in my purse in case I ever got a flat tire. lol

H'mmmm... I don't think I'd presume to drive someone else's car. Certainly not until we knew one another very well. Cars are quite personal.

 

[ownedsubgal]

I'm all for good manners which IMO, do NOT include ordering for a near stranger in a restaurant.

FF

well from what i read, he did not exactly "order for her," he asked what she wanted and then told the waiter her order. maybe if he had chosen what she was going to eat, that could have been a bit presumptuous as that is definitely "D/s-ish."

but then, i do know perfectly "vanilla" men, born and raised in non-western cultures, who will take it upon themselves to choose what their female date is going to eat and drink at a restaurant, won't allow a female companion to touch a door or walk on the street side of the sidewalk, insist on always paying for everything, etc. of course being the way i am, i greatly appreciate that sort of treatment, but they would often tell me how violently negative other american women responded to stuff that for them was just being a good guy.

 

[bhndblueyes88]

When my boyfriend did this once, I got really really annoyed (although I didn't say anything at the time. We were out with his family and I know him well enough to know he wasn't trying to assume anything). I think he's realized I prefer to make my orders myself, but I've also realized that I really just don't care if he makes my order for me (given that I've said what I wanted).

It's come upon me the realization that it kind of doesn't matter who says my order, as long as I get my food I can be very food-oriented, btw, so that's really all that matters to me when I'm out to eat It's not like he chooses for me and then if the waitress asks for any clarifiers like "how would you like that cooked?" he chooses for me. So why get my panties all up in a bunch. Heck, some days when I'm just feeling tired and blagh, I'd rather him order for me so I don't have to deal with some smiley waitress.

I suppose in reference to the scenario in the OP, I'd have to know what their relationship dynamic was (note, not POWER dynamic). If she doesn't care or prefers to have him order, then I do not see the reason to declare him rude or misogynist. If she does care and has expressed this to him, then obviously he's being quite rude.

Even if the two parties are in a D/s relationship, I think that anything public MUST be agreed upon, particularly in this age of gossip-wildfire. What if the woman was a manager and some men that worked under her were sitting only a couple tables away? It might create work-place problems for her if he was to order for her and it was clear he was doing so from a PYL side of a D/s relationship. Perhaps a big "if", but most people don't have ONLY their personal lives to be concerned about.

Another thought, why the assumption that the person ordering is the PYL (not in this situation, just in general). After all, one could have their pyl order for them as a direction, not an assumption of power. Kings weren't weaker for their couriers. Why must I dirty my splendor speaking to the common waitstaff? *sniffs and raises nose into the air* HARUMPH!!

 

[bhndblueyes88]

Good manners show respect to yourself and the fellow human being you are with. As for how you define good manners and what qualifies as overboard or rude negligence, that is a matter of various factors, like age, culture, educational and social background, etc. and I would guess may even depend on one's personality. So, good luck in trying to please everyone! LOL

This is a very good summary of what "good manners" is, and whether behavior like this is good or bad. It's not about what society feels is "good manners", really...it's what a group of involved people view as being respectful of each other. No single person's opinion is absolute, and you'll find that two people who think the other has good manners either totally agree, or have reached some compromising balance between their differences.

It's when there unreconciled differences that you have problems. My grandmother and I are a good example. She thinks that, as a "child" (i.e. granddaughter), it is highly disrespectful and rude for me to do anything but smile, nod, and agree with everything she says. However, I think I think that her racisms, insulting statements to my loved ones, and treatment of me as a "lesser" are highly disrespectful and rude (to me and gossiped-about parties), and that it is disrespectful to THEM to not defend them against such statements. She believes that respect is magically due to your elders. I believe that respect is earned by everyone and insulting people is not the way to maintain it. She believes that it is disrespectful for a "child" to correct her (politely) or to discuss an opposing view point with her. I believe it is respectful to indulge in intelligent conversation with someone, as opposed to zoning them out or merely humor them when they have a fact wrong.

Since we have so many differences and she is so rigid on hers (I assure you, I have attempted to the best of my ability to bend for her), we will always find the other poorly mannered and difficult to deal with.

 

[Keroin]

I think the point being missed here is that the situation in the OP was a first date.

I don't care if my husband orders my meal for me, if he knows what I want. Sometimes I'll order his meal for him. Meh, whatever. This isn't manners or power exchange, this is two people who know each other very well. Yeesh, I buy his clothes for him for goodness sake, that certainly isn't me being controlling or him being dominant by ordering me to dress him. It's just a realization on both our parts that L + Clothes Shopping = Again, it's about "knowing" each other well.



And a man who tried to drive my truck on a first date...would be walking home.

 

[where]

all the bdsm stuff aside, the guy was rude. The polite thing would have been to ask her what she wanted. Who places the order often depends where you are. most restaurants I've been in, the waiter askes the woman first. If a male companion butted over and ordered for her then that would have been belittling for the woman, at least in the waiter's eyes. and as good manners are about making people feel comfortable, then the man would have shown bad manners.

 

[the captians wench]

I think I'm still somewhat flabbergasted that something so simple is being seen as a D/s issue. The thread at Fet hit 4 pages; the majority opinion being that a man ordering a womans dinner (after asking what she wanted) was creepy, presumptuous, rude, controlling, belittling, and proof he saw her as beneath himself. Women who appreciate the behavior are brain washed and weak.

What.
The.
F*ck?

I read the thread wondering if anyone under 40 has ever even heard of Emily Post or Amy Vanderbilt.

Or maybe I'm archaic to the point of obsolete... In my world if we go someplace together (not meeting at the restaurant) the man drives - even if he's driving my car. He opens the doors (car and building), offers his arm, helps me with my coat, asks what I'll have/orders, pays the bill, and makes sure I get home safely. Its his [dating] job. Then again, I was also raised by a father who told me to always keep a quarter in my purse in case I ever got a flat tire. lol

Your world sounds a lot like how I enjoy my world to work.

It doesn't always happen that way, and in my experience it's happened more with men closer to my mother's age than with mine. Sure they get things like opening doors, but the other things are a foreign concept to most my age I think.

Now, I have been the driver on occasion, but that's usual by his preference and if he's rather not drive in that moment, I have no issues doing that task for him.

When it comes to ordering, I do prefer him to order for me, but I wouldn't care to much for not having an option. i think it's perfectly acceptable the way you described it no matter what date it was and I wouldn't consider it a D/s thing, but now you have me wondering if maybe I should. I mean, if you're on a first date with some one who you might potentially be involved D/s wise with, it might not be a terrible idea to find out how these things that I find normal work in his world, perhaps he does feel this is a direct sign of his "power" or "authority". In that situation I would have an issue.

But honestly, little things like ordering my meal, helping me with my coat, or pushing in my chair for me are the kinds of things that would push a potential over into "consider further" territory.

 

[sb2009]

My only contribution to this thread is that a few responses after the OP someone mentioned that they were chastised for holding a door open. I've read this before - it's like the ultimate in Things Ruined By The Women's Libbers.

Has anyone ever witness some poor schmuck chewed a new asshole for holding open a door? I'm just wondering where this happens...I get doors held for me occasionally, and all the dude gets is a smile and a "thank you" from me.

 

[where]

My only contribution to this thread is that a few responses after the OP someone mentioned that they were chastised for holding a door open. I've read this before - it's like the ultimate in Things Ruined By The Women's Libbers.

Has anyone ever witness some poor schmuck chewed a new asshole for holding open a door? I'm just wondering where this happens...I get doors held for me occasionally, and all the dude gets is a smile and a "thank you" from me.

I don't see why womens libbers should be blamed for stopping people holding doors open. if you go through a door first it's just polite to hold it for whoever follows irrespective of the genders. the only time I've ever taken issue with it was when it was held open for me (as a sweet young thang) and then let go to swing in the face of the older woman following me in in.

 

[FurryFury]

well from what i read, he did not exactly "order for her," he asked what she wanted and then told the waiter her order. maybe if he had chosen what she was going to eat, that could have been a bit presumptuous as that is definitely "D/s-ish."

but then, i do know perfectly "vanilla" men, born and raised in non-western cultures, who will take it upon themselves to choose what their female date is going to eat and drink at a restaurant, won't allow a female companion to touch a door or walk on the street side of the sidewalk, insist on always paying for everything, etc. of course being the way i am, i greatly appreciate that sort of treatment, but they would often tell me how violently negative other american women responded to stuff that for them was just being a good guy.

Again, I say he asked her "what looked good" which is not the same as "what do you want to order / eat" in my book.

FF

 

[FurryFury]

Yes! I would be exactly the same - if a man can't tell within seconds of meeting me that I'm not (as K so delicately puts it) an "old fashioned gal", then he's not paying attention - which is the opposite of good manners.

As to being "treated like a woman"? I'd rather be treated like a fully-functioning human being, thanks.

But then I'm a bedroom-only sub/bottom.

I agree with you.

FF

 

[radepor]

How old were the couple? I think it may matter

I'm male, +60; it was completely normal for a male to order dinner for a female, in my younger days, after he determined what she wanted. Nevertheless, personally, after the first few dates with my wife and later after we married, I let her order-- why? She would often debate with herself and change her mind a time-or-two even while she gave the waiter her order.

God! Does everything have to be about control?

I stumbled across a discussion at FetLife this morning that made me curious...

The following question was posed:

Two people are meeting for a first dinner date. While looking at the menu, the man asks the woman "What sounds good?" The woman responds "X", and when the waiter arrives table side, the man says "The lady would like X; I'll have Y." Was his behavior appropriate or not, and why?

The fascinating thing to me was the disparity of responses - everything from praise for "showing good manners" to "OMG what a douche!" to "Total RED FLAG/he's trying to assume control too quickly!" (Rants about "misogynistic behavior hiding behind acts of chivalry" occurred, as well.)

So - where do good manners fit in this whole BDSM / D/s thing, and how do the dynamics of power impact their use?

 

[the captians wench]

Again, I say he asked her "what looked good" which is not the same as "what do you want to order / eat" in my book.

FF

I think that's another piece that's going to vary from person to person.

For me "what looks good?" is a conversation starter. I usually will pick out two or three things that I'm pondering over and then return the question, "what are you thinking of having?"

Usually that would lead to another question after I've had time to ponder a bit, "have you decided?" or something simular.

So when I read the sinario, I picture this conversation, which has happened many times, accuring and thus I have no issue with the event.

If how ever I list my two or three ponderings, and he chose something out of the three, this would not be acceptable first date behavior to me.

 

[FurryFury]

Yes. I might do that too.

I think that's another piece that's going to vary from person to person.

For me "what looks good?" is a conversation starter. I usually will pick out two or three things that I'm pondering over and then return the question, "what are you thinking of having?"

Usually that would lead to another question after I've had time to ponder a bit, "have you decided?" or something simular.

So when I read the sinario, I picture this conversation, which has happened many times, accuring and thus I have no issue with the event.

If how ever I list my two or three ponderings, and he chose something out of the three, this would not be acceptable first date behavior to me.