Good Manners

[intothewoods]

Who is holding the 50s up as the golden standard of all that is right and proper?

I brought it up to rosco - my point was just that the positive descriptions of the way things used to be tend to be a stereotypical depiction of middle class 1950s rather than a full picture of history. Rosco's response was essentially that the 1950s was basically the last decade before the major shifts of the 60s and 70s, and that's fair, but I still think there is a tendency to describe changes in some linear way -- as if we went from the Victorian era to the 50s. My point is that there have been times in the past when society was less conservative.

 

[KoPilot]

What bothers me most about all of this is that some people here genuinely wish to take away people's personal freedoms to be who they want in lieu of a completely binary and archaic model that forces people into one of two categories all for the express purpose of legitimizing their particular way of life. I mean, who needs tolerance when you could just force everyone to be like you?

Seems awfully insecure to me.

 

[sb2009]

I just want everyone to be happy and shit. As long as them being happy means making someone else unhappy. Unless that person wants to be made unhappy.

But at least find out if I like fois gras before ordering for me, please.

 

[teknight]

Jeez, who let in the Vikings and the Huns? I could swear this started out as a discussion of manners and nowhere in my reading of history can I find a reason to draw on Viking or Hun practices to elucidate a discussion of modern manners.

Or maybe my reading comprehension has slipped badly in my dotage.

Not that I'm pointing fingers, but Braschi....drove me to do it.

my point was that ONE DECADE is being held as some golden standard of they way things are supposed to be. One span of ten or so years, and it's the gold standard of all that is right and proper.

Could it be 'cause the media people were born in the 50s and as such idealize that time period? Is it some sort of Baby Boomer nirvana?
Damn it, I sound like some conspiracy nut.

What bothers me most about all of this is that some people here genuinely wish to take away people's personal freedoms to be who they want in lieu of a completely binary and archaic model that forces people into one of two categories all for the express purpose of legitimizing their particular way of life. I mean, who needs tolerance when you could just force everyone to be like you?

Seems awfully insecure to me.

QFT.
Tolerance means you have to think beyond yourself...and that's a bitch to do.

But at least find out if I like fois gras before ordering for me, please.

Well, do you?

 

[sb2009]

i do, very much. i got addicted to it when I worked my teen years in a really fancy smancy restaurant.

 

[teknight]

i do, very much. i got addicted to it when I worked my teen years in a really fancy smancy restaurant.

Did the customers display manners in the fancy schmancy restaurant?

 

[Stella_Omega]

What bothers me most about all of this is that some people here genuinely wish to take away people's personal freedoms to be who they want in lieu of a completely binary and archaic model that forces people into one of two categories all for the express purpose of legitimizing their particular way of life. I mean, who needs tolerance when you could just force everyone to be like you?

Seems awfully insecure to me.

Well, let 'em wish. They can wish in one hand, spit apple seeds in the other and see which hand grows the apples soonest.

I like the idea of those people being insecure. I remember, very very well what it's like to be made insecure by the binary people of the world. Suck it up, folks. You can always practice your gender-prescribed "good manners" amongst yourselves, whilst I practice basic good manners in public, every day.

 

[JMohegan]

Did the customers display manners in the fancy schmancy restaurant?

The question of manners seems downright inconsequential, in comparison to the force-feeding of geese and ducks. Does it not? Or maybe the question's just thoroughly ironic.

A room full of people, wrapping themselves in a veneer of respectability, while celebrating and perpetuating that revolting practice.

Of course, the same could be said for so many aspects of our society. The veneer of alleged gentility, masking the cruelty that made such "elegance" possible.

 

[00Syd]

The question of manners seems downright inconsequential, in comparison to the force-feeding of geese and ducks. Does it not? Or maybe the question's just thoroughly ironic.

A room full of people, wrapping themselves in a veneer of respectability, while celebrating and perpetuating that revolting practice.

Of course, the same could be said for so many aspects of our society. The veneer of alleged gentility, masking the cruelty that made such "elegance" possible.

Oh, common, now you're just looking for stuff to argue about.

Geese and ducks are delicious. And their livers are especially delicious after force feeding. 'nuff said.

 

[JMohegan]

Oh, common, now you're just looking for stuff to argue about.

Geese and ducks are delicious. And their livers are especially delicious after force feeding. 'nuff said.

Nope. I'm serious.

Delicious isn't the point. It's the cruelty.

Why that doesn't bother you, I can't fathom. Not that I pretend to know you well - obviously, I don't. But you don't seem like a cruel person, on the surface. So why you're comfortable directly supporting such a cruel and thoroughly unnecessary practice is beyond me.

In any case, the notion that any one could support such cruelty, while at the same time being well-mannered, is a notion that I find absurd. But as I said, there's much about our society that I find absurd.

 

[YourCaptor]

Nope. I'm serious.

Delicious isn't the point. It's the cruelty.

Why that doesn't bother you, I can't fathom. Not that I pretend to know you well - obviously, I don't. But you don't seem like a cruel person, on the surface. So why you're comfortable directly supporting such a cruel and thoroughly unnecessary practice is beyond me.

In any case, the notion that any one could support such cruelty, while at the same time being well-mannered, is a notion that I find absurd. But as I said, there's much about our society that I find absurd.

Dude, if we ever stop stuffing ducks the pansyness of humans will be set in stone.

deliciousness > empathy

Seriously, if it's a choice between an hour of supper awesome fell good and some duck I don't give a fuck about, that lives 5 years anyway and shits in its own swimming water, guess what I chose.

If you must, cut it's nerves, but don't charge extra cause I'll go for the cheaper one.

 

[Cattypuss]

deliciousness > empathy

 

[Keroin]

Ditto squared.

 

[where]

Nope. I'm serious.

Delicious isn't the point. It's the cruelty.

Why that doesn't bother you, I can't fathom. Not that I pretend to know you well - obviously, I don't. But you don't seem like a cruel person, on the surface. So why you're comfortable directly supporting such a cruel and thoroughly unnecessary practice is beyond me.

In any case, the notion that any one could support such cruelty, while at the same time being well-mannered, is a notion that I find absurd. But as I said, there's much about our society that I find absurd.

is sentimentality about animals evidence of men becoming effeminized??

OK kidding. I'm absolutely NOT sentimental about animals, but I do think foie gras production is vile and barbaric and even if I did eat offal, no way would I eat that stuff. torturing animals for culinary pleasure strikes me as a little sick.

 

[Cattypuss]

is sentimentality about animals evidence of men becoming effeminized??

OK kidding. I'm absolutely NOT sentimental about animals, but I do think foie gras production is vile and barbaric and even if I did eat offal, no way would I eat that stuff. torturing animals for culinary pleasure strikes me as a little sick.

Yay! Someone spelled it right!

 

[where]

Yay! Someone spelled it right!

musta been a fluke!

don't fluke worms live in livers?

 

[bhndblueyes88]

some fluke worms live in livers. However, I am not sure if there are liver flukes in poultry livers. Once we get to poultry parasites toward the end of the semester, I'll tell you

 

[RJMasters]

your cute little ad hom was amusing, all the more so because you completely failed to actually offer any supporting evidence that boys are becoming feminised or that the bizarre etiquette that osg seems to think is in some form vanilla in origins.

I am glad you were amused by it.

The point of the story was to point out the irony that first of all I find it pretty damn funny that the topic is about good manners. Those who have been most forceful in championing thier view has pretty much wrecked what credibility they so enthusiastically espoused about good manners.

Secondly it was and wasn't an ad hom because I did offer supporting evidence, you just got your heels dug in to far to be objective enough to see it. No the evidence I presented wasn't about feminization of boys/men or what you call the bizarre etiquette of osg. I purposefully stayed away from those two topics and haven't given my opinion on either of them, rather you will note that I mentioned two keywords in the story which I knew you would pickup on because you used them both in a false statement. You said...

"but it's a chimera. it doesn't exist except in the minds of men of a certain age who feel threatened by what may or may not be post-modernity."

Does it really only exist in the minds of men who feel threatened?

You want supporting evidence? This thread is exhibit A of the hate toward those who would even hint that they espouse traditional roles and or values. In other words its ok to be part of the BDSM community or live your life anyway you want to as long as you do not hold any of "those" views, because those who hold such views are ignorant, closed minded, stupid, and bigotted. And history clearly shows how the gay community and women have suffered under that old way.

The fight for women's rights. The fight for gay rights. The fight? What an interesting word to describe something that's a myth... a chimera. Something that only exists in the minds of men of a certain age who feel threatened.

Yet exhibit B, thousands of parents remove their children from public schools each year for a number of reasons, but among the top reasons are parents who "feel threatened", and who do not want their children taught tolerance for the same sex lifestyle which is now required by law to be part of the ciriculum.

Maybe the hate and the hypocrisy is justified. The scorecard is no where near even and there is still a long way to go before equality and acceptance is realised.

but...

It would be insulting for me to sit here and tell you that all the oppression, fear and violence of the past exists only in the minds of women or gays of a certain age who feel threatened. And it would be dishonest.

Equally dishonest is to try to say that the attack of the traditional role of the male is something that only exists in the minds of men of a certain age who feel threatened. Because the traditional male role and any expression there of, is no longer accepted or even tolerated in today's society. Its considered ill mannered and rude to act in an assuming manner because you are a man. I'm not saying whether this is good or bad, I'm simply pointing out that as real change has come to society, the effects on those living in that society are real to, they are not just imagined.

Some, probably most, will adjust and be assemilated. Some will live out their days pretty much disgruntled and some will try to find a place where they can still be themselves and fit. As has been mentioned before, and I agree, I believe this is also one of the reasons you see a migration to the BDSM community. which brings me full circle back to the bizarre etiquette of osg.

I do not think that it is only men in recent years you see coming and exploring the BDSM community, I think traditional minded women also have come here as well. In large part because of the same reasons traditional men have come.

If I were to come to a BDSM board I would not think her comments as a person who identifys herself as being a slave or a submissive as being bizarre. Perhaps if she posted the same comments on a woman's right forum, I would think they were bizarre as it would clearly cause a comotion.

Her views may be uncommon and I may not totally agree with them but they are not bizarre. I certainly didn't think it deserved the dismissive and belittling response it got.

 

[teknight]

The question of manners seems downright inconsequential, in comparison to the force-feeding of geese and ducks. Does it not? Or maybe the question's just thoroughly ironic.

A room full of people, wrapping themselves in a veneer of respectability, while celebrating and perpetuating that revolting practice.

Of course, the same could be said for so many aspects of our society. The veneer of alleged gentility, masking the cruelty that made such "elegance" possible.

JM, I replied to you in the isolated blurt thread, since animal rights aren't actually manners and I wanted to not contribute to another thread jack. I'm turning a new leaf (compared to yesterday) and trying something else out.

The link is below:
http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=35995184&postcount=31446

 

[JMohegan]

If I were to come to a BDSM board I would not think her comments as a person who identifys herself as being a slave or a submissive as being bizarre.

RJ, osg says she is not allowed to go farther than her own mailbox unaccompanied. Never runs errands alone, never does a single thing without an escort. She says she is kept in isolation, and only taken out by her master or others he designates - including the men to whom he whores her out for cash. She also says she has lived with her master for the entirety of her adult existence.

Her presence on this board does not make the lifestyle she describes representative of that which naturally follows when people are dominant or submissive. Further, it is beyond asinine for her, or anyone else, to hold up her experience and extrapolate from that to provide commentary on any "traditional" lifestyle that has ever existed in the United States.

 

[JMohegan]

is sentimentality about animals evidence of men becoming effeminized??

OK kidding. I'm absolutely NOT sentimental about animals, but I do think foie gras production is vile and barbaric and even if I did eat offal, no way would I eat that stuff. torturing animals for culinary pleasure strikes me as a little sick.

I know you were kidding, but given the responses of others, I'll answer that straight.

Empathy is a trait found in men who are secure in their own masculinity.

Bullies are weaklings at heart, and they know it. Hence the desperate attempt to convince otherwise.

 

[teknight]

Empathy is a trait found in men who are secure in their own masculinity.

I wholly agree in the general sense, but how far do we carry this empathy? Who does it apply to...and, more importantly, who/what doesn't it apply to?
I'm asking, not being confrontational.

 

[JMohegan]

I wholly agree in the general sense, but how far do we carry this empathy? Who does it apply to...and, more importantly, who/what doesn't it apply to?
I'm asking, not being confrontational.

It depends.

I'm not being evasive, or flippant. That's my response.

Give me a specific context, and I'll give my opinion on whether, or how much, empathy should be applied in determining what's right and what's wrong.

 

[teknight]

It depends.

I'm not being evasive, or flippant. That's my response.

Give me a specific context, and I'll give my opinion on whether, or how much, empathy should be applied in determining what's right and what's wrong.

What? You can't give a simple 3 word answer? Well then, to you.
(Again, I'm kidding kidding, hence the and )
Let me ask you this:

Is it wrong to want a particular part of the animal to come out a certain way- specifically, is the enlarged liver that is desired for foie gras wrong?

 

[00Syd]

Nope. I'm serious.

Delicious isn't the point. It's the cruelty.

Why that doesn't bother you, I can't fathom. Not that I pretend to know you well - obviously, I don't. But you don't seem like a cruel person, on the surface. So why you're comfortable directly supporting such a cruel and thoroughly unnecessary practice is beyond me.

In any case, the notion that any one could support such cruelty, while at the same time being well-mannered, is a notion that I find absurd. But as I said, there's much about our society that I find absurd.

I have a hard time caring about the comfort level of goddamn ducks that are going to die in two weeks anyway, when there are so many suffering humans that I could spend my time and energy caring about. I'm such a jerk!

I guess I'm a just a dirty, dirty humanist. You know, the kind of filthy person who sees humans as more worthy of my empathy than ducks.

You may ask, why choose? Why not spread your empathy around to all living creatures? Well, I'll tell you. It is because they are delicious and I want to eat them.

Okay! Throw fake blood on my fur coat now and let's get it over with!!