Good Manners

[callinectes2]

Meh, I wish that was the "worst" thing that ever happened to me on a first date.

I don't see what the big deal is either way.

 

[JMohegan]

I think I'm still somewhat flabbergasted that something so simple is being seen as a D/s issue. The thread at Fet hit 4 pages; the majority opinion being that a man ordering a womans dinner (after asking what she wanted) was creepy, presumptuous, rude, controlling, belittling, and proof he saw her as beneath himself. Women who appreciate the behavior are brain washed and weak.

What.
The.
F*ck?

I read the thread wondering if anyone under 40 has ever even heard of Emily Post or Amy Vanderbilt.

Or maybe I'm archaic to the point of obsolete... In my world if we go someplace together (not meeting at the restaurant) the man drives - even if he's driving my car. He opens the doors (car and building), offers his arm, helps me with my coat, asks what I'll have/orders, pays the bill, and makes sure I get home safely. Its his [dating] job. Then again, I was also raised by a father who told me to always keep a quarter in my purse in case I ever got a flat tire. lol

In my world, the host is the person (male or female) who did the inviting, and it is generally accepted as polite for the host to invite the guest to order first. The host orders last, and only orders for him/herself, though he/she does select the wine for the table. The host pays for everything.

I'm 52, as you may recall. But I don't live in Texas.

That's why the type of thing described in the opening post has worked well, for me, as a filter. In a dating situation, I don't see it as a rude/polite thing. It's more like a hot/not thing. Sort of a combination of subtle flirting and testing the waters.

As for why so many alleged control fans seem to react to this so poorly, I chalk that up to the culture of personal ad posting and BDSM myopia. Me Dom, you sub, we're officially D/s now, ready set go. It's just a totally different selection process, combined with an apparent inability to fathom that there may be other legitimate means of establishing control-based relationships.

 

[rosco rathbone]

As for why so many alleged control fans seem to react to this so poorly, I chalk that up to the culture of personal ad posting and BDSM myopia. Me Dom, you sub, we're officially D/s now, ready set go. It's just a totally different selection process, combined with an apparent inability to fathom that there may be other legitimate means of establishing control-based relationships.

Bingo!

 

[ownedsubgal]

But these days it seems like any time a man does something with out first defering, then confirming, then reconfirming and finally having the woman sign off on what ever it is he's doing, then he's showing his control over the situation.

you said it all right there. it's a sad commentary on our culture.

 

[NomadLady]

In my world, the host is the person (male or female) who did the inviting, and it is generally accepted as polite for the host to invite the guest to order first. The host orders last, and only orders for him/herself, though he/she does select the wine for the table. The host pays for everything.

I'm 52, as you may recall. But I don't live in Texas.

That's why the type of thing described in the opening post has worked well, for me, as a filter. In a dating situation, I don't see it as a rude/polite thing. It's more like a hot/not thing. Sort of a combination of subtle flirting and testing the waters.

As for why so many alleged control fans seem to react to this so poorly, I chalk that up to the culture of personal ad posting and BDSM myopia. Me Dom, you sub, we're officially D/s now, ready set go. It's just a totally different selection process, combined with an apparent inability to fathom that there may be other legitimate means of establishing control-based relationships.

Great Post!!!!!!!

 

[Keroin]

But these days it seems like any time a man does something with out first defering, then confirming, then reconfirming and finally having the woman sign off on what ever it is he's doing, then he's showing his control over the situation.

you said it all right there. it's a sad commentary on our culture.

These are ridiculous statements. Just because large segments of western society have chosen to leave behind outdated social code – which was largely predicated on the idea that women were weaker and less capable than men – doesn’t mean that men have been universally emasculated. What it means is that there are now more options out there as far as acceptable behaviour for both men and women.

For the JM’s and Rosco’s and RJ’s, there are still CM’s, Wenchies and OSG’s and others who appreciate their style of manners. It’s just a matter of personality types finding each other.

 

[NomadLady]

For the JM’s and Rosco’s and RJ’s, there are still CM’s, Wenchies and OSG’s and others who appreciate their style of manners. It’s just a matter of personality types finding each other.

Add me to that list....I prefer a man to show those type manners, it just doesn't happen as often as I'd like unless it is with a Dom in my experiences lately.

It reminds me of an episode of "Golden Girls" when Blanche meets a man that had only ever been with his wife, and was now widowed. It bothered Blanche that he didn't try to sleep with her right away....when he finally explained that he wanted to treat her like a "lady"....she finally understood his behavior.
But he practically had to beat her over the head with it....

 

[the captians wench]

These are ridiculous statements. Just because large segments of western society have chosen to leave behind outdated social code – which was largely predicated on the idea that women were weaker and less capable than men – doesn’t mean that men have been universally emasculated. What it means is that there are now more options out there as far as acceptable behaviour for both men and women.

For the JM’s and Rosco’s and RJ’s, there are still CM’s, Wenchies and OSG’s and others who appreciate their style of manners. It’s just a matter of personality types finding each other.

I don't think it's ridiculous at all. I see it all of the time. Growing up I heard how people talked about how my step father was controling because my mother wouldn't make a move with out talking it over with him first.

It's only outdated because we are choosing to recondition the way people think.

I'm not saying that this is nessisarily a bad thing, I benifit from it in several ways. I like being able to earn my own money for instance, and earn the same as male coworkers.

And while I will always be one to want my man "old fashioned", I understand the reasons society is breaking away from that.

 

[YourCaptor]

These are ridiculous statements. Just because large segments of western society have chosen to leave behind outdated social code – which was largely predicated on the idea that women were weaker and less capable than men – doesn’t mean that men have been universally emasculated. What it means is that there are now more options out there as far as acceptable behaviour for both men and women.

For the JM’s and Rosco’s and RJ’s, there are still CM’s, Wenchies and OSG’s and others who appreciate their style of manners. It’s just a matter of personality types finding each other.

Chivalry I think was important cause the alternative was basically rape and pillage. It empowers the woman, in that the man has to work and respect her to get her, he can't just fuck her.

Which is exactly why chivalry is dead these days, cause you don't need to to work or respect them anymore, they fuck anyway. Chivalry is dead and birth control killed it.

 

[where]

there is no "removal of choice." say i'm out with a man outside of my Master...he doesn't know i have a shellfish allergy, and he proceeds to order a shrimp dish for me. i would be still be flattered that he would be taking it upon himself to order for me, say something like, "i'm sorry but i'm allergic to shellfish," and give him the opportunity to pick something else for me. why would that be such a big deal?

it's also particularly odd and disturbing to me that so many people are relegating everyday "vanilla" interactions to the realm of bdsm.

I think your example illustrates that you are putting your world view onto mainstream society and putting a bdsm spin on it. And just because you prefer men to make your eating choices for you, doesn't mean that most people, men and women, follow the same forms of etiquette as you. You construe it as flattery, whereas if you read just about any text on etiquette or good manners, it would be considered rude and ungentlemanly. You are making the assumption the man had thought about what he is ordering you. It could be the shellfish was just the cheapest dish. Or even that he somehow knows about your shellfish allergy.

I would also guess that most men who are not involved with bdsm, would be confused by a woman who seems unwilling or incapable of choosing her own food in a restaurant. I'm dining out next week. I'll test it.

 

[sb2009]

there are some doozies here. Jeeze, a woman orders for herself at a restaurant and now all men are emasculated weaklings ROFL

My husband half the time asks me what on the menu he likes, 'cause he's a lazy ass and sometimes can't focus enough to figure it out. He has his testicles, he really does.

If I'm at a very formal restaurant and my date knows what I want to order, it's nice to follow that protocol. Or at McDs when we say "three cheese burgers, two happy meals and a diet coke" to speed it along ;-)

 

[FurryFury]

This.

Just from the responses on this board I could tell which men here I would not be compatible with, outside of friendship (were I and they single). Doesn't make either one of us assholes, simply people who are not meant to be together.



If a man really wanted to impress me, forget dinner out, cook for me! (This is actually more about survival than manners, however )

I so agree. Though him cooking on a FIRST date might not be something I'd be comfortable with as it would require being at his place or mine.

I'm surprise that THIS thread has shown me who I could never be compatible with so clearly. Damn. I guess I'll have to give up some of those fantasies.

FF

 

[FurryFury]

These are ridiculous statements. Just because large segments of western society have chosen to leave behind outdated social code – which was largely predicated on the idea that women were weaker and less capable than men – doesn’t mean that men have been universally emasculated. What it means is that there are now more options out there as far as acceptable behaviour for both men and women.

For the JM’s and Rosco’s and RJ’s, there are still CM’s, Wenchies and OSG’s and others who appreciate their style of manners. It’s just a matter of personality types finding each other.

Totally agree with you on this.

FF

 

[the captians wench]

there are some doozies here. Jeeze, a woman orders for herself at a restaurant and now all men are emasculated weaklings ROFL

My husband half the time asks me what on the menu he likes, 'cause he's a lazy ass and sometimes can't focus enough to figure it out. He has his testicles, he really does.

If I'm at a very formal restaurant and my date knows what I want to order, it's nice to follow that protocol. Or at McDs when we say "three cheese burgers, two happy meals and a diet coke" to speed it along ;-)

Okay, I think my statement was a little misconstrued.

I'm not saying that a woman ordering for herself emasculates men. What I'm saying is that act is not considered threatening at all, when a man making a jump and ordering for the woman (with or with out her choice already given to him) is viewed as him dominating the situation. That's my point. That when ever a man asserts himself, even slightly, he's suddenly this abusive prick that we need to be on our guard for.

On the contrary, I feel like this trend to not let a man do anything that might make him look even the slightest bit as in a position above a woman lest he be an abuser, holds us down rather than strengthens us as women.

I am perfectly able to order, and even choose my own meals, as well as open my own door and OMG drive . But do I enjoy when a man does that for me? Yes absolutely. Do I find it appealing in a primitive way? Deffo. Do I think less of a man who doesn't do these things? No, but if we are on a date then they would shift into short term status.

I personally believe we have lost something here. But I also enjoy being treated like I'm a fragile being.

And no, it's not just chivalry that has died, but courtesy as well. People being nice to one another, and polite just because it's the right thing has never really happened on a whole. People were polite in public because it was socially expected of them, where it is not anymore, for the most part.

I'm glad that I can be looked upon as an intellectual equal to my male dinner companion, but damn it I want him to treat me like I'll break if I have to push my own chair in, or fumble with my coat.

 

[Keroin]

Chivalry is dead and birth control killed it.

Yay for birth control!

I don't think it's ridiculous at all. I see it all of the time. Growing up I heard how people talked about how my step father was controling because my mother wouldn't make a move with out talking it over with him first.

But you would hear - and I have in these situations - the exact same comments if it were the other way around and your mom was the controlling one. Likely they would have called your stepfather "pussy whipped". People distrust relationships where the power dynamic obviously favours one partner, and tend to comment on it.

It's only outdated because we are choosing to recondition the way people think.

This is called evolution. When I was a kid, people didn't think it was bad manners to throw their garbage out the window of a moving car. Now most people would. As we grow, we learn and we change our thinking and behaviour accordingly.

I'm quite happy that we now recognize that a man does not "need" to open doors, pull out chairs, order food and pay the bill when he goes on a date with a woman. If he "wants" to do those things, and the woman he's with enjoys them...awesome.

You see, that's the difference between then and now - now it's a choice, not an expectation. I LOVE choice.

BTW, if a man opens a door for me, I say "Thank you" and smile. Same as if a woman opens a door for me. And on those rare occassions when L and I go out for a very fancy dinner, just the two of us, he loves to open the door for me and pull out the chair for me, and I am quite happy to go along with it because it makes him happy. It's like we're playing dress up for the night.

I'm not saying that this is nessisarily a bad thing, I benifit from it in several ways. I like being able to earn my own money for instance, and earn the same as male coworkers.

And while I will always be one to want my man "old fashioned", I understand the reasons society is breaking away from that.

Cool. And I want you to have your "old fashioned" man. I just want to live in a world where I can also have my "modern" man. That doesn't mean all men have to line up to have their balls removed. My man is very, very, manly...trust me.

Choice, choice, choice. If I lived in the world OSG dreams of, I would slit my wrists.

 

[Keroin]

And no, it's not just chivalry that has died, but courtesy as well. People being nice to one another, and polite just because it's the right thing has never really happened on a whole. People were polite in public because it was socially expected of them, where it is not anymore, for the most part.

I'm really not picking on you Wenchie, I swear. You know I think you're the cats pajamas but...

Where I live, courtesy is alive and flourishing. This little town is full of friendly polite people who love to treat each other well. Just yesterday, L and me walked to breakfast and on the way we passed two neighbours talking - the one neighbour had gone and shoveled the other neighbour's driveway, without being asked, and he was being thanked for it. Then at the restaurant, I ordered a breakfast wrap and the cook gave me a side of hashbrowns, for free, just because.

This kind of stuff goes on here all the time.

 

[FurryFury]

I know courtesy and manners are not dead because, for one thing I choose to use them. That being said, I don't want anyone to order for me ever unless I ask them too because I have to get a business call or go the the bathroom or something and we are on a tight schedule.

In no way do I want to be seen as fragile by anyone. Being treasured and taken care of is great but I'm not a fragile person in any sense of the word. I'm a capable person. I'm a never stop always survive no matter what kind of person. I'm proud of that.

Men and women both, can be courtly to me in other ways. I'll appreciate it, thank them kindly, and reciprocate. But for me, someone ordering for me without prior discussion about this practice, is being an asshole. They are using a controlling move that I didn't consent to.

Power plays I don't agree to, from people I have no such consent with, will not go down easy with me. I've had people trying to own me and jerk me around my whole life and not in the hot way. Even though I'm submissive both generally, and in particular to the people I consent to, I won't put up with people just making presumptuous moves on me like that. I'd have to call bullshit on that.

Anyway, I'm particular about what I order. I nearly always have a question or two for the waiter before I do so. All that being said, the right person could order for me, if a prior consent existed between us, but otherwise, I'd consider people that tried that shit as just being controlling, and not in the good way, in my estimation.

FF

 

[the captians wench]

I'm really not picking on you Wenchie, I swear. You know I think you're the cats pajamas but...

Where I live, courtesy is alive and flourishing. This little town is full of friendly polite people who love to treat each other well. Just yesterday, L and me walked to breakfast and on the way we passed two neighbours talking - the one neighbour had gone and shoveled the other neighbour's driveway, without being asked, and he was being thanked for it. Then at the restaurant, I ordered a breakfast wrap and the cook gave me a side of hashbrowns, for free, just because.

This kind of stuff goes on here all the time.

I know you'r enot picking on me.

I'm very glad those things exist some where, and they do exist in my piece of suburbia, though not to that extent. How ever I spend the majority of my time in the city and it just seems people get ruder by the day.

I know courtesy and manners are not dead because, for one thing I choose to use them. That being said, I don't want anyone to order for me ever unless I ask them too because I have to get a business call or go the the bathroom or something and we are on a tight schedule.

My point wasn't so much that it's dead every where, but that it is not the social blunder it used to be to let doors shut on one another or not offer to help some one carrying a heavy load of shopping bags. It seems more and more we as a whole are happy to turn our head the other way when some one needs us to step just a tad out of our way to help them. Or perhaps not need, but would benefit from. I know the majority of people on this board are not that way, but the majority of this board is really just a small hand full of people and you would not have to go far to find those who would not do such things being the majority on other boards. That's the nature of forums, they attract like minds.

In no way do I want to be seen as fragile by anyone. Being treasured and taken care of is great but I'm not a fragile person in any sense of the word. I'm a capable person. I'm a never stop always survive no matter what kind of person. I'm proud of that.

I'm not saying that being seen as capable and being seen as fragile have to be independent of one another. I am a very capable person. I've lived the majority of my adult life independent of any one else. I maintain a stable job, am successful in it, pay my own bills every month, and make my own choices every day. I am perfectly able of taking care of myself, but I enjoy the kid gloves all the same.

[/quote]

Power plays I don't agree to, from people I have no such consent with, will not go down easy with me. I've had people trying to own me and jerk me around my whole life and not in the hot way. Even though I'm submissive both generally, and in particular to the people I consent to, I won't put up with people just making presumptuous moves on me like that. I'd have to call bullshit on that.

FF

[/QUOTE]

See, I don't see it as a power play at all. And I think that's what this whole thing boils down to. Why one sees it as a powerplay and one doesn't.

I wonder if the argument were reversed how many would see it as the woman making a power play and how many wouldn't, and would the argument be reversed in some way.

I know my answers, and I'm surprised at my own first response.

 

[ownedsubgal]

I think your example illustrates that you are putting your world view onto mainstream society and putting a bdsm spin on it. And just because you prefer men to make your eating choices for you, doesn't mean that most people, men and women, follow the same forms of etiquette as you. You construe it as flattery, whereas if you read just about any text on etiquette or good manners, it would be considered rude and ungentlemanly. You are making the assumption the man had thought about what he is ordering you. It could be the shellfish was just the cheapest dish. Or even that he somehow knows about your shellfish allergy.

I would also guess that most men who are not involved with bdsm, would be confused by a woman who seems unwilling or incapable of choosing her own food in a restaurant. I'm dining out next week. I'll test it.

first, i don't put a "bdsm spin" on anything...bdsm is not even a part of my lifestyle, but that's neither here nor there with regard to this topic. believe it or not, the type of manners illustrated in the OP used to very much be "mainstream," and it makes me sad that so many have rejected this is a normal interaction to the point where they can only justify it by explaining it away as some form of bdsm, or an example of people with a control fetish. the reality is it's very natural for some people, and moreover, quite preferable to being treated in the way which has now become "mainstream."

i am perfectly capable of choosing my own food in a restaurant (though i do tend to be indecisive, i'll pick something), and ordering for myself if i must. i'm also quite capable of seating myself, opening doors, and walking in a more or less straight line without a gentle hand at the small of my back. but when a man takes it upon himself to do these things, it tells me that he recognizes me as a female. it tells me that he has not succumbed to modern social conditioning which tells us that there is no such thing as men and women, as in all ways we must act and be treated the same. it tells me that he recognizes himself as a man, and is quite comfortable owning that. and to repeat an earlier comment, i like men.

it has nothing to do with bdsm, or even D/s, and nothing to do with dating or whom i would find to be a compatible partner (my brain doesn't even work that way with regard to relationships). it has to do with my being a female who prefers being treated as such, because otherwise i am sharing a space with someone who does not accept me on even the most basic level.

fortunately though, i haven't had many one-on-one experiences with such people...you know the uber-modern "unisex"-minded. perhaps like really does attract like. i find it interesting though that even back in high school my two homosexual friends (one male, one female that lived as male) treated me the same way, and i responded to them in like fashion. they always paid my way when going out (tho i certainly had more cash than either), would refuse to let me lift a thing in their presence, always protected me from bullies or random guys hitting on me, etc. they saw me as very female...and that once meant something precious and delicate to be cared for. now what does it mean? anything at all?

 

[intothewoods]

I still don't think it's necessarily controlling if a man orders your dinner. I really think the most likely reason is that he thinks that is polite. I just don't see a reason to assume the worst in that scenario. Now if he orders for you without inquiring as to what you like or giving you any head's up at all, that's weird.

Btw, I personally could go with the scenario YC described, but then the food and the restaurant better be damn good!

Anyway, that said, I agree with Keroin -- this is really not the end of days or anything. Plenty of women like chivalry and men with more traditional or heteronormative masculine traits.

 

[FurryFury]

See, I don't see it as a power play at all. And I think that's what this whole thing boils down to. Why one sees it as a powerplay and one doesn't.

I wonder if the argument were reversed how many would see it as the woman making a power play and how many wouldn't, and would the argument be reversed in some way.

I know my answers, and I'm surprised at my own first response.

I agree with you that it's interesting who sees it as a power play and who doesn't and why.

Yes, if a woman did that to me or to a male date I'd see it the same way but I'm like that about things generally.

*hug*

FF

 

[Keroin]

I'm very glad those things exist some where, and they do exist in my piece of suburbia, though not to that extent. How ever I spend the majority of my time in the city and it just seems people get ruder by the day.

I watched a TV program once where they set up a situation and secretly filmed people's responses. There was an actor, lying on the ground as if they might be injured or unconscious, on a sidewalk, in the middle of the day.

They performed the experiment in a small town first and a big city second. In the small town EVERY person walking by stopped to make sure the person on the ground was OK, and all seemed genuinely concerned. In the big city, hardly anyone stopped to check on the person on the ground. Some stepped right over them.

 

[FurryFury]

I still don't think it's necessarily controlling if a man orders your dinner. I really think the most likely reason is that he thinks that is polite. I just don't see a reason to assume the worst in that scenario. Now if he orders for you without inquiring as to what you like or giving you any head's up at all, that's weird.

Btw, I personally could go with the scenario YC described, but then the food and the restaurant better be damn good!

Anyway, that said, I agree with Keroin -- this is really not the end of days or anything. Plenty of women like chivalry and men with more traditional or heteronormative masculine traits.

And, in my case, lacto ova veggie. LOL.

I'd actually like to try some wonderful, yummy place that did that.

FF

 

[Braschi]

*quietly applauds the wench*

What annoys me about this sort of situation is that it's an undermining of common courtesy. People have lots the concept of respect and politeness. Granted, a couple of the "old customs" might be a bit out-dated, but the general idea that we can't be courteous because it somehow denigrates women... no, I don't share that.

For starters, the whole, "used to be nice to women because they were thought to be fragile" is a bunch of hogwash. Seriously. That only applied to the Upper Class -toffs- people who could afford to keep women in the house doing nothing. The rest of society had to work bloody hard -as in 16 hours, seven days a week hard- and that included the women. Furthermore, the housewife job did not mean sitting at home doing nothing. Most people lived on farms, where the housewife was not only expected to do the washing up and cooking -and this was back when women had to make their own soap- but supervise the stores for the rest of the year, act as general nurse and doctor to the family, seamstress (no one bought close at the store) and take on a good portion of the work in the household, and the education of the children. Add to that she would often have up to twelve children who would be born with no more anaesthetic than a shot of spirits. If they could afford that. Being a woman used to be a very hard lot, and I am constantly annoyed by "modern women" denigrating their foremothers.

The whole chivalry thing was a way for men to show respect and deference towards women. For example, men taking off their hats, in front of authority figures, at church when they humbled themselves before God, and when greeting women. Let's not forget that the hight of courteous acts towards women came in the Victorian Age, named after Her Imperial Majesty Queen Victoria, the reigning monarch over the largest empire in human history. Granted, by then most of her power was vested in Parliament, but that didn't stop hundreds of thousands of men going into battle for "Queen and Country". Funny how "feminists" conveniently forget those parts of history.

Anyway, that's kind of unrelated. As for the original question, what I'd see as a "reg flag" are people trying to read too much into this man's actions. Clearly he was trying to be courteous and respectful; asking her what she found interesting and then ordering it for her. This probably has a lot more to do with his upbringing, and view of good manners than any intent of trying to "establish dominance". If the pyl had any suspicions about that, she should probably ask. Talk to her partner instead of judging the PYL's character on a single instance. So, people who assume things of others based on one or two actions... that should raise some red flags.

Otherwise, I think society has lots so much of it's value and respect for other people, that when someone actually does show some manners, it comes out so odd that we treat it with suspicion. I think that's just sad.

The PYL/pyl question also raises another interesting thought... say the PYL was a woman. Could it not be an act of service for her pyl to book reservations at her chosen restaurant, hold the door open when entering the establishment, help her with her coat, make sure her food was ordered to her specifications, be educated about the wine list/pairings to pick the perfect bottle, stand when she excused herself from the table, etc? As with many things, I'm thinking intent colors the actions.

I used to chafe at simple acts of courtesy, I remember, like holding a door open, or helping a girl with her coat, for that very reason. I felt they were kind of submissive and servile. Of course after I dug up some history and got some perspective on it (maturity, maybe?) I realized that it was a very good idea. Of course by then I'd got a bad habit, and it's been something of "retraining" myself to become polite again.

Which is exactly why chivalry is dead these days, cause you don't need to to work or respect them anymore, they fuck anyway.

There's where you hit the nail on the head. In order to respect someone, that someone has to be respectable. Unfortunately most people aren't very respectable, or respectful these days

 

[Keroin]

There's where you hit the nail on the head. In order to respect someone, that someone has to be respectable. Unfortunately most people aren't very respectable, or respectful these days

Sooooo...

If a woman enjoys having sex and wants to do so without running the social etiquette maze, she is not worthy of respect?



If you haven't visited already, you might enjoy this thread. Lots of food for thought on all those evil feminists.

http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=718403