Obedience and transparency

[rinka]

In your D/s relationships (current, past, hopefully coming...) is obedience or transparency more important?

Is it more important that the pyl just does as told or that said pyl is open with reactions and emotions.

Are these two in opposition with each other?

If they're both important in your relationship, which comes first? Is pyl supposed to first do as told and later voice emotions or thoughts about it - or voice and process but eventually obey anyway.

What value does transparency have to you?

 

[00Syd]

Transparency, for us, no question.

I don't think that the two are diametrically opposed or anything like that, but for us personally, transparency is a huge part of our relationship, while obedience has little to no importance. I think that this is especially true because we are in an open relationship, and so open and honest communication, and being as clear and transparent as possible about your feelings, is really important. Also because our relationship dynamic is closer to Person/pet than D/s, and, so far, obedience has had very little place in that.

I know that you were asking about obedience/transparency in relation to the pyl, but I find it to be an incredibly valuable quality in my PYL partners. Little is more important to me than knowing that my partner is being open and honest with himself, and with me, about his thoughts and feelings.

Good topic

 

[Netzach]

Depends on the relationship. With my slave it boils down to "get it done"

He can curse me under his breath the whole time and I don't care. In fact I kind of like that idea. To a point.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

In your D/s relationships (current, past, hopefully coming...) is obedience or transparency more important?

Is it more important that the pyl just does as told or that said pyl is open with reactions and emotions.

Are these two in opposition with each other?

If they're both important in your relationship, which comes first? Is pyl supposed to first do as told and later voice emotions or thoughts about it - or voice and process but eventually obey anyway.

What value does transparency have to you?

Definitely a bit of both. When we're together it can very much be a case of 'just getting it done.' I may sook a little at times if I'm not in the mood for something, but he gets what he wants.

But, given that we're not together 24/7, when we're apart, transparency becomes the bigger deal. I need to talk to him, tell him how I feel about things, tell him what I'm up to, how my weight loss mission is going, etc. I know though, that he holds some things back, more to protect me than anything else, but I think he's becoming more open with me.

Transparecy ranks very high for me. I have this deep seated need to know what's going on, what people think, where I stand in the grand scheme of things. It helps me anticipate people, and assign a certain pattern of behaviour to them that I can fit into my world. I don't like unexpected things, things out of the usual. They upset the balance.

 

[MatthewJudeBrown]

Without transparency, everything eventually falls apart. Obedience without transparency is, I feel, an illusory thing -- when the surface appearance is all, big things can happen under the surface without them ever being seen until one day they burst loose. One day that obedient sub will crack and change.

Besides, speaking personally, I love knowing about the struggle to obey. Easy obedience is cute enough, I guess, but is unchallenging, and I get bored of that. I want to take my sub to places that are not entirely comfortable, and I want to know that they're not comfortable when they're there -- and that they relax when I take them through that to a safe place once more.

Without transparency, I may as well just develop a robot that does what I tell it to.

 

[ownedsubgal]

this whole "emotional transparency" thing confuses me. i'm not exactly sure what is meant by the term. does it mean that the submissive must express every minutia of their thoughts and feelings at every moment? because besides being impossible, that sounds rather annoying. does it mean that, in response to a command, the submissive first throws in their two cents, then based upon what they shared, obey or not after? because that sounds rather tedious, and borderline manipulative. so, maybe someone will need to help me with terminology here.

in this house obedience is expected at all times. and that obedience is expected to come without question or hesitation. in fact, that was one of the first rules drilled into my brain as a brand new slave: "obey without question or hesitation." this means that he doesn't want or need to hear whether or not i want to do something, whether or not i feel good about it, doesn't want me asking, "but why?"...just do it. simple enough.

however being two people who are in love with each other and know one another quite well, and who spend everyday of our lives together...feelings are not masked. i am not expected to obey with a smile, it is not desired for me to attempt to mask my feelings before him. if i am struggling with something, he will see it very clearly on my face and in my body language...and he will likely have already known that it was a task which could cause me to struggle so. it is not breaking news to him. obviously that is either exactly what he wants, or he is willing to deal with my suffering in order to accomplish the greater goal. and we do talk about these things...on HIS time. He may explain to me why he subjected me to something difficult, and he may ask me just how something has made me feel. may ask, on his time and at his will, at a time far removed from the moment itself. He is also just as likely never to engage in such a discussion with me, because um he's no idiot, he understands what he puts me through.

 

[MatthewJudeBrown]

That was pretty much what I meant, ownedsubgal. I don't want a sub that masks her feelings. I want the choice of whether to care or not. Her feelings may not influence me in the slightest, but I want to be able to know them if I choose to.

 

[VelvetSin]

Both are important, but transparency is the greater requirement in our relationship. He has made it clear that he would prefer I voice concerns than receive blind obedience that might lead to issues down the line. Disagreement or issues have not come up often, and when they did, my concerns have not always changed his mind. That is a positive either way, though. When my concerns have resulted in him changing his mind, it feels good to know he takes my thoughts into consideration. When they haven't, I'll admit there is satisfaction in having a place, being put in it, and being shown the way through hesitation or fear. While this relationship is a 24/7 D/s, it isn't to the degree of Master/slave, so perhaps that's an important qualifier. In everyday life, we're probably more of a 60/40 exchange that only goes to 100/0 in the bedroom (or wherever we happen to be when the mood strikes).

 

[rinka]

Transparency, for us, no question.

I don't think that the two are diametrically opposed or anything like that, but for us personally, transparency is a huge part of our relationship, while obedience has little to no importance. I think that this is especially true because we are in an open relationship, and so open and honest communication, and being as clear and transparent as possible about your feelings, is really important. Also because our relationship dynamic is closer to Person/pet than D/s, and, so far, obedience has had very little place in that.

I know that you were asking about obedience/transparency in relation to the pyl, but I find it to be an incredibly valuable quality in my PYL partners. Little is more important to me than knowing that my partner is being open and honest with himself, and with me, about his thoughts and feelings.

Good topic

I don't think they're diametrically opposed either, but I do think power exchange relationships might lean more towards one than the other. And it fascinates me.

I asked more in relation to the pyls transparency since that's where it might or might not interact with obedience. Mutual openness and honesty is another form of transparency maybe. Though I suppose there may often be a difference in how much of that is expected from each party in the PE relationship as well.

Depends on the relationship. With my slave it boils down to "get it done"

He can curse me under his breath the whole time and I don't care. In fact I kind of like that idea. To a point.

I can see how making someone do stuff they hate for you can have a huge appeal for a PYL. But do you want him to show you if he hates it, enjoys it or is just ok with it? Do you feed a lot off that response or more off of your plan being carried out?

Definitely a bit of both. When we're together it can very much be a case of 'just getting it done.' I may sook a little at times if I'm not in the mood for something, but he gets what he wants.

But, given that we're not together 24/7, when we're apart, transparency becomes the bigger deal. I need to talk to him, tell him how I feel about things, tell him what I'm up to, how my weight loss mission is going, etc. I know though, that he holds some things back, more to protect me than anything else, but I think he's becoming more open with me.

Transparecy ranks very high for me. I have this deep seated need to know what's going on, what people think, where I stand in the grand scheme of things. It helps me anticipate people, and assign a certain pattern of behaviour to them that I can fit into my world. I don't like unexpected things, things out of the usual. They upset the balance.

I need to know and understand too, and can often get caught up in the analysis of things. But I guess I somewhere want someone to now and then say "shut up and do as you're told".

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

I need to know and understand too, and can often get caught up in the analysis of things. But I guess I somewhere want someone to now and then say "shut up and do as you're told".

My need to know and understand is also more world related. And it's probably more about consistency than transparency. That transparency is that they're always showing the same behaviour set.

Consistent behaviour helps me just shut up and do as I'm told. I like routine, and rituals and structure.

 

[chy_girl]

They are equally important in my relationship. I am never to fake enjoyment or withhold strong feelings - even in a task I don't like. But there are appropriate ways of dealing with strong feelings depending on the environment.

When we are out if I am given a task I despise, they certainly know it from the expression on my face and I can be slightly stubborn about it. But I do it and there isn't any behavior that would draw massive amounts of attention to the fact. It's more of a private pout than a tantrum, but when it is time to complete the task or directive it is carried out with grace and dignity for the world to see.

Privately... LOL - It's a good thing that my People find my foot stomping tantrums mostly amusing and tolerate them well. But the saving grace is that the entire time I am stomping, yelling, trying to poke at their buttons and loudly refusing to do the task I am doing so while completing the task.

They know that my opinions are firm, my personality can be forceful, and I can be more stubborn than an old Mississippi mule. That's part of who I am and they aren't interested in turning me into an injured mouse. But they are clear on appropriate ways of handling things in public verses what can happen in private. And frankly, I agree with them. I can be seven different kinds of pissed off, but I would never want to treat them in a way that would reflect poorly on them in the community. They deserve better than that.

 

[rinka]

Without transparency, everything eventually falls apart. Obedience without transparency is, I feel, an illusory thing -- when the surface appearance is all, big things can happen under the surface without them ever being seen until one day they burst loose. One day that obedient sub will crack and change.

Besides, speaking personally, I love knowing about the struggle to obey. Easy obedience is cute enough, I guess, but is unchallenging, and I get bored of that. I want to take my sub to places that are not entirely comfortable, and I want to know that they're not comfortable when they're there -- and that they relax when I take them through that to a safe place once more.

Without transparency, I may as well just develop a robot that does what I tell it to.

Sounds like you primarily get a kick out of your sub's reactions, more than out of being obeyed. Transparency 1 point.

this whole "emotional transparency" thing confuses me. i'm not exactly sure what is meant by the term. does it mean that the submissive must express every minutia of their thoughts and feelings at every moment? because besides being impossible, that sounds rather annoying. does it mean that, in response to a command, the submissive first throws in their two cents, then based upon what they shared, obey or not after? because that sounds rather tedious, and borderline manipulative. so, maybe someone will need to help me with terminology here.

in this house obedience is expected at all times. and that obedience is expected to come without question or hesitation. in fact, that was one of the first rules drilled into my brain as a brand new slave: "obey without question or hesitation." this means that he doesn't want or need to hear whether or not i want to do something, whether or not i feel good about it, doesn't want me asking, "but why?"...just do it. simple enough.

however being two people who are in love with each other and know one another quite well, and who spend everyday of our lives together...feelings are not masked. i am not expected to obey with a smile, it is not desired for me to attempt to mask my feelings before him. if i am struggling with something, he will see it very clearly on my face and in my body language...and he will likely have already known that it was a task which could cause me to struggle so. it is not breaking news to him. obviously that is either exactly what he wants, or he is willing to deal with my suffering in order to accomplish the greater goal. and we do talk about these things...on HIS time. He may explain to me why he subjected me to something difficult, and he may ask me just how something has made me feel. may ask, on his time and at his will, at a time far removed from the moment itself. He is also just as likely never to engage in such a discussion with me, because um he's no idiot, he understands what he puts me through.

I don't think expressing every thought or feeling every minute is desirable or even possible for anyone.

From this and previous posts from you I'd say it sounds like your relationship is clearly geared towards obedience on this scale.

You describe quite beautifully the transparency that comes from knowing each other really well.

That was pretty much what I meant, ownedsubgal. I don't want a sub that masks her feelings. I want the choice of whether to care or not. Her feelings may not influence me in the slightest, but I want to be able to know them if I choose to.

Both are important, but transparency is the greater requirement in our relationship. He has made it clear that he would prefer I voice concerns than receive blind obedience that might lead to issues down the line. Disagreement or issues have not come up often, and when they did, my concerns have not always changed his mind. That is a positive either way, though. When my concerns have resulted in him changing his mind, it feels good to know he takes my thoughts into consideration. When they haven't, I'll admit there is satisfaction in having a place, being put in it, and being shown the way through hesitation or fear. While this relationship is a 24/7 D/s, it isn't to the degree of Master/slave, so perhaps that's an important qualifier. In everyday life, we're probably more of a 60/40 exchange that only goes to 100/0 in the bedroom (or wherever we happen to be when the mood strikes).

Maybe it's about being seen and heard. There are so many different aspects in this:
Being allowed or required to be transparent
To what degree the emotional state and process of a pyl influences the PYL
Does obedience inspite of clear discomfort have a higher value?

Lots of interesting stuff, for me anyway.

 

[rinka]

My need to know and understand is also more world related. And it's probably more about consistency than transparency. That transparency is that they're always showing the same behaviour set.

Consistent behaviour helps me just shut up and do as I'm told. I like routine, and rituals and structure.

Okay, so we're diametrically opposed...

I suck at structure and consistency.

I just like to twist and turn everything inside out.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

Okay, so we're diametrically opposed...

I suck at structure and consistency.

I just like to twist and turn everything inside out.

I adore it, it's my safe place.

I loathe boredom though.

I also tend to over think and over analyse and worry too much about stuff. I like to pull everything apart, understand how it works, and then put it back together again. It's part of my need to know that everything in my environment is controlled, if not by me, then by someone I trust.

 

[chy_girl]

I adore it, it's my safe place.

I loathe boredom though.

I also tend to over think and over analyse and worry too much about stuff. I like to pull everything apart, understand how it works, and then put it back together again. It's part of my need to know that everything in my environment is controlled, if not by me, then by someone I trust.

^LIKELIKELIKELIKELIKE!!!
We really need a like button.

So does it drive your PYL as nuts as it does mine?

 

[KoPilot]

Transparency, for us, no question.

I don't think that the two are diametrically opposed or anything like that, but for us personally, transparency is a huge part of our relationship, while obedience has little to no importance. I think that this is especially true because we are in an open relationship, and so open and honest communication, and being as clear and transparent as possible about your feelings, is really important. Also because our relationship dynamic is closer to Person/pet than D/s, and, so far, obedience has had very little place in that.

I know that you were asking about obedience/transparency in relation to the pyl, but I find it to be an incredibly valuable quality in my PYL partners. Little is more important to me than knowing that my partner is being open and honest with himself, and with me, about his thoughts and feelings.

Good topic

This is very us. Though the level of emotional transparency we have is directly related to being in an LDR. He can't see my body language; he can only know what I tell him. As such, we've settled into a method of verbal communication that works well for the both of us, and currently, it's the meat of our relationship.

This might change down the road? But with my tendency to brat, I can't really see perfect obedience ever becoming a reality. ;P

 

[KoPilot]

I adore it, it's my safe place.

I loathe boredom though.

I also tend to over think and over analyse and worry too much about stuff. I like to pull everything apart, understand how it works, and then put it back together again. It's part of my need to know that everything in my environment is controlled, if not by me, then by someone I trust.

And yes, this!

Sometimes doing that will result in my digging myself a nasty hole that I can't get out of, and so at times I'll call him up, blubbering pathetically about needing him to tell me to turn my brain off.

Cause I know that if he tells me to, I will.

 

[rinka]

They are equally important in my relationship. I am never to fake enjoyment or withhold strong feelings - even in a task I don't like. But there are appropriate ways of dealing with strong feelings depending on the environment.

When we are out if I am given a task I despise, they certainly know it from the expression on my face and I can be slightly stubborn about it. But I do it and there isn't any behavior that would draw massive amounts of attention to the fact. It's more of a private pout than a tantrum, but when it is time to complete the task or directive it is carried out with grace and dignity for the world to see.

Privately... LOL - It's a good thing that my People find my foot stomping tantrums mostly amusing and tolerate them well. But the saving grace is that the entire time I am stomping, yelling, trying to poke at their buttons and loudly refusing to do the task I am doing so while completing the task.

They know that my opinions are firm, my personality can be forceful, and I can be more stubborn than an old Mississippi mule. That's part of who I am and they aren't interested in turning me into an injured mouse. But they are clear on appropriate ways of handling things in public verses what can happen in private. And frankly, I agree with them. I can be seven different kinds of pissed off, but I would never want to treat them in a way that would reflect poorly on them in the community. They deserve better than that.

During the little amount of public play I've experienced I definitely held back on my responses.

And tantrums are usually best served in private, and steaming hot.

I've never had a tantrum and still been obeying and carrying out a task, though. That's some impressive simultaneous capacity!*

*Possibly not the right term, but...

 

[rinka]

This is very us. Though the level of emotional transparency we have is directly related to being in an LDR. He can't see my body language; he can only know what I tell him. As such, we've settled into a method of verbal communication that works well for the both of us, and currently, it's the meat of our relationship.

This might change down the road? But with my tendency to brat, I can't really see perfect obedience ever becoming a reality. ;P

You don't even talk on cam? That must make it really challenging to read each other.

I know I often have excessively transparent body language. Even in conversations. I wiggle legs and move my eyes and blush and give all sorts of visual hints about my thoughts and emotions.

 

[VelvetSin]

I adore it, it's my safe place.

I loathe boredom though.

I also tend to over think and over analyse and worry too much about stuff. I like to pull everything apart, understand how it works, and then put it back together again. It's part of my need to know that everything in my environment is controlled, if not by me, then by someone I trust.

This! This is exactly it! And like KoPilot said, if he tells me to stop thinking and just do it, I can. Unless or until he says that, I churn and churn until I figure it out.

As for the reasons or motivation behind the transparency requirement, he has different reasons depending on the situation or circumstance. Sometimes it's a safety deal. He knows me very well and can usually predict my reaction on any given thing, but I have some quirks / history / freak-out triggers that leave things a bit variable sometimes that even I can't predict until in that moment.

Other times, it's because it amuses him. The only time the emotional state or thought process influences his thinking consistently is when it comes to a safety (emotional, he's better at judging physical than I am) concern. If it's just a "I don't want to" or "I don't like that," he's very inconsistent in whether my opinion has any influence. He may be feeling generous or sadistic or stubborn or whatever, and it depends on what sort of a day he's had, what sort of a mood he wants to put me in, the alignment of the stars, etc.

We haven't done any public play, so that hasn't been a concern yet. If and when we do, the thought of possibly embarrassing him by throwing a fit is far more appalling to me than suffering some personal discomfort (emotional that is, as a bit of a budding pain slut, I'm usually more eager than is probably sane for the things he thinks up for anything physical so can't see much resistance there). I also trust him enough not to push any significant buttons that would require that kind of dilemma in public.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

^LIKELIKELIKELIKELIKE!!!
We really need a like button.

So does it drive your PYL as nuts as it does mine?

Yes, but he's insanely tolerant of me and my crazy. And still likes looking after me.

 

[KoPilot]

You don't even talk on cam? That must make it really challenging to read each other.

I know I often have excessively transparent body language. Even in conversations. I wiggle legs and move my eyes and blush and give all sorts of visual hints about my thoughts and emotions.

We actually tried it for a couple of months and it didn't really work out too well. Just a resounding "meh".

I do enjoy being forced to vocalize everything, though. Especially the things I'm embarrassed about. I can't rely on body language and hope for the best; I've got to clearly state every fantasy, desire, and emotion, otherwise I've held back and hidden something from him.

 

[chy_girl]

During the little amount of public play I've experienced I definitely held back on my responses.

And tantrums are usually best served in private, and steaming hot.

I've never had a tantrum and still been obeying and carrying out a task, though. That's some impressive simultaneous capacity!*

*Possibly not the right term, but...

It's only things that run along the lines of insolent and disrespect that I hold in check during public events. And some of my sammy-ness depending on the venue and how many of the people actually know us. Everything else is fair game - even minor pouts - so long as I behave appropriately and respect any consequence I earn. But I also have an obligation to pull one of them aside and start a discussion if something is off. And telling them if a kind of play isn't ok with me is mandatory, no matter who is standing around. Yeah, failure on those last two get me in hella trouble.

LOL - My tantrums tend to be like a flash bang - they burn hot and quick and are usually over fairly quickly. And they'll freely acknowledge that I will do what I'm told... I just need to grumble and bitch about it first. Any more they just stand back and let me go till the pout or my anger burns out then it's back to the regularly scheduled programing.

 

[chy_girl]

Yes, but he's insanely tolerant of me and my crazy. And still likes looking after me.

So do you have a way of explaining why the crazy is mandatory? Because I'm having issues explaining why an orange is an orange instead of a kumquat to someone who's never seen either.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

Other times, it's because it amuses him. The only time the emotional state or thought process influences his thinking consistently is when it comes to a safety (emotional, he's better at judging physical than I am) concern. If it's just a "I don't want to" or "I don't like that," he's very inconsistent in whether my opinion has any influence. He may be feeling generous or sadistic or stubborn or whatever, and it depends on what sort of a day he's had, what sort of a mood he wants to put me in, the alignment of the stars, etc.

I know how that goes. Sometimes I get what I ask for, sometimes no. Either way it's all good.

He'll also occasionally ask if I'm happy with things overall, or if there's anything I'd like to change. However he's quick to mention that it may or may not change things, he just likes to know how I'm travelling.