What is the perfect body?

[bailadora]

The idea for this thread started with the discussion going on in aimouse's penis enlargement thread in the HT forum. Specifically :

• It made me wonder why we buy into the idea that bigger is better (whether it refers to a penis or a woman's breasts)?
• It also made me wonder why we seem to accept the westernized concept of the perfect body when only a very small percentage of the world's population fits this image.
• Why can't we reject this idealized version and love our bodies the way they are?

I think this is something we've all struggled with whether we are male or female and I would be very interested in your thoughts. Thanks!

 

[rosco rathbone]

What's so strange about a very small number of cases of anything matching a perfect ideal?

 

[bailadora]

Because if it is an unattainable goal for so many people - what good is it as the standard by which the rest of us are measured? It leads to unrealistic expectations that can have a negative impact on our self-esteem and our health.

I remember seeing an interview with Heidi Klum, during which she mentioned how much airbrushing had to be done to one of her photos before it was published in the ad campaign for a particular product. This should serve to show us just how fake the "ideal" is. And yet - so many of us still buy into it.

 

[JamieB]

I think women look at the alleged ideal and tell themselves, "If I don't look like that no one will like me." Men do it too, to a lesser extent, going "Look at this feeble little love tool. No woman is going to want this thing."

I think people are far less judgemental than we imagine. Sure, there are women who like big huge love tools and men who like big huge breasts, but if you go through a couple of pic threads, they all seem to go like this:

"Here's a picture of my love-tool/breasts. Please be kind...I've never done this before and I know I'm no Matthew McCough-on-me/Paz Vega."

Postings immediately ensue:

"WOW! You're hot! Please show us more!"
"Holy smokes, that is a great looking rack/sausage!"
"I'd love to ride/get ridden by that!"

OP chimes in: "Wow! Thanks! You're all so great for my ego! Here are a few more!"

I think it comes down to this: People worry too much about not being the so-called ideal body. We're all our own harshest critics.

My $.02

J

 

[rosco rathbone]

Because if it is an unattainable goal for so many people - what good is it as the standard by which the rest of us are measured? It leads to unrealistic expectations that can have a negative impact on our self-esteem and our health.

I remember seeing an interview with Heidi Klum, during which she mentioned how much airbrushing had to be done to one of her photos before it was published in the ad campaign for a particular product. This should serve to show us just how fake the "ideal" is. And yet - so many of us still buy into it.

OK, so "accept" in the sense of "strive for" instead of "hold as standard of perfection".

 

[bailadora]

OK, so "accept" in the sense of "strive for" instead of "hold as standard of perfection".

Not much time to go into further detail - so will have to post more later. But why "strive for " an unrealistic goal? And I have to say that the ideal is portrayed as the standard - at least for women. Case in point: A while back, Pierce Brosnan's new wife was cruelly attacked by the entertainment media for wearing a bikini out in public. The reason: she is a full figured woman who doesn't have cellulite free skin. The message was crystal clear - she failed to live up to the "standard" thus: A)she was considered neither pretty enough nor sexy enough to wear a bikini, B) not worthy to be married to him (the sarcastic title of "Bond's New Girl" and C) she was held up for public ridicule as a result.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

It's an interesting debate because in the west, where as a society we have such problems with over indulgence and obesity, you'd think that holding up slim people as an ideal would be a positive thing to do. As it stands, we hold up images of supermodels and celebrities, both male and female, who have physiques that are unattainable unless you have a personal trainer, chef, stylist and cocaine addiction.

All this appears to do is prompt the average person to say 'I'll never look like that so why bother?' and reach for the burgers and chocolate.

For me, natural beauty that radiates health is more attractive than anything else. People like Kate Moss and Amy Winehouse just invoke pity in me. I genuinely do not find them attractive and the same goes for 99% of catwalk models. 99.9% of people are not meant to be that thin and only a very few manage to look anything other than emaciated to me.

The European Union are bringing in new laws governing the fashion industry and in particular the BMI of catwalk models. The plan is to ban models from the European shows who have a BMI below a certain level. I think it's a start. Also, fashion houses and modelling agencies are to become legally accountable if there found to be an endemic culture of drug taking or if a model is clinically diagnosed with an eating disorder. They must have documented evidence to show that concerns were raised and the model was encouraged to maintain a healthy weight and seek medical or psychiatric help in order to do so.

I don't know the details and I apologise if this is deemed to be less than relevant but I thought it worth mentioning.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Not much time to go into further detail - so will have to post more later. But why "strive for " an unrealistic goal? And I have to say that the ideal is portrayed as the standard - at least for women. Case in point: A while back, Pierce Brosnan's new wife was cruelly attacked by the entertainment media for wearing a bikini out in public. The reason: she is a full figured woman who doesn't have cellulite free skin. The message was crystal clear - she failed to live up to the "standard" thus: A)she was considered neither pretty enough nor sexy enough to wear a bikini, B) not worthy to be married to him (the sarcastic title of "Bond's New Girl" and C) she was held up for public ridicule as a result.

My ex was a managing editor at several New York fashion mags and I can tell you from first hand experience that many of those "standards" are set by misogynistic gay men.

 

[bailadora]

As it stands, we hold up images of supermodels and celebrities, both male and female, who have physiques that are unattainable unless you have a personal trainer, chef, stylist and cocaine addiction.

Dermatologist and plastic surgeon should be added to that list, because the alleged female ideal (thanks, Jaime) is also very youthful in appearance.

99.9% of people are not meant to be that thin and only a very few manage to look anything other than emaciated to me.

I agree with you on this. The "skinnier is better" mentality seems to be such a entrenched concept within the female psyche that even those who look just fine are falling victim to it. I liked the way Victoria Beckham looked when she was Posh Spice. Nowadays - she just looks skeletal, IMO.

The European Union are bringing in new laws governing the fashion industry and in particular the BMI of catwalk models. The plan is to ban models from the European shows who have a BMI below a certain level. I think it's a start. Also, fashion houses and modelling agencies are to become legally accountable if there found to be an endemic culture of drug taking or if a model is clinically diagnosed with an eating disorder. They must have documented evidence to show that concerns were raised and the model was encouraged to maintain a healthy weight and seek medical or psychiatric help in order to do so.

I don't know the details and I apologise if this is deemed to be less than relevant but I thought it worth mentioning.

Actually, Velvet - I think this is quite relevant. There's been much debate in the US fashion industry as to whether or not to follow suite. I am all for people wanting to look their best. That being said, when you are constantly bombarded from all sides with images of the alleged ideal woman; it becomes easy to lose your perspective of what is realistic and healthy for your particular situation and body.

 

[bailadora]

I think it comes down to this: People worry too much about not being the so-called ideal body. We're all our own harshest critics.

My $.02

J

I agree with you on this. But I think this happens because on some level, we actually buy into the idea that in order to be sexy, attractive, desirable, etc., we're supposed to look like the alleged ideal.

On most days - I am fairly content with my appearance. I know that my husband loves me and he frequently demonstrates through words and actions his attraction to me. But there is no denying that there are also aspects of my body that I wish were different. I'm no longer a spring chicken and it is starting to become more obvious. I have way more silver in my hair than I'd like and since I am a brunette it is readily apparent. To me - each strand is like a glaring beacon screaming "Look at me, ; look at me". Despite taking good care of my skin - tiny lines are starting to appear at the corners of my eyes. I've also had kids and it's reflected in my abdomen, hips and bust. The skin is not as firm and I have more stretch marks than a Texas road map has lines. There is no way in hell I would ever bare my midriff in public. Suffice it to say "the girls" are living considerably farther south and are definitely not as perky as they used to be. Some things are simple to change (such as hair color) - while others require more risk that I am willing to take (botox injections and/or surgery).

My whole point to this ramble is this: Logically, I know that I look as I should for where I am in life. But despite assurances from my husband, sometimes deep within me there is doubt that I don't look as good as I once did. And it bothers me that it bothers me (if that makes sense). Why can't I just say "Hell with the ideal - I look pretty damn good"?

I am teaching my kids (especially my daughters) that a person's beauty is not inherent in their physical appearance. Yet when I find myself worrying over the things I do - I feel like such a hypocrite.

 

[Bluestreak363]

I have a unique perspective on this subject. I'm a formerly obese person - at my worst, I was 5'6", 210-lbs., over 35% body fat, and I had NINE prescriptions to combat the effect of obesity on my body.

In 2003, I grew weary of being tired, fat and sick. After a great deal of personal research and self-education, I began a physique transformation.

By the end of 2003, I weighed in a 150-lbs. and had less than 10% body fat. I even had the much sought after six pack, which I maintain to this day.

Before.

After.

It's more than Narcissism at work. People go into exercise and dieting thinking it'll be a physical transformation, that they'll lose weight, but they soon quickly learn that it's MUCH more than just weight loss.

I'm amazed at the power of taking control of your body and changing it for the better. To make a physique transformation, to go from fat person to lean person, or skinny person to muscular person, is absolutely life-changing.

If you can change your body, you can change anything. Many naysayers like to look at those of us leading a healthy, active, physical lifestyle and call it Narcissism. They say we're "shallow" and "superficial".

What they don't understand is the depth, breadth, power, and the life-altering effects of the amazing process of shedding society's corporate-driven ignorance. It's an amazing process.

Most psychologists believe our personality is set in stone by the age of five. I think there's some truth to that, at least for the genetic or biogenic influences of personality development.

But those that have been through a physique transformation may argue with the environmental aspects of the argument. We've seen changes. Big ones. And if environment affects personality, what happens when the environment radically changes?

That's what happens when you lose a lot of fat. You never realized how differently the world treats you when you're overweight. It's a different planet when you're lean and have some muscle.

Fat people are automatically assumed to be lazy and stupid. And in many cases, let's be honest - they are. They're either weak-willed, uneducated, or some combination of both (as well as many other factors). The thing is, sometimes even the smart, strong people get fat - we've all seen the high school jock whose once-proud, strong chest has slid down to his waistline. But once those formerly fit people regain their bodies, their eyes are opened in a way no other person can understand.

So what happens when the world suddenly stops seeing you as fat or unattractive, and begins to see you as smart, hard-working, and more attractive?

Well, your environment changes radically. And if your environment is suddenly very different, then your personality and outlook on life changes too. Not only have you gone through personal growth by simply making the transformation, you make another leap when the world starts to treat you differently. These effects are all encompassing. From how employers see you to how the opposite sex sees you, from how you're treated at a retail store to how your friends see you, the world simply shifts.

Fitness and being in-shape, taking care of our bodies, eating right, and passing that passion on to others is not a shallow endeavor! It is foundational life enhancement and personal growth. It is, without a doubt, a form of enlightenment.

I've lived in both worlds - I was the ugly duckling who eventually (at age 29) transformed into the beautiful swan. I grew up as the fat, ugly kid that the pretty girls ignored. Today, I'm the guy they wish they had the most. Too late. Today, I'm a very successful engineer, I own two sports cars, a classic convertible, my truck, a nice home, and my wife is a screaming hottie herself who followed my lead and lost over 30-lbs herself (she wears a smaller size at age 34 than she did in high school). I've inspired my best friend to lose 40-lbs. My boss lost 30-lbs. at my advice (I went on to become a personal trainer).

That's why I'm so passionate about every aspect of physique transformation. If you've experienced it, then you know what I'm talking about. If you haven't, then I invite you to. Come see the other side. Make no mistake, it's hard work, but the results are beyond your wildest dreams - all from going to the gym and eating right.

-R

 

[bailadora]

Blue: thank you for sharing your story. I have often wondered if men felt as pressured as women do to conform to a certain body ideal.

Fitness and being in-shape, taking care of our bodies, eating right, and passing that passion on to others is not a shallow endeavor! It is foundational life enhancement and personal growth. It is, without a doubt, a form of enlightenment.

Taking care of oneself is certainly a worthy goal and I have no issue with that at all. What does concern me is the tendency (especially among women) to lose sight of what is realistic for their particular situation. Would you not agree that what is a healthy weight or build for one person may not necessarily be so for another?

I am a small woman (in height, weight and frame). I inherited my dad's high metabolism and have never had to struggle with my weight. Despite bearing three children, I still wear the same size I did at age 20 and I am now speeding towards my 40's. I mention all of this not to brag, but as background to the following:I was talking with a friend awhile back and she mentioned that she was upset because she had regained some weight that she had worked very hard to lose. The gain was not readily apparent to me, but she was clearly very distressed about it. And then she said - " I wish I was tiny like you". This floored me because my friend is a remarkably beautiful woman. She is physically fit and toned and maintains a very healthy lifestyle. She is also 6 inches taller than I am and has a larger bone structure. She would look terrible if she were my weight. Truth be told - she's also 6 years younger than I am and I often wish I looked more like her.

My point is that the western mainstream media portrays feminine beauty as being young, busty and as skinny as a rake. They portray masculinity as being young, built like Mr. Olympus and hung like a horse. Certainly this is one particular category, but the honest to God truth is that due to different body types, not everyone can look like that nor would it necessarily be healthy for them to do so. IMO - beauty comes in all shapes, sizes and ages and should be represented just as much as the current "ideal".

 

[Bluestreak363]

Blue: thank you for sharing your story. I have often wondered if men felt as pressured as women do to conform to a certain body ideal.

Men are under pressure, but they're not nearly as scrutinized as women. Yet men, like women, all aspire towards certain physical attributes considered "beautiful". Abs, for one. Not all men have the correct build or are able to achieve the leanness required to obtain (and sustain) the classic "six-pack" look. But if you ask a bunch of guys what physical attributes they want to have? Abs will be one of the top five answers, I guarantee you - just as most women wish for smaller waists and firmer breasts.

But it's a double-edged sword. We're constantly bombarded with images of what's considered sexy - but at the same time, we're also inundated with nothing but unhealthy choices for food consumption - and "Lean Cuisine" or the other so-called "health foods" don't count - they're just as bad a choice as most other advertised foods because of sodium and preservative content. They load up your liver with garbage.

Yet in advertising, we're presented to mutually exclusive items side by side - who wouldn't be confused?. In other words, we're told what is sexy by Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie while they sign endorsement contracts for restaurants and food chains that are very unhealthy. So we have our popular icons, the pictures of beauty and fitness, pimping crap that is detrimental to the average person achieving a stellar body. You simply can't achieve the common physical manifestation of sexy - male or female - when you're elbow-deep in a bag of junk food or eating wings at Hooters three nights a week.

Taking care of oneself is certainly a worthy goal and I have no issue with that at all. What does concern me is the tendency (especially among women) to lose sight of what is realistic for their particular situation. Would you not agree that what is a healthy weight or build for one person may not necessarily be so for another?

Absolutely. Different people will achieve varying results due to a number of factors, mainly age, genetics, somatotype, and willingness to do the work and make the necessary lifestyle changes to achieve a societally accepted "sexy" body.

But I do, however, believe wholeheartedly that people should strive to find the best body they can naturally achieve. The enlightenment you'll discover along the way is astounding, and it's all borne of something as simple as lifting a bunch of plates and bars in a gym with some consistency and desire.

I am a small woman (in height, weight and frame). I inherited my dad's high metabolism and have never had to struggle with my weight. Despite bearing three children, I still wear the same size I did at age 20 and I am now speeding towards my 40's. I mention all of this not to brag, but as background to the following: I was talking with a friend awhile back and she mentioned that she was upset because she had regained some weight that she had worked very hard to lose. The gain was not readily apparent to me, but she was clearly very distressed about it. And then she said - " I wish I was tiny like you". This floored me because my friend is a remarkably beautiful woman. She is physically fit and toned and maintains a very healthy lifestyle. She is also 6 inches taller than I am and has a larger bone structure. She would look terrible if she were my weight. Truth be told - she's also 6 years younger than I am and I often wish I looked more like her.

My point is that the western mainstream media portrays feminine beauty as being young, busty and as skinny as a rake. They portray masculinity as being young, built like Mr. Olympus and hung like a horse. Certainly this is one particular category, but the honest to God truth is that due to different body types, not everyone can look like that nor would it necessarily be healthy for them to do so. IMO - beauty comes in all shapes, sizes and ages and should be represented just as much as the current "ideal".

I agree - people vary too much to reach the "ideals". The tiny-waisted female model, as well as the chiseled-like-a-Greek-statue, are not ideals we can all conform to. But we are all capable of finding our strongest, fittest, and lean body that is healthy for each person's genetics, body type.

-Roger

 

[Primalex]

Because if it is an unattainable goal for so many people

So what? Are you talking about "perfect body" or about "a presentable body that is attainable by the overall population"?

 

[Primalex]

The European Union are bringing in new laws governing the fashion industry and in particular the BMI of catwalk models. The plan is to ban models from the European shows who have a BMI below a certain level. I think it's a start.

It's fucked up if it doesn't also demand a BMI below a certain level. And so far, the amount of people who die because they are too fat outnumber the amount of people who die because they are too thin about 100000:1. So I wonder what should really be regulated?

 

[amorphic]

I fell into the trap of chasing 'the perfect body' type. At the time I thought my perfect body would be at 101lbs giving me a BMI of 17.5. I was convinced that I would look good, perfect at this weight.
I lost some of the most fun and reckless years of my life [17-20] because of this.

Women are bombarded everyday with hundreds of media created images of what is projected to be 'the perfect body'. What woman isn't to look and compare herself? And this bombardment also reaches to kids, you could probably get a bunch of young girls to draw pictures of themselves of what they want to look like when they grow up and I'd be willing to bet most, if not all, of them draw themselves being thin.

As more and more people are diagnosed with eating disorders, including young children and older women [there has been an increase in ED prevalence in those over 40 ever since celebrities of similar ages have appeared showing off tiny body frames] many cite media as having a direct influence in their behaviours and medias relam expands continually. Where does it all end?

 

[Bluestreak363]

... many cite media as having a direct influence in their behaviours and medias relam expands continually. Where does it all end?

Where does it end?

When we stop blaming media and outside influence and start taking responsibility for our personal health crises. People need to begin educating themselves properly. It can be done, but finding the truth in the web of lies weaved by media and advertising can be tricky.

My best advice is to adopt a healthy lifestyle and commit to it. (Consult the Body-For-Life program, for example - it's a great way to launch a new life for yourself). Eat better. Cook whole foods in bulk, portion them into containers, and bring them with you to school/work. Eat five to six small meals per day every few hours in small portions to rev up metabolic function. Drink lots of cold water. Exercise. Do cardio. Hire a reputable trainer who walks the walk he talks and looks the part - I don't care what people say, if a trainer is fat or chubby, I wouldn't hire him unless he personally trained Arnold Schwarzenegger in his glory days.

Sound like a lot of work? Sure, it is. It's hard. People will discourage you because you'll be making them feel guilty about their own lives and lack of progress.

But in the end, when you're healthy as a horse, fit, and you have the body you always dreamed of, you'll feel a sense of accomplishment I cannot convey to you. I've stood atop that mountain and seen the scenery from up there, and let me tell ya... I wouldn't go back to my Oreo-eating ignorance for all the tea in China.

-R

 

[PertPerth]

Where does it end?
When we stop blaming media and outside influence and start taking responsibility for our personal health crises. People need to begin educating themselves properly. It can be done, but finding the truth in the web of lies weaved by media and advertising can be tricky.

So true. While the media may play a role in today's society (and it's problems) the body image/eating/health problems have been around since the day mankind was created. Why? Because we are human and we have weaknesses and need to look at ourselves for solutions to our problems, yet we find it so much easier to blame someone or something else.

I have so much more to add, but will think and post again later.

 

[fire_breeze]

I agree with most of the statements posted above. And completely disagree.

Yes. We have to start taking responsibility of our sedentary lifestyle. We no longer work in the fields 12 hours a day, and therefore cannot eat as if we do. We do have to watch out what we eat and how much we exercise. Undeniably.

However. The image portrayed in the Western world as the ideal body (and I am speaking from a woman's point of view - at least, from this one) is utterly disgusting, for the most part unattainable and let's face it, unhealthy. When a woman becomes obsessed with the 'perfect' measurements, the 'perfect' set of abs, the amount of calories she eats, the amount of hours she spends at the gym and forgets to live, all in the name of health, then it isn't, in my opinion, worth it. When she stresses whether or not about that cookie, then it's not healthy. It is possible to go into extreme 'health' and that is just as dangerous and damaging to the body as letting one go.

One of the reasons that curves was, for the longest time, considered to be desirable (and no, I am not speaking about obesity, I am taking about an actual wait, hips and breasts) was because it showed health, and a joie de vivre. Similarly, in Central and Eastern Europe, it doesn't really matter the shape of the body, but whether or not the person was healthy and enjoyed life. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is what is the most important.

If a woman, or a man, regularly exercises, usually eats healthfully, but occasionally indulges and happens to carry a few pounds, then that to me is the perfect body, regardless of the few extra pounds. If I feel that the man I'm with, despite his chiseled abs, to-die for shoulders and phenomenal ass, is more concerned with the amount of time he puts in the gym and whether or not he went over his daily carbs allotment because he shared that pie with me than he is enjoying himself, I feel that he is less than desirable that the guy who has that little tummy but nonetheless will eat that eclair with me without any guilt. Yes, discipline is commendable. But there too much discipline, and when one cannot 'let go' once in awhile screams obsession and almost, I don't know, fear perhaps? For me, the perfect body is one that is healthy, and one that isn't afraid to live and enjoy life's pleasure, and let's face it, food is one of them.

Just my extremely long 0.02 cents.

 

[TigerClaw]

......

 

[faeriefire]

Hmm...I'm finding it interesting to read through this thread. Unfortunately I know that appearances can become a very big deal if the people around you are crazy...to explain: I grew up being told by my Dad that I should start skipping breakfast. I think it started when I was 11 or 12. He was concerned I'd become a carbon-copy of my mom and went to the extreme of encouraging weight loss at a very early age. My Mom was constantly saying 'the only thing that matters is what's inside you' but then she contradicted such statements by being noticeably uncomfortable of her own body in public arenas.

When I was 13, still a size 2 and in the midst of a growth spurt, I did a research paper on bulemia b/c I wanted to know if I should be controlling my weight by throwing up. Luckily I was smart enough to reject that plan and tell my Dad to quit harping on it. What's really wrong about this is that I've never been overweight, not even close, and yet somehow the people closest to me were influenced enough by societal images of what is attractive to think a prepubescent girl needed to stop eating.

Most days I recognize the beauty of my own body, but every once and a while I get to feeling like that girl, thinking I should be a stick figure. This is the danger of creating an ideal that is not realistic for 90% of the population. Luckily I don't think this happens very often. But it did happen to me. And the main reason I didn't develop an eating disorder or suffer from low self-esteem is because I did my hw and then rejected the messages being sent my way. Not everyone is so lucky. I've subsequently taken good care of my body. And as far as I'm concerned as long as I can comfortably wear my clothing, feel healthy, and run 12 miles in a day life is good.

Last thing: it is not comfortable sharing this story, but I think it's important which is why it's here. Just saying... *grins* blast away

 

[chelleb]

This may not be what the OP was looking for, but , in my opinion..........


The perfect body is the one that your partner wants to fall asleep next to each night and wake up next to each morning. Simple as that.

 

[TigerClaw]

......

 

[chelleb]

chelleb, so true.

Thank you.

I see no reason why anyone needs to fit into an "ideal" image, since everyone's "ideal" is different. I feel there's so much lack of self-confidence in people this days (men too, not just women), we don't need to give them more reasons to feel that way.

I'm sure it's no secrect (esp by looking at my sig) that I'm a bbw, and I am a very self-confident person. I always have been, but I realize I'm probably in the minority. I have a good friend who is 5'1 and 110 soaking wet. She is the most self-concious person I have ever met. Never thinks she looks good, took her a long time to believe that her now-husband loves her and wants to be with her.

 

[cherokee_dove]

IMO, the perfect body is the one you are in; as long as you are happy with it.

Unless you are happy with who you are, the beauty will not shine thru; and therefore will not attract others.