When is "incest" NOT incest?

[Djmac1031]

When is incest not "incest?"

I'm talking strictly within the fantasy realms of our stories of course. And I fully understand the catagory divides people between love it or hate it.

My past two stories now, while touching on the subject, aren't actual incest stories in the true sense.

In my Nude Day story, My Daughter The Nudist, Dad is bothered by his sexual attraction to his daughter after she starts walking around naked. Even fantasizes about her.

But he eventually comes to grips with her nudity, learns to deal with it.

They never actually have sex.

I went back and forth on what catagory to put it in and went with Exhibitionist/ Voyeur, because while there was plenty of looking, there was no touching, at least not between dad and daughter.

My newest story, publishing tomorrow, I also struggled to categorize.

Without giving the entire plot away, there are two sequences where the Male Lead interacts sexually with women who believe they are "related" to him; one his "mother," one his "sister."

As the story plays out I clearly reveal why it's not REAL incest. Right up front, in fact, no head games.

It also has a variety of other sexual scenarios in it, so many I ran out of tags for it.

I submitted it under Erotic Couplings as a catch all because it doesn't focus on one specific genre, but many.

I had to delay publishing (it was supposed to post today) when I realized the Admin switched the catagory to Incest / Taboo.

I switched it back to EC with a note to Admin explaining the "incest" scenario and they reapproved it for EC tomorrow.

The reason I didn't want it posted in IT is again, it's not REALLY an incest story.

And I didn't want to piss off readers expecting a true incest story.

Nor did I want others skipping it because they don't read incest stories.

I did change a tag from "incest" to "fantasy incest" in hopes of clarifying for readers a little.

I'm curious as to where you, as a reader OR a writer, or both, draw the line as to what is considered a "real incest story" and what isn't.

Have you ever had ones you've written or read that blurred the lines?

 

[SimonDoom]

The first story is incest; the second is not.

The key is the relationship, not the details of the activity. In the first story you establish a father-daughter relationship. The relationship is sexual, even if they don't have sex. That's incest.

In the second, the actual relationship is not incestuous. I think you're right not to put it in incest, because readers will be disappointed if you do.

 

[alohadave]

Have you ever had ones you've written or read that blurred the lines?

It seems like most stories could go in at least two categories. Most of mine could have gone in a different category.

 

[John_Vandermeer]

I agree with Simon. The key is the sexual magnetism being consanguine. Not actual sexual activity. And nonconsanguinity is not incest no matter how active. I of course am one of those perverted writers who unabashedly embrace true consanguine sexual magnetism AND activity. And though I think taboo stuff is hot too--step, in-law, etc--I am disappointed to read taboo sold as incest. I do like incest to be kept real though. When incestuous couples start having children, the writer looses me. There is some of that on Lit, believe it or not.

 

[MrPixel]

I was criticized in a comment that a story posted this morning in I/T "hardly" fit in the category. Uh, how does father/daughter sex not fit in the category? And the only (semi-)graphic mention of sex in the story was between them. Was it because it wasn't a good outcome?

 

[SimonDoom]

Incest = sexual intercourse between persons closely related.

Why keep making shit up?

That's irrelevant for purposes of erotica. The key in erotica is what makes it erotic. In this case it's the relation between the two people. That's what makes it erotic for the reader. If Dad is getting turned on by his naked daughter, then the story is incest. That's where the erotic interest lies.

Get out of your head and the silly line-drawing you insist upon. Look at reality. Look at what real people actually do and what turns them on. Reality trumps one's own internal sense of logic every time.

 

[alohadave]

Uh, how does father/daughter sex not fit in the category?

Obviously only mothers and sons can have sex. Duh.

 

[Passiontyper]

Putting this out there, JUST IN CASE: If he's adopted from childhood it's still sort-of incest.

I agree with Simon. The key is the sexual magnetism being consanguine. Not actual activity. And nonconsanguinity is not incest. I of course am one of those perverted writers who unabashedly embrace true consanguine sexual activity. And though I get taboo too, I would be disappointed to read taboo sold as incest. I do like incest to be kept real though. When incestous couples start having children, the writer looses me.

Great point. The category isn't "incest". It's "Incest/Taboo". IMO that gives more than enough leeway to include things like the father/daughter story.

 

[MrPixel]

Obviously only mothers and sons can have sex. Duh.

Since I don't usually read the category for personal reasons, do any stories that you know of end with the son having impregnated mom? The very few I have read end right after the sex and don't delve into the consequences.

 

[alohadave]

Since I don't usually read the category for personal reasons, do any stories that you know of end with the son having impregnated mom? The very few I have read end right after the sex and don't delve into the consequences.

That's a fairly common plotline.

Also, my previous post was joking. There are are all kinds of hookups in I/T. Mother-son is the most common though.

 

[gunhilltrain]

When is incest not "incest?"

I'm talking strictly within the fantasy realms of our stories of course. And I fully understand the catagory divides people between love it or hate it.

My past two stories now, while touching on the subject, aren't actual incest stories in the true sense.

In my Nude Day story, My Daughter The Nudist, Dad is bothered by his sexual attraction to his daughter after she starts walking around naked. Even fantasizes about her.

But he eventually comes to grips with her nudity, learns to deal with it.

They never actually have sex.

I went back and forth on what catagory to put it in and went with Exhibitionist/ Voyeur, because while there was plenty of looking, there was no touching, at least not between dad and daughter.

My newest story, publishing tomorrow, I also struggled to categorize.

Without giving the entire plot away, there are two sequences where the Male Lead interacts sexually with women who believe they are "related" to him; one his "mother," one his "sister."

As the story plays out I clearly reveal why it's not REAL incest. Right up front, in fact, no head games.

It also has a variety of other sexual scenarios in it, so many I ran out of tags for it.

I submitted it under Erotic Couplings as a catch all because it doesn't focus on one specific genre, but many.

I had to delay publishing (it was supposed to post today) when I realized the Admin switched the catagory to Incest / Taboo.

I switched it back to EC with a note to Admin explaining the "incest" scenario and they reapproved it for EC tomorrow.

The reason I didn't want it posted in IT is again, it's not REALLY an incest story.

And I didn't want to piss off readers expecting a true incest story.

Nor did I want others skipping it because they don't read incest stories.

I did change a tag from "incest" to "fantasy incest" in hopes of clarifying for readers a little.

I'm curious as to where you, as a reader OR a writer, or both, draw the line as to what is considered a "real incest story" and what isn't.

Have you ever had ones you've written or read that blurred the lines?

I'll weigh in on this. The first story, with the father/daughter, seems to straddle the line between Incest and Exhibitionist/Voyeur. I guess it's up to your judgment.

I would need to know more the plot of the second story. Why exactly do these two women "believe" that that are his mother and his sister? That is also a judgment call, I guess. I know, I haven't been too helpful with this,

One thing that struck me. I have talked about a scenario where an uncle gets remarried to a much younger woman. I tried writing that once, but it didn't work out. I'd say that wasn't true incest in the strictest definition of the word. In my own life, I had two men whom I called "uncles" even though they were were really my mother's cousins. I called their wives "aunts," and those two couples married before I was born. I never approached them of course, and they never approached me. If such a situation is depicted in a story, it would probably feel like incest even though they were not blood relatives.

 

[Djmac1031]

I see I've already sparked a debate in the replies lol.

I have no problem with that, debate is good.

I'm gonna actually muddy the waters further:

In the Nudist Daughter story: Dad has never thought about his daughter sexually before. It's not until she decides to become a nudist and starts walking around naked that these thoughts spring up.

He actively fights it. He goes as far as hiring an escort and having her role play his "daughter" in an attempt to drive his incestuous thoughts away. Get them out of his system.

The daughter herself never expresses any sexual interest in Dad. While dad is confused and conflicted, as the story plays out, it's very clear it was never her intent to arouse or seduce him.

New story, publishing tomorrow:

Again, while both women characters believe they are related to the Male Lead, it's made VERY clear as the situation begins that they are not, and the Male Lead is fully aware this is not his true mother, nor his true sister.

There's no GOTCHA moment by me, the writer, where I try to make the reader believe it's real incest only to flip the script and say "just kidding."

And no, it's not about adoption or step family lol. It'll make more sense when you actually read it.

 

[Djmac1031]

I would need to know more the plot of the second story. Why exactly do these two women "believe" that that are his mother and his sister? That is also a judgment call, I guess. I know, I haven't been too helpful with this,

You know what, I can give this much away without ruining the whole story I suppose:

The premise of the new story is: an amateur porn writer wakes up one morning to find himself trapped in the world of his own stories and forced to live them out one by one.

The first story was a Mother / Son incest story.

So when he wakes up, he finds himself as the Son character in that story, confronted by the Mother character.

The Male Lead simply assumes he's dreaming at this point and rolls with it, playing along.

But he's fully aware: this woman isn't his mother. She's a character he wrote who thinks he's her son.

 

[NotWise]

I'm not sure I'm answering your question.

I think it's generally a mistake to tiptoe around incest themes. If the story goes somewhere other than I/T, then those themes are likely to be offensive to some readers even if a sexual relationship is never consummated. If the story goes into I/T, the readers there are likely to be disappointed. They want the whole thing--affection, tension, consummation.

 

[Lifestyle66]

The first story is incest; the second is not.

The key is the relationship, not the details of the activity. In the first story you establish a father-daughter relationship. The relationship is sexual, even if they don't have sex. That's incest.

By that logic, just having thought about it makes him guilty.

So, if you every saw a hot looking woman and thought about having sex with her, you committed sexual assault.

 

[Djmac1031]

I'm not sure I'm answering your question.

I think it's generally a mistake to tiptoe around incest themes. If the story goes somewhere other than I/T, then those themes are likely to be offensive to some readers even if a sexual relationship is never consummated. If the story goes into I/T, the readers there are likely to be disappointed. They want the whole thing--affection, tension, consummation.

No, you answered it fine. I generally agree, which is why I chose not to publish either story in IT. Because while they both touch on the theme, neither are what most would consider a "true" incest story.

 

[SimonDoom]

By that logic, just having thought about it makes him guilty.

So, if you every saw a hot looking woman and thought about having sex with her, you committed sexual assault.

Guilty? What does that mean? This isn't a question of crime. It's a question of erotic appeal.

If the story derives its erotic appeal from Dad having thoughts about daughter, then yes, it's incest. That's where the appeal is. Don't get wrapped up in real-world or legal definitions. They have nothing to do with the issue.

 

[alohadave]

The premise of the new story is: an amateur porn writer wakes up one morning to find himself trapped in the world of his own stories and forced to live them out one by one.

I love it.

 

[Passiontyper]

You know what, I can give this much away without ruining the whole story I suppose:

The premise of the new story is: an amateur porn writer wakes up one morning to find himself trapped in the world of his own stories and forced to live them out one by one.

The first story was a Mother / Son incest story.

So when he wakes up, he finds himself as the Son character in that story, confronted by the Mother character.

The Male Lead simply assumes he's dreaming at this point and rolls with it, playing along.

But he's fully aware: this woman isn't his mother. She's a character he wrote who thinks he's her son.

Sounds brilliant! I'll have to read it! I think you could put it in incest if you wanted to though, since it really is incest for the mom. If you were to make it a multi part series you could put one story in every category (or every category that you find tolerable)

 

[AWhoopsieDaisy]

As someone who is very much not into incest I'd consider any scenario between relatives or people taking the role of relatives to be incest (category wise).

Even if it's not literally incest it is catering to that kink. It's part of the reason I don't like the argument in porn that "it's not real incest, they're just actors, get over it." Like no shit they're not actually related. It's still incest content.

 

[Djmac1031]

Sounds brilliant! I'll have to read it! I think you could put it in incest if you wanted to though, since it really is incest for the mom. If you were to make it a multi part series you could put one story in every category (or every category that you find tolerable)

I considered a multi part thing but decided to just make it a complete tale unto itself.

That said, it leaves me options, including writing the stories my main character wrote in their "original" form, especially since I only mention a few of them briefly.

It would be very Meta lol.

 

[Djmac1031]

As someone who is very much not into incest I'd consider any scenario between relatives or people taking the role of relatives to be incest (category wise).

That's why I wanted to make sure I at least tagged it with "fantasy incest" while still publishing it in EC.

I'm aware some people simply don't like incest in ANY form. So I wanted to make them aware the story touches on it.

But I also didn't want it PUBLISHED in IT because it's definitely not, in my opinion, an actual full fledged incest story. Far from it, actually.

 

[Candy_Kane54]

My last two stories explored the issue of when is incest not incest. In Lady In Red the main protagonists are a pair of twins (who were adopted at birth and are having an incestuous relationship with each other) meeting up with an older woman who they have several assignations with, finding out after some time that the woman is their biological mother. As long as they didn't know she was their mother, was it really incest?

The second story, The Many Loves of Anna Marie, a four-part story, we find out what the mother's story is and how she ended up in the incestuous relationship with her twin daughters. Both stories sort of focus on the subject from the aspect of the 'taboo' of incest since lesbian sex can't produce any offspring so that 'taboo' aspect is absent.

 

[gunhilltrain]

You know what, I can give this much away without ruining the whole story I suppose:

The premise of the new story is: an amateur porn writer wakes up one morning to find himself trapped in the world of his own stories and forced to live them out one by one.

The first story was a Mother / Son incest story.

So when he wakes up, he finds himself as the Son character in that story, confronted by the Mother character.

The Male Lead simply assumes he's dreaming at this point and rolls with it, playing along.

But he's fully aware: this woman isn't his mother. She's a character he wrote who thinks he's her son.

Rod Serling did a Twilight Zone once like this. The writer (a playwright, actually) is not trapped in his stories, but he can create the reality of them merely by writing them. Keenan Wynn played him. If I remember correctly, he conjures up a new girlfriend for himself and does okay until his wife catches him.

Sounds like Serling would have noticed your story if he was still around to read it.

 

[Djmac1031]

Rod Serling did a Twilight Zone once like this. The writer (a playwright, actually) is not trapped in his stories, but he can create the reality of them merely by writing them. Keenan Wynn played him. If I remember correctly, he conjures up a new girlfriend for himself and does okay until his wife catches him.

Sounds like Serling would have noticed your story if he was still around to read it.

Oh I never claimed it's a completely unique idea.

There's also a movie that explores this concept, Pleasantville.

My story name is actually a play on that: Pornville, of course.