What is the future of human art?

[ShelbyDawn57]

I came back to add this...

I also write non-erotic stories. There is a platform called Royal Road where people post fantasy and sci-fi stories. To get it views, you pretty much have to have a cool "book" cover. I used ai to generate a cover and put it up. Sure enough, I got more views. I was happy.

But one day, I was screwing around on Reddit (terrible habit. I don't recommend it), and an author was lambasting all the bad ai book covers he saw on Twitter, saying, "If you care about art, you will not use ai or support people who do."

I, of course, took great offense. I care about my art very much and want to share it with others. I used ai as a tool promote my work. I can't afford a cover artist, so I tried to find a shortcut. After arguing with this person, I realized he was right. By using ai, I robbed an artist of a financial opportunity and of the opportunity to make something. I tried to  cheat.

I took my bad ai cover down and deleted it. My story has barely any views. I still can't afford a cover artist, but I learned my lesson. I cannot profess to be passionate about art and use ai. I cannot support others who use ai to cheat.

No you didn't. I have an unpublished romance novel I have been trying to hire a an artist to do cover art for for over a year. I have approached friends that are professional artists and graphic designers, I have contacted art schools, I have posted on social media. The only hit I got ghosted me. So, yeah, I'm looking into AI and Photoshop. that's not cheating anyone. It's using the tools I have available to get the job done.

 

[alohadave]

I came back to add this...

I also write non-erotic stories. There is a platform called Royal Road where people post fantasy and sci-fi stories. To get it views, you pretty much have to have a cool "book" cover. I used ai to generate a cover and put it up. Sure enough, I got more views. I was happy.

But one day, I was screwing around on Reddit (terrible habit. I don't recommend it), and an author was lambasting all the bad ai book covers he saw on Twitter, saying, "If you care about art, you will not use ai or support people who do."

I, of course, took great offense. I care about my art very much and want to share it with others. I used ai as a tool promote my work. I can't afford a cover artist, so I tried to find a shortcut. After arguing with this person, I realized he was right. By using ai, I robbed an artist of a financial opportunity and of the opportunity to make something. I tried to  cheat.

I took my bad ai cover down and deleted it. My story has barely any views. I still can't afford a cover artist, but I learned my lesson. I cannot profess to be passionate about art and use ai. I cannot support others who use ai to cheat.

It's arguable that no artist was "robbed" or "cheated" because you have no way to pay for the cover artist. That artist was never going to get a commission from you.

Unless you choice was between paying for the artist (and you could afford it) and free, then you were never a prospective client.

You can look at it like Volunteer Editors here. You aren't taking business from a professional editor because for most writers here, the choice is between a free editor or no editor. It's not choosing a free editor over a professional.

 

[CalebZhass]

I came back to add this...

I also write non-erotic stories. There is a platform called Royal Road where people post fantasy and sci-fi stories. To get it views, you pretty much have to have a cool "book" cover. I used ai to generate a cover and put it up. Sure enough, I got more views. I was happy.

But one day, I was screwing around on Reddit (terrible habit. I don't recommend it), and an author was lambasting all the bad ai book covers he saw on Twitter, saying, "If you care about art, you will not use ai or support people who do."

I, of course, took great offense. I care about my art very much and want to share it with others. I used ai as a tool promote my work. I can't afford a cover artist, so I tried to find a shortcut. After arguing with this person, I realized he was right. By using ai, I robbed an artist of a financial opportunity and of the opportunity to make something. I tried to  cheat.

I took my bad ai cover down and deleted it. My story has barely any views. I still can't afford a cover artist, but I learned my lesson. I cannot profess to be passionate about art and use ai. I cannot support others who use ai to cheat.

I completely understand your feelings and respect your empathy. Personally, I think you did nothing wrong, but ultimately it is you who has to live with your conscience, so how you deal with something like this has to come from the inside.

I am with those, who consider this no different than when the mechanical looms were invented or when internal combustion engines made horse carriages (and thus horses) obsolete for transportation.

Technology changes the way we live and it makes certain professions more needed, while others less required. When factories start using more automation, you suddenly require less people on the floors next to the assembly lines. It sucks for those who lose their jobs. It is our duty to reach out and not let them fall through the cracks, not let them become victims of the change. It is however not our job to try and stop time from flowing, nor would we stand a chance of doing so.

 

[forgotmyantidepressants]

Agreed. The reason I'm interested in art is because it's human.

It's conceivable that AI will get better and better at imitating art. Maybe we'll even be fooled. If I read a novel that I absolutely loved, thought the writing was perfect, the characters deep and interesting, and then you told me that it was generated entirely by AI, that would ultimately leave me cold. It wouldn't take away the experience I had enjoying the work in the first place, but that would forever be an asterisk beside my appreciation. My interest in that novel would be as a curiosity, as an impressive simulation. Maybe it would qualify as art - I'm not really interested in that debate, since it's so subjective. But it isn't any kind of art I'm interested in.

As a tool, AI is interesting, and worth developing, exploring, making people's jobs easier, etc. Its output could be used to inspire creativity, to help generate and explore ideas. But I don't see it replacing human-made art. What would be the point of that?

This is very well said.

 

[forgotmyantidepressants]

It's arguable that no artist was "robbed" or "cheated" because you have no way to pay for the cover artist. That artist was never going to get a commission from you.

Unless you choice was between paying for the artist (and you could afford it) and free, then you were never a prospective client.

You can look at it like Volunteer Editors here. You aren't taking business from a professional editor because for most writers here, the choice is between a free editor or no editor. It's not choosing a free editor over a professional.

It's the principal of the thing. I don't get preferential treatment because I'm broke. Just like people who write poorly don't get to use ai and then have their stories held up alongside the works of writers with skill.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

It's the principal of the thing. I don't get preferential treatment because I'm broke. Just like people who write poorly don't get to use ai and then have their stories held up alongside the works of writers with skill.

It isn't "preferential treatment". It's using a tool.
Would you say," people who paint poorly don't get to use a camera and have their pictures held up alongside the works of painters with skill"?

I seriously wonder how many of the people who dismiss AI art as "just pushing a button" have actually used AI to to try and capture their vision.
You can spend HOURS trying different prompts, adjusting things, trying to get it right. There is a human involved throughout the whole process.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

It's the principal of the thing. I don't get preferential treatment because I'm broke. Just like people who write poorly don't get to use ai and then have their stories held up alongside the works of writers with skill.

I think your analogy is flawed.

I'm not broke and have paid professional editors to look ay some of my work. I used some of their suggestions and not others. I've also enlisted some beta readers from the friends I've made here. With the same result.

I've even used AI to create potential cover and character art for a few stories as that is not the skill I am offering as my own, and as I mentioned, my success rate at getting professional assistance with that has been abysmal.

What I haven't done is use AI to create a story and try to pass it off as mine. That would be fraudulent unless I made it obvious that the work was AI generated.

Point is, getting help and advice to improve your art is one thing, creating fraudulent work is another. AI is a tool. You and your ethical code decide how and when you use it.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

No you didn't. I have an unpublished romance novel I have been trying to hire a an artist to do cover art for for over a year. I have approached friends that are professional artists and graphic designers, I have contacted art schools, I have posted on social media. The only hit I got ghosted me. So, yeah, I'm looking into AI and Photoshop. that's not cheating anyone. It's using the tools I have available to get the job done.

Very much this. I've been kicking around an idea for several years for a photo series. I don't have the means to execute it, or the talent to draw it. AI isn't quite where I need it to be yet. But when it is I'm totally doing it, and anyone who tells me it's "soulless" can fuck themselves because they will have zero appreciation for how much thought and planning I've put into it.

 

[nice90sguy]

they will have zero appreciation for how much thought and planning I've put into it.

That's a fun part of it. We're all a bit overly concerned with the product, not the process of making art, these days.

Cars are a much faster way of getting from A to B than running, but that doesn't mean we should give up running.

 

[samhasstories]

That's a fun part of it. We're all a bit overly concerned with the product, not the process of making art, these days.

Cars are a much faster way of getting from A to B than running, but that doesn't mean we should give up running.

You're right, we shouldn't give up running because cars are more efficient: we should give us running because it's the worst.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

You're right, we shouldn't give up running because cars are more efficient: we should give us running because it's the worst.

I LIKE running, thank you very much.

 

[forgotmyantidepressants]

It isn't "preferential treatment". It's using a tool.
Would you say," people who paint poorly don't get to use a camera and have their pictures held up alongside the works of painters with skill"?

I seriously wonder how many of the people who dismiss AI art as "just pushing a button" have actually used AI to to try and capture their vision.
You can spend HOURS trying different prompts, adjusting things, trying to get it right. There is a human involved throughout the whole process.

Photography and painting are completely different skill sets. You can't compare the result of the two.

 

[forgotmyantidepressants]

I think your analogy is flawed.

I'm not broke and have paid professional editors to look ay some of my work. I used some of their suggestions and not others. I've also enlisted some beta readers from the friends I've made here. With the same result.

I've even used AI to create potential cover and character art for a few stories as that is not the skill I am offering as my own, and as I mentioned, my success rate at getting professional assistance with that has been abysmal.

What I haven't done is use AI to create a story and try to pass it off as mine. That would be fraudulent unless I made it obvious that the work was AI generated.

Point is, getting help and advice to improve your art is one thing, creating fraudulent work is another. AI is a tool. You and your ethical code decide how and when you use it.

How is using AI to create a story fraudulent but not to design a book cover?
My ethical code compels me not engage with ai generated art. You can do what wish. But don't be surprised if people refuse to engage with it.

 

[forgotmyantidepressants]

It isn't "preferential treatment". It's using a tool.
Would you say," people who paint poorly don't get to use a camera and have their pictures held up alongside the works of painters with skill"?

I seriously wonder how many of the people who dismiss AI art as "just pushing a button" have actually used AI to to try and capture their vision.
You can spend HOURS trying different prompts, adjusting things, trying to get it right. There is a human involved throughout the whole process.

Yes, but you're not writing. You're using an ai. It's not the same thing.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Photography and painting are completely different skill sets. You can't compare the result of the two.

Creating an AI image and painting a picture are completely different skill sets, you can't compare the two.

 

[Fl_maledad]

I LIKE running, thank you very much.

I like it as well! lol

 

[forgotmyantidepressants]

I completely understand your feelings and respect your empathy. Personally, I think you did nothing wrong, but ultimately it is you who has to live with your conscience, so how you deal with something like this has to come from the inside.

I am with those, who consider this no different than when the mechanical looms were invented or when internal combustion engines made horse carriages (and thus horses) obsolete for transportation.

Technology changes the way we live and it makes certain professions more needed, while others less required. When factories start using more automation, you suddenly require less people on the floors next to the assembly lines. It sucks for those who lose their jobs. It is our duty to reach out and not let them fall through the cracks, not let them become victims of the change. It is however not our job to try and stop time from flowing, nor would we stand a chance of doing so.

I am not a luddite. I understand that I am screaming into the void. In a different thread, you said that there will probably be two categories of art: AI-generated/assisted and completely made by humans. I think that's ultimately what's going to happen. I actually like this outcome because then people are free to choose.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

How is using AI to create a story fraudulent but not to design a book cover?
My ethical code compels me not engage with ai generated art. You can do what wish. But don't be surprised if people refuse to engage with it.

When did I say using AI to create a story was "fraudulent"?
You can sit in your ivory tower and think all these people are going to "refuse to engage with it" but society is going to leave you behind.
This whole argument is a tempest in a teapot that only a tiny segment of the population cares about. The vast majority of people only care if they like the image or story or not. They don't give a tinker's damn how it was created.

 

[forgotmyantidepressants]

This, though talking to stones might be easier. For anti-AI purists, it's almost a religious matter, a sacrilege---a blend of primal fear of innovation and ignorance. Regardless of the arguments presented, they persist in recycling clichés about plagiarism, blood, sweat, and tears, without realizing the challenges of squeezing anything worthwhile out of this clumsy machinery.

The cinema didn't eliminate theater, television didn't eliminate cinema, and Netflix didn't eliminate television.

Hybrid art won't eliminate traditional forms.

AI can only enhance existing abilities. I was a decent creator before, and I'll stay an original creator tomorrow. Using these new tools will heighten my capabilities, but it won't be easy, not at all.

Why are you getting nasty? You can do whatever the hell you want. But I can choose not to engage with it.

 

[forgotmyantidepressants]

When did I say using AI to create a story was "fraudulent"?
You can sit in your ivory tower and think all these people are going to "refuse to engage with it" but society is going to leave you behind.
This whole argument is a tempest in a teapot that only a tiny segment of the population cares about. The vast majority of people only care if they like the image or story or not. They don't give a tinker's damn how it was created.

Well I do. People are free to do whatever they want. I think everyone is getting so upset because I touched a nerve.

 

[forgotmyantidepressants]

Creating an AI image and painting a picture are completely different skill sets, you can't compare the two.

You feed the machine examples of other people's work. You can't compare the two because one is stealing.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Well I do. People are free to do whatever they want. I think everyone is getting so upset because I touched a nerve.

That's a weak argument, and it seems like the anti-AI crowd is far more upset. They are the ones tossing around accusations of "fraud" for example.

People who think of themselves as "artists" are offended that a machine might be able to do their job better than they can, so they attack it's legitimacy.

I love this :
"When the first reports about photography came out in 1839, one Dutch periodical published a letter warning of “an invention…which could cause some alarm to our Dutch painters. A method has been found whereby sunlight itself is elevated to the rank of drawing master, and faithful depictions of nature are made the work of a few minutes.”"

 

[Kelliezgirl]

You feed the machine examples of other people's work. You can't compare the two because one is stealing.

When I read your book or look at your picture am I stealing it?

 

[forgotmyantidepressants]

I am very passionate about art (not just mine). My language and attitudes reflect that. I think people who use ai get mad when others refuse to engage with it because they know it's not the same. And I am an artist. A very bad one. But I still take my work seriously enough to have an opinion about it.

 

[forgotmyantidepressants]

When I read your book or look at your picture am I stealing it?

Putting it into a machine and then manipulating said machine to try and imitate another person's work is stealing.