Thoughts on Mary Sue characters.

[onehitwanda]

For the love of god, someone lock this topic. I can't believe people are still arguing over this crap.

HEY, WHAT IS YOUR OPINION OF KVOTHE FROM KINGKILLER CHRONICLES AS A GARY STU CHARACTER? I WOULD LIKE A DISCUSSION!

Kvothe's an unreliable narrator. But the surrounds of the Waystone Inn (Bast, the un-unlockable box, the sword he names Folly, the Scrael, and the arrival of Chronicler) all speak to the fact that he is being at least partially honest.

He's not so much a Mary Sue as an older, wiser man telling the fireside tale of the incredibly talented but monumentally unwise idiot that he was in his youth. Remember - he's a teenager / young adult during the time period he's describing.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

what the fuck is this thread even.

It's suppose dot be a thread about Mary Sue's, but some idiot( ahem, that would be me... SMH), brought Star Wars into it as an example, and well, here we are...

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Kvothe's an unreliable narrator. But the surrounds of the Waystone Inn (Bast, the un-unlockable box, the sword he names Folly, the Scrael, and the arrival of Chronicler) all speak to the fact that he is being at least partially honest.

He's not so much a Mary Sue as an older, wiser man telling the fireside tale of the incredibly talented but monumentally unwise idiot that he was in his youth. Remember - he's a teenager / young adult during the time period he's describing.

Thank you!

I was mostly referring to his teenage years where he practically excelled at everything. He was great at sympathy, could split his mind multiple times and he could fight toe to toe against much older students. He played his lute with an amazing skill. He was very intelligent and resourceful. He named the wind, being the only one after Elodin as far as we know and later he even spoke the true name of Felurian. And on top of that, every girl/woman in the book was infatuated with him. I love the books and I think Kvothe's story is very imaginative, but he should have had more faults

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

Thank you!

I was mostly referring to his teenage years where he practically excelled at everything. He was great at sympathy, could split his mind multiple times and he could fight toe to toe against much older students. He played his lute with an amazing skill. He was very intelligent and resourceful. He named the wind, being the only one after Elodin as far as we know and later he even spoke the true name of Felurian. And on top of that, every girl/woman in the book was infatuated with him. I love the books and I think Kvothe's story is very imaginative, but he should have had more faults

Haven't read the books, but is it more allowable for the MC to be OP since there seems to be an active narrator telling the stories as he(supposedly) remembers them?

 

[Kelliezgirl]

It's been a while since I've watched the movie. I must have forgotten the scene where this is explained.

It's expanded universe stuff.

 

[onehitwanda]

but he should have had more faults

He nearly killed himself by trying to call the wind when Abenathy teaches him enough Sympathy to be dangerous but not enough to be safe.
He took fire into the library and got himself banned until Elodin personally intervened.
He made a mortal enemy of Ambrose Jakis
He made himself known to the Chandrian
He talked to the Cthaeh
He manages to almost make a mortal enemy of Devi
He manages to both gain and lose a patron who (reading between the lines) is married to his aunt.

Kvothe is a monumental idiot. He is hot-headed and dangerous; he's Maverick in the first Top Gun before Goose pays the price of his lack of caution.

> And on top of that, every girl/woman in the book was infatuated with him
They really aren't. It's only really Felurian and Denna. Fela maybe for a bit after he rescues her, Auri not at all (and he seems to look on her as a sister), Devi perhaps finds him intriguing but definitely nothing more, and Mola appears to view him as a liability / suture practice dummy.

And for Kvote? He loves Denna and will admit no other.

 

[onehitwanda]

Thank you!

I was mostly referring to his teenage years where he practically excelled at everything. He was great at sympathy, could split his mind multiple times and he could fight toe to toe against much older students. He played his lute with an amazing skill. He was very intelligent and resourceful. He named the wind, being the only one after Elodin as far as we know and later he even spoke the true name of Felurian. And on top of that, every girl/woman in the book was infatuated with him. I love the books and I think Kvothe's story is very imaginative, but he should have had more faults

We should split this to a new thread

 

[Bramblethorn]

"Not in the movie but it's canon" sounds suspiciously like "making it up after the fact". If you can do it for Luke, you can do it for Rey.

Indeed, if we're playing that game, there's a ton of non-movie canon set before Episode VII that covers many of the issues we've been discussing here about Rey. It establishes that her Force sensitivity was known to Palpatine shortly after her birth (and was the reason why her parents needed to hide her from him) and that it had already manifested well before TFA, when she felt Kylo's fall to the Dark Side. It also discusses her developing a reputation for defending herself with a quarterstaff, and using a salvaged flight simulator to learn how to use spacecraft.

I didn't raise that material earlier in my discussion with Shelby, because IMHO a movie series ought to be able to stand on its own without depending on a truckload of extended canon, particularly stuff tacked on after the movie's release. But if extended-universe material is admissible, then no doubt this will completely satisfy all the folk who disliked Rey because they didn't think that stuff had been explained.

;-)

 

[Kelliezgirl]

"Not in the movie but it's canon" sounds suspiciously like "making it up after the fact". If you can do it for Luke, you can do it for Rey.

Don't get me wrong. I had figurines of Luke, C-3PO, Artoo, Han and Darth Vader back in 1978. The best day of my life, even better than my wedding day, was when I saw Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back on the big screen, back to back. I've watched the Christmas Special. Hells, I've even watched The Book of Boba Fett *twice*. I'm a fan.

I love Luke. I love Rey. Were the sequels mismanaged? Definitely. Just give her the same breaks you give him - and allow for the fact that the sequels were made for a difference audience, in a different time, with different attention spans and different expectations from movies.

A different audience? You mean the people who went to the Force Awakens were different people than the ones who went to see a New Hope? I mean I'm sure there were plenty of newbies, but let's not pretend that movie wasn't a huge steaming pile of fan service.
Different attention spans?
In a time of shorter attention spans Force Awakens is 17 minutes LONGER than A New Hope.
138 minutes versus 121.
They had 17 more minutes to develop Rey as a character and didn't.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

He nearly killed himself by trying to call the wind when Abenathy teaches him enough Sympathy to be dangerous but not enough to be safe.
He took fire into the library and got himself banned until Elodin personally intervened.
He made a mortal enemy of Ambrose Jakis
He made himself known to the Chandrian
He talked to the Cthaeh
He manages to almost make a mortal enemy of Devi
He manages to both gain and lose a patron who (reading between the lines) is married to his aunt.

Kvothe is a monumental idiot. He is hot-headed and dangerous; he's Maverick in the first Top Gun before Goose pays the price of his lack of caution.

> And on top of that, every girl/woman in the book was infatuated with him
They really aren't. It's only really Felurian and Denna. Fela maybe for a bit after he rescues her, Auri not at all (and he seems to look on her as a sister), Devi perhaps finds him intriguing but definitely nothing more, and Mola appears to view him as a liability / suture practice dummy.

And for Kvote? He loves Denna and will admit no other.

All you said stands... but somehow he still seemed overpowered to me... We still haven't seen him truly fail, but I guess that is supposed to happen in the third book... if we ever see it come out
Fucking Rothfuss.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Pretending not to understand who they reference and what they mean is silly.

Obfuscation is kind of her M.O.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

We should split this to a new thread

Please. This actually sounds interesting.

 

[onehitwanda]

Fucking Rothfuss.

FTDS!

 

[AwkwardlySet]

FTDS!

I don't know what that means, Nerd!

 

[onehitwanda]

I don't know what that means, Nerd!

Finish the damn story!

Also, @EmilyMiller someone tried to nerd shame me! Can I deploy the secret weapon?

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

All you said stands... but somehow he still seemed overpowered to me... We still haven't seen him truly fail, but I guess that is supposed to happen in the third book... if we ever see it come out
Fucking Rothfuss.

Guessing this is worth reading even without the third book, correct?

 

[onehitwanda]

Guessing this is worth reading even without the third book, correct?

Totally worth reading. You will want to punch the protagonist multiple times.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

Totally worth reading. You will want to punch the protagonist multiple times.

Thanks. been looking for a new universe to explore.

 

[onehitwanda]

All you said stands... but somehow he still seemed overpowered to me... We still haven't seen him truly fail, but I guess that is supposed to happen in the third book... if we ever see it come out
Fucking Rothfuss.

Editted to add: Given that he's running the Waystone inn in a town which is a pustule on the arse end of nowhere, we can assume that he fucked up with Denna (or she's dead) and therefore he failed harder than any motherfucker has failed before or since.

Editted to add again: Perhaps she is the reason he's known as the Kingkiller, and it was Ambrose he killed after Ambrose killed Denna.

In which case fuck Ambrose so hard he yodels.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Also, @EmilyMiller someone tried to nerd shame me! Can I deploy the secret weapon?

Fuck... is it some ultra-advanced weaponry developed by the Underground Lesbian Army?

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Guessing this is worth reading even without the third book, correct?

If you like fantasy, yes. Those are pretty imaginative and emotional books with decent if not really first-rate worldbuilding. The characters are also quite good.

 

[onehitwanda]

Fuck... is it some ultra-advanced weaponry developed by the Underground Lesbian Army?

You call it ultra-advanced weaponry, we call it the Cockenspiel.

 

[onehitwanda]

If you like fantasy, yes. Those are pretty imaginative and emotional books with decent if not really first-rate worldbuilding. The characters are also quite good.

And you need to keep your eyes open because the books are full of references to things that you will remember later and go "wow, what the fuck".

@AwkwardlySet like the song "Lady Lockless" and , later, the box with no lock.

Edit: I need to stop fangirling about the Kingkiller Chronicles.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

And you need to keep your eyes open because the books are full of references to things that you will remember later and go "wow, what the fuck".

@AwkwardlySet like the song "Lady Lockless" and , later, the box with no lock.

Edit: I need to stop fangirling about the Kingkiller Chronicles.

OK, one more thing. Is this hard cover worthy or paperback?

 

[samhasstories]

OK, one more thing. Is this hard cover worthy or paperback?

Do you actually choose hardback when paperback's an option? Is that like a collector thing?