Thoughts on Mary Sue characters.

[Kelliezgirl]

Darth Karma Chameleon

I feel like I need to work this into a conversation at the earliest opportunity.

 

[BgDaddy33]

Characters of this nature are known as Mary Sues. They’re very common in fantasy, fanfic, and anime stories.

I started to read this thread and saw it go on a SW tangent in page 1, skipped to page 12 and saw that the SW banter was still going on!

To jump in on the OC's comment, tropes work because they are so easily to identify with. I think our brain immediately recognizes the signs and figures out who we are "supposed" to react and leans our biases accordingly.

-Oh, I'm supposed to like her... Let me fall in love now and save everyone time.
-Oh, he's obviously the bad guy, that sneer is all I need to know to hate him.

I've read many an article both in favor and against tropes. Avoiding tropes usually means a conscious effort to do so, adding complexity to your story which may backfire on you if the reader is looking for something easy to digest. Reacher (both books and series) is wildly popular BECAUSE it leans into it's trope by design for example.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Still maintain that street urchin does not equate to advanced force skills.

"Street urchin"? I've missed something here; who's the street urchin we're talking about?

I’ll have to rewatch but I’m pretty sure the first reference we get to her even being force sensitive is when she touches Luke’s light Sabre.

The first explicit reference, but not the first reference.

Through the series, Force sensitivity has been presented as an innate characteristic. This is hinted in the original trilogy (Luke and Leia possess it by virtue of their parentage) and then Anakin's storyline gets much more heavy-handed about it. If Rey was Force-sensitive when she touched the light saber, then she was always Force-sensitive, even if nobody had previously realised it.

Episode I already strongly hinted that Force sensitivity can manifest in the form of otherwise-inexplicable skills - just look at Anakin, a slave with no obvious access to higher education, who's built an advanced droid and become a champion racing pilot by age nine. For audiences who'd seen Episode I, it shouldn't have been too hard to guess that Rey's advanced skills might have been a clue to her Force sensitivity, long before the light saber business confirmed it. Especially when combined with her mysterious parentage, which was a very obvious plot coupon waiting to be redeemed.

Luke’s relative experiences have nothing to do with her being too OP too fast without documentation or explaination of how she got that way. Sorry, screams Mary Sue to me.

What do you mean by "documentation" here? What kind of documentation would you have wanted to see?

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

What do you mean by "documentation" here? What kind of documentation would you have wanted to see?

Oh, I don't know, maybe something, anything that indicated, after Rey became aware of her force sensitivity, it took some actual effort to master it.

 

[AlinaX]

You know what proves Rey is a Mary Sue? She was able to use the force to sway OO7's mind, and no way is James Bond weak-willed. Absolutely he wouldn't drop his weapon - health & safety, and all that.

 

[SimonDoom]

"Street urchin"? I've missed something here; who's the street urchin we're talking about?



The first explicit reference, but not the first reference.

Through the series, Force sensitivity has been presented as an innate characteristic. This is hinted in the original trilogy (Luke and Leia possess it by virtue of their parentage) and then Anakin's storyline gets much more heavy-handed about it. If Rey was Force-sensitive when she touched the light saber, then she was always Force-sensitive, even if nobody had previously realised it.

Episode I already strongly hinted that Force sensitivity can manifest in the form of otherwise-inexplicable skills - just look at Anakin, a slave with no obvious access to higher education, who's built an advanced droid and become a champion racing pilot by age nine. For audiences who'd seen Episode I, it shouldn't have been too hard to guess that Rey's advanced skills might have been a clue to her Force sensitivity, long before the light saber business confirmed it. Especially when combined with her mysterious parentage, which was a very obvious plot coupon waiting to be redeemed.



What do you mean by "documentation" here? What kind of documentation would you have wanted to see?

Here's my thought on this, and on what you're saying. I agree that in terms of the "Star Wars canon" one can logically explain Rey's success and demonstrate that it's consistent with the canon as we know.

But who cares? You yourself said, and I wholly agree, when George Lucas was first writing this stuff, he was just making it up on the fly. When as 12 year old I first saw the original Star Wars, I didn't give a crap about ANY of the Star Wars canon, or the background, or explanations of the force, or any of it. All I knew was the story. I didn't grow up with Star Wars wiki sites, or Boba Fet Halloween costumes, or Lego Star Wars models. It worked as silly fun, and it also worked because Lucas had a pretty astute sense of how to craft a story that followed the classic "hero's journey" narrative. That's all it took.

The latest trilogy, with Rey as the hero, sucks because it exhibits no sense whatsoever about how to chart Rey's journey. It's not her fault--she's not a real person, after all--it's the ham-handed writers' fault. Her character is never developed fully. She's never given any funny lines to add a bit of depth to the character or relief from the grim seriousness of what she's doing. She's insufficiently tested. When she beats Kylo Ren at the end of Force Awakens, it's boring. She should have lost to Kylo Ren at the end of the movie, but pushed him, to his surprise, and somehow gotten away. THAT would be a good story arc and set up further good story development and set up her next encounter with Kylo. But no, by the time Last Jedi begins we already know she can beat him. By the time Leia is flying through space in Last Jedi, and Rey is making rocks float, I'm yawning and saying to myself, "There are no limits to what people can do in this universe, so there's no drama. I'm out."

 

[M_K_Babalon]

That's a Mary Sue. (And why does no-one complain about backwater farmboy Luke Skywalker outpiloting the Rebel pilots and blowing up the Death Star?)

In reply to the OP: I hate Mary Sues (when they are Mary Sues and not just a target for fanboy ire), and I can't imagine writing one. For a start, they'd be incredibly boring to write about. I'm well beyond the age of wanting to thrust any self-insert power trip fantasies on any readers. Secondly, where's the story? Unless you're writing the simplest of strokers - "I'm irresistible, and here's some hot sex I had" - a Mary Sue leaves little room for tension or development.

I might write a seemingly flawless character if the POV character's understanding requires it: blind love, or blind jealousy, for instance. But that flawless character would only be an illusion, not reality, and the story would definitely need to show that it's not real - or else use it as a humourous device, making the character likeable or relatable despite their perfections.

There's a bit of reasoning for that. Lukes jedi training, and that Incoms vehicles have controls so similar, that anybody used to them, can pick them up quick enough. Like if you've driven any 80s GM, you can pretty much figure them all out. His land speeder was an Incom.

 

[StillStunned]

that Incoms vehicles have controls so similar, that anybody used to them, can pick them up quick enough. Like if you've driven any 80s GM, you can pretty much figure them all out. His land speeder was an Incom.

It's been a while since I've watched the movie. I must have forgotten the scene where this is explained.

 

[MrHereWriting]

"Street urchin"? I've missed something here; who's the street urchin we're talking about?

What do you mean by "documentation" here? What kind of documentation would you have wanted to see?

Pretending not to understand who they reference and what they mean is silly.

 

[AlinaX]

'They' could have not used words that twisted the argument.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

I'll avoid a long analysis and say simply that Luke Skywalker doesn't 'outpilot' anyone - he's as dead as the rest of the pilots if Han Solo doesn't come and rescue him. And in the battle up to that point, he both saves and is saved by the other X-Wings. And his success comes down to listening to other people's advice at key moments.

The best way to make the Mary Sue argument with Ray is to watch how long it takes both Han and Luke to shoot down four Tie-Fighters in the Millenium Falcon in a New Hope

Now guess how long it takes Ray to shoot down three Tie-Fighters in the Millenium Falcon in the Last Jedi. Make sure to write down your predictions on a piece of paper before watching.

She did get the hang of flying that thing way too fast for my liking. By the freighters design alone, I'd bet it'd need hours of training. You're all the way starboard and can't see anything to port, but the entire ship. If she were at a station or Lucrehulk, I could see her winging it, but on planet with obsticals, with how fast it is? Imagine her in an B wing, with the entire ship spinning around the cockpit. I'd have looked for something else to fly, unless I absolutely had to fly the Falcon. It's only saving grace is it actually can outrun most TIEs, even in atmosphere, with a 1200mph top speed.

 

[MrHereWriting]

'They' could have not used words that twisted the argument.

Bramble pretending not to get the reference is a silly attempt at making someone else's reasoning look silly. It doesn't work.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

It's been a while since I've watched the movie. I must have forgotten the scene where this is explained.

Check out this link. His SkyHopper is in the background of the picture, I think. It's kind of blurred, but text explains..
https://www.starwars.com/databank/t-16-skyhopper#:~:text=A high-performance airspeeder capable,reckless trip through Beggar's Canyon.

 

[StillStunned]

Check out this link. His SkyHopper is in the background of the picture, I think. It's kind of blurred, but text explains..

Sure, and Rey had a doll dressed like a Rebel pilot, which was her graduation gift when she got her X-wing licence.

 

[lil_jenni]

I was really interested to read this thread. A comment on my story called it a "shitty little Mary Lou story." I didn't know what that was, so I looked it up. But after so doing, I did not think my story fit the definition. I hoped this thread might give me more information. After reading it, I have discovered two things:

1. My story is based on a fantasy I had at the time, and in so much as a fantasy is a wish, I guess it could be wish fulfillment. But it still doesn't seem like a Mary Lou story as discussed on this thread.

2. Some people take Star Wars a lot more seriously than I do. I thought the sequel trilogy was meh overall and silly in parts, but that is where it stops for me.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Oh, I don't know, maybe something, anything that indicated, after Rey became aware of her force sensitivity, it took some actual effort to master it.

Rey is very good with a light saber and other combat skills, but "mastering the Force" isn't just about being good at hitting things.

A significant part of TLJ is Rey begging Luke to train her specifically because she hasn't yet mastered the Force and needs his help to do so. When she finally persuades him, we get three training scenes, along with some hints that her raw power sometimes exceeds her ability to control it.

Even after Luke's training, she's still no match for Snoke's Force powers. First he tricks her by linking her mind to Kylo's without her knowledge, then he disarms her and throws her around with telekinesis. She only survives her encounter with Snoke because Kylo turns on him and takes him by surprise.

 

[StillStunned]

2. Some people take Star Wars a lot more seriously than I do.

You know what they say, no-one hates Star Wars more than a Star Wars fan.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

Sure, and Rey had a doll dressed like a Rebel pilot, which was her graduation gift when she got her X-wing licence.

I think you may have intentionally missed or ignored the point of the link I sent you. Luke had an actual T-16 Skyhopper, not just the model. Like so much Star Wars lore, It may not have been in the movie, but it is referred to and is canon.

The little speeder he takes to go bring R2D2 home is not a T-16 Skyhopper.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

Rey is very good with a light saber and other combat skills, but ...

Thank you for making my point.

How and when did she get so good at using a lightsaber? It may be the case, but it is never justified or explained in any way. TFA, she goes toe to toe with an all be it injured Kylo Ren, but she does some pretty advanced stuff in that fight. Her exposed history shows her with a staff. As has already been mentioned, totally different mechanics that a sabre, light or otherwise.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

I started to read this thread and saw it go on a SW tangent in page 1, skipped to page 12 and saw that the SW banter was still going on!

To jump in on the OC's comment, tropes work because they are so easily to identify with. I think our brain immediately recognizes the signs and figures out who we are "supposed" to react and leans our biases accordingly.

-Oh, I'm supposed to like her... Let me fall in love now and save everyone time.
-Oh, he's obviously the bad guy, that sneer is all I need to know to hate him.

I've read many an article both in favor and against tropes. Avoiding tropes usually means a conscious effort to do so, adding complexity to your story which may backfire on you if the reader is looking for something easy to digest. Reacher (both books and series) is wildly popular BECAUSE it leans into it's trope by design for example.

John Wick is the same, but they give him weight through Viggo's Baba Yaga speech when he explains to his son the error of his ways.

So, I guess the implication is that if you can justify the character being so OP by introducing sufficient supporting backstory, it can work and not be tropey.

In Reacher, there are enough flashbacks to his time in the 101st, that we understand why he's such a bad ass. Same with John Wick, I mean, "Three men with a fucking pencil..."

 

[AwkwardlySet]

For the love of god, someone lock this topic. I can't believe people are still arguing over this crap.

HEY, WHAT IS YOUR OPINION OF KVOTHE FROM KINGKILLER CHRONICLES AS A GARY STU CHARACTER? I WOULD LIKE A DISCUSSION!

 

[StillStunned]

I think you may have intentionally missed or ignored the point of the link I sent you. Luke had an actual T-16 Skyhopper, not just the model. Like so much Star Wars lore, It may not have been in the movie, but it is referred to and is canon.

"Not in the movie but it's canon" sounds suspiciously like "making it up after the fact". If you can do it for Luke, you can do it for Rey.

Don't get me wrong. I had figurines of Luke, C-3PO, Artoo, Han and Darth Vader back in 1978. The best day of my life, even better than my wedding day, was when I saw Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back on the big screen, back to back. I've watched the Christmas Special. Hells, I've even watched The Book of Boba Fett *twice*. I'm a fan.

I love Luke. I love Rey. Were the sequels mismanaged? Definitely. Just give her the same breaks you give him - and allow for the fact that the sequels were made for a difference audience, in a different time, with different attention spans and different expectations from movies.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

"Not in the movie but it's canon" sounds suspiciously like "making it up after the fact". If you can do it for Luke, you can do it for Rey.

Don't get me wrong. I had figurines of Luke, C-3PO, Artoo, Han and Darth Vader back in 1978. The best day of my life, even better than my wedding day, was when I saw Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back on the big screen, back to back. I've watched the Christmas Special. Hells, I've even watched The Book of Boba Fett *twice*. I'm a fan.

I love Luke. I love Rey. Were the sequels mismanaged? Definitely. Just give her the same breaks you give him - and allow for the fact that the sequels were made for a difference audience, in a different time, with different attention spans and different expectations from movies.

Sorry. I'm just done with this. Rey is a classic example of a Mary Sue. Deal with it or not.

 

[Bramblethorn]

The latest trilogy, with Rey as the hero, sucks because it exhibits no sense whatsoever about how to chart Rey's journey. It's not her fault--she's not a real person, after all--it's the ham-handed writers' fault. Her character is never developed fully. She's never given any funny lines to add a bit of depth to the character or relief from the grim seriousness of what she's doing.

The trilogy sucks for a variety of reasons, and I'd agree that Rey is not developed very well overall. But it's not true to say that she has no comic lines. For instance:

Rey and Finn, trying to escape Jakku under attack by First Order:
Finn: What about this ship? [the Millennium Falcon]
Rey: That ship is garbage! [starts running to another ship, only to see it blown up]
Rey: The garbage will do.

Or, in response to a shirtless Kylo, who I'm told is very distracting for people who are into Adam Driver:

"Do you have something, a towel, or something, you can put on?"

 

[onehitwanda]

You know what proves Rey is a Mary Sue? She was able to use the force to sway OO7's mind, and no way is James Bond weak-willed. Absolutely he wouldn't drop his weapon - health & safety, and all that.

what the fuck is this thread even.