Is there an inherent inferiority/superiority to PYL/pyl?

[Sir_Winston54]

i am submissive because i am inferior .

Why do some people consider this a truism?

Discuss and defend your point of view.

 

[bjhass]

Why do some people consider this a truism?

Discuss and defend your point of view.

To answeryour first question, no. There is nothing inherent to these types of relationships. They are each as unique as the individuals in them.

Now to your second question: it is all relative. From their point of view it is true. You can disagree with them all you want but your odds of changing their beliefs are no greater than their odds of changing your beliefs.

That being said there does seem to be an increasing number of people who think that this belief is what it is all about. I blame the cultural acceptance and population of BDSM brought about by modern media.

Curse you E L James

 

[All_4_Love]

Speaking ONLY for myself... not looking to be corrected or to debate.

Please keep in mind that I'm still coming to terms with understanding my feelings and preferences. I was also raised in an environment where my father was the head of the household. This may have something to do with my feelings as well.

Being inherently submissive, there is a feeling. I am hesitant to label it as inferior. I have what I would consider to be a healthy self esteem and self confidence.

This feeling, when in the presence of people with a dominant nature, makes me feel hyper aware, a strong desire to please, and yes, perhaps inferior, for lack of a better word.

I regard men as the superior sex. Again, speaking only for myself, and most certainly not because I think I am less, but because I have a respect for our differences, and it is those differences that I hold in high esteem.

With that being said, when I have made a mistake, and there is disappointment shown from the person whom I hold in that regard, it is devastating for me. It is at that point that I feel the most inferior, so to speak.

I can't rationalize it. It is just who I am. It's how I feel. I wouldn't go so far as to say this is a truism. It's just the inherent nature of my being.

This is not sexual in nature, as I feel this way around men that I'm not sexually attracted to. With anyone else, there is respect, love, and compassion, and I still hold them in high regard, but there is no feeling of inequality. It's a feeling of complete equality and embracing and sharing of our humanness, and our similarities, as opposed to our differences.

 

[Netzach]

Why do some people consider this a truism?

Discuss and defend your point of view.

No. I've been served by too many strong people of quality to suffer this outlook.

It's a lot of people's kink.

It's a lot of people's intellectual boner.

It's satisfying on a day you're feeling fascist. (And who doesn't have those?)

I'm intrigued by the construct, don't get me wrong. There are ways that certain people are superior to other people and it's interesting to magnify those strengths and weaknesses and make a self-made myth out of them. Good times.

But it's basically an illusion. Most people need to hide from that fact about self-granted or self-denied power, so they do.

If you took everyone in the SM world and put us onto a primitive planet, I think a lot of interesting survival stories would emerge that would belie the "I am Dominant I am Superior" myths we make up about ourselves.

 

[Emergingwoman]

Great topic!!! Very curious on all the thoughts.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

To answer your first question, no. There is nothing inherent to these types of relationships. They are each as unique as the individuals in them.

Now to your second question: it is all relative. From their point of view it is true. You can disagree with them all you want but your odds of changing their beliefs are no greater than their odds of changing your beliefs.

That being said there does seem to be an increasing number of people who think that this belief is what it is all about. I blame the cultural acceptance and population of BDSM brought about by modern media.

Curse you E L James

Nice analysis, bj! Last line is a keeper!

Speaking ONLY for myself... not looking to be corrected or to debate.

Please keep in mind that I'm still coming to terms with understanding my feelings and preferences. I was also raised in an environment where my father was the head of the household. This may have something to do with my feelings as well.

Being inherently submissive, there is a feeling. I am hesitant to label it as inferior. I have what I would consider to be a healthy self esteem and self confidence.

This feeling, when in the presence of people with a dominant nature, makes me feel hyper aware, a strong desire to please, and yes, perhaps inferior, for lack of a better word.

I regard men as the superior sex. Again, speaking only for myself, and most certainly not because I think I am less, but because I have a respect for our differences, and it is those differences that I hold in high esteem.

With that being said, when I have made a mistake, and there is disappointment shown from the person whom I hold in that regard, it is devastating for me. It is at that point that I feel the most inferior, so to speak.

I can't rationalize it. It is just who I am. It's how I feel. I wouldn't go so far as to say this is a truism. It's just the inherent nature of my being.

This is not sexual in nature, as I feel this way around men that I'm not sexually attracted to. With anyone else, there is respect, love, and compassion, and I still hold them in high regard, but there is no feeling of inequality. It's a feeling of complete equality and embracing and sharing of our humanness, and our similarities, as opposed to our differences.

Excellent discussion of your point(s) of view, All_4_Love, and clear, logical explication of your feelings and means of dealing with the topic in your own life. Thank you!

No. I've been served by too many strong people of quality to suffer this outlook.

It's a lot of people's kink.

It's a lot of people's intellectual boner.

It's satisfying on a day you're feeling fascist. (And who doesn't have those?)

I'm intrigued by the construct, don't get me wrong. There are ways that certain people are superior to other people and it's interesting to magnify those strengths and weaknesses and make a self-made myth out of them. Good times.

But it's basically an illusion. Most people need to hide from that fact about self-granted or self-denied power, so they do.

If you took everyone in the SM world and put us onto a primitive planet, I think a lot of interesting survival stories would emerge that would belie the "I am Dominant I am Superior" myths we make up about ourselves.

Netz, I had hoped you would toss your $0.02 in, because you *think* before you type, unlike some on the board (NOT referring to the prior responders!), and you often, as here, broaden the basic topic into something that encourages the rest of us to think along tangents we might not otherwise travel.

Great topic!!! Very curious on all the thoughts.

Share yours, please?

ETA: For those not aware, yes, I *was* an English teacher who focused on critical thinking skills...

 

[IrisAlthea]

I have no problem with someone declaring themselves inferior to someone or to a group of people.
I do however have a problem with people declaring a whole group of people inferior to another group, even when they put themselves in the inferior group.

I do see the hotness in this but if I made everything I find hot into a view of life/society/moral/ principle etc, I'd be wearing one of those funny shirts that tie strangely in the back in no time.

 

[KoPilot]

No. I've been served by too many strong people of quality to suffer this outlook.

It's a lot of people's kink.

It's a lot of people's intellectual boner.

It's satisfying on a day you're feeling fascist. (And who doesn't have those?)

I'm intrigued by the construct, don't get me wrong. There are ways that certain people are superior to other people and it's interesting to magnify those strengths and weaknesses and make a self-made myth out of them. Good times.

But it's basically an illusion. Most people need to hide from that fact about self-granted or self-denied power, so they do.

If you took everyone in the SM world and put us onto a primitive planet, I think a lot of interesting survival stories would emerge that would belie the "I am Dominant I am Superior" myths we make up about ourselves.

P much this.

Also I think it's very much an extension of misogyny since so many folks seem to use "sub" and "female" interchangeably.

 

[BiBunny]

I think I'm inherently superior to everyone.

Does that count?

 

[IrisAlthea]

I think I'm inherently superior to everyone.

Does that count?

How else could you feel, being the SpiderBunny?

 

[All_4_Love]

P much this.

Also I think it's very much an extension of misogyny since so many folks seem to use "sub" and "female" interchangeably.

Whoa...

Misogyny is a very strong word.

 

[All_4_Love]

I think I'm inherently superior to everyone.

Does that count?

Yes! It counts! You are what you believe!

 

[BiBunny]

How else could you feel, being the SpiderBunny?

Yes! It counts! You are what you believe!

Why, thank you, my darlings.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

I think I'm inherently superior to everyone.

Does that count?

I think you're inherently superior to the vast majority of the human race. Dayum raght it counts!

 

[IrisAlthea]

Whoa...

Misogyny is a very strong word.

This is a topic that will provoke a lot of strong feelings.

 

[KoPilot]

Whoa...

Misogyny is a very strong word.

How so?

Also, how is the tendency to equate femininity and/or female body parts with submissiveness not misogynistic?

 

[DVS]

I think we have all sorts of beliefs in this. I do think there are some who believe that inferior or weaker means submissive, by default. And some believe that by choice. But, there are a fair amount of strong women in their day to day lives that don't feel inferior at all. They just choose to be submissive in some areas of their lives. Men, too. Many CEOs tend to be submissive in their sexual tendencies.

When you talk about sex, you talk about a vast and varied topic. Sexual urges are defined by childhood experiences, youthful urges as well as the genes we are born with. Two people can be the same in every other way, but if one of them experiences something significant in their formative years that the other doesn't, it could change that person's outlook on life.

There is no black and white. There are no rules to how someone should be or will be. There are only choices made by individuals. The choices one makes are defined by so many things, so many life experiences. This is why sex is such an interesting yet complex topic. This is why this forum is so popular by confused newbies seeking answers to their new found sexual desires.

PYL and pyl came to be because labels were getting too involved. Picking your label is so much simpler than the terminology and hieroglyphics that had become of the labeling system. Between two consenting adults, if it feels good, it must be good. But, in some cases, if it hurts, it might be even better. Case closed.

 

[Collar_N_Cuffs]

Why do some people consider this a truism?

Discuss and defend your point of view.

I know it is more complex than this, but it can be boiled down to fit in a nutshell. Much of the time in personal, social and business situations inferior intellect (looks, strength, height, etc.) does end up bowing to a superior being. This becomes the norm, and people accept it in all aspects of life as opposed to questioning and analyzing. When it comes to something so complicated and varied add PYL / pyl, not many stop to consider, they simply apply the convenient label where it seems to fit most logically: superior PYL and inferior pyl.

And no, it's not my reality either Although currently identifying as a sub I feel in no way inferior, even to Sir... The same thing goes if I am topping someone - I would not find them inferior simply because of our sexual or relationship dynamic. I would base that solely on their worth as a person (and self worth makes a huge impression, people. Just saying...)

 

[BiBunny]

I think you're inherently superior to the vast majority of the human race. Dayum raght it counts!

And thank you, too, my dear.

Lit is so good for a narcissist's ego.

 

[eastern sun]

in·fe·ri·or

adjective
1. lower in rank, status, or quality
2. (legal definition - of a court or tribunal) able to have its decisions overturned by a higher court

noun
1. a person lower than another in rank, status, or ability.


sub·mis·sive

adjective
ready to conform to the authority or will of others; meekly obedient or passive.

The statement would be considered a truism because the definition of submissive implies a willingness to acknowledge a difference in rank and/or status. I don't think it follows that a submissive person is lower in quality, however. Even if some would like to believe it.

 

[Emergingwoman]

Tendencies

It's such a mind bender. I often think about my submissive desires, with some guilt-my parents raised me well, and I think they are a result of seeking balance. Men my age are like little puppies that will do anything to go on a date, kiss, sex,...
My submissive desires may be a way of seeking men in a take charge role. That said I am not in the least interested in a 24/7 Ds lifestyle. It's more in a playful way. That said.... Men! Confidence please!!!

 

[Stella_Omega]

it would be easy to blame this trend on heteronormative mainstreamers entering BDSM, except that the leather clubs used to try to maintain the same dynamic. Tops-- Masters-- could run the clubs, not bottoms, slaves. However... nothing got done in a timely fashion in most cases, until the clubs began electing the less superior types -- who would talk to each other and damn the protocol.

 

[All_4_Love]

in·fe·ri·or

adjective
1. lower in rank, status, or quality
2. (legal definition - of a court or tribunal) able to have its decisions overturned by a higher court

noun
1. a person lower than another in rank, status, or ability.


sub·mis·sive

adjective
ready to conform to the authority or will of others; meekly obedient or passive.

The statement would be considered a truism because the definition of submissive implies a willingness to acknowledge a difference in rank and/or status. I don't think it follows that a submissive person is lower in quality, however. Even if some would like to believe it.

Nice post, Eastern Sun.

Succinct and powerful.

Thank you.

 

[FunwithRyleigh]

In a play scene, if someone wants to feel superior or inferior, I think that can make for a great dynamic and there can be a lot of fun there.

However, as a way of life, I don't want the people that I'm with to feel superior or inferior to me. We are all equals - each of us bringing a different part of the puzzle to the table. Each is important to make the full picture bright and beautiful.

I had a guy tell me once that he believed very much in female supremacy. He wanted to serve me, but I just wasn't willing to put myself on a pedestal and wait to fall off. Several view submission as a gift of themselves - and I believe that to be true to a point. So, my question to him was, if you are my gift, then why do I want an inferior product? Why would I not want the best of the best? Why would I expect a gift that is less than what I could give? Of course I want my sub to be my equal, or even better. Then how much sweeter the gift of the submission?

In my mentoring classes, the instructor's made one thing very clear - a truth that I found enlightening then, and I guide myself by now: You can't give something away that you don't own.

If you consider yourself submissive - you better own yourself first. Know your wants, needs, desires. Know what you can afford to give away and still be true to yourself.

If you consider yourself dominant - you better own yourself first and have your act together. Don't even consider taking someone else's life into your control if you can't manage your own. That is simply irresponsible.

I also believe that most of the fun that comes from a great scene is built on the exchange of energy or power in that scene. That means that both parties have to come to the table with power or energy to begin with. If you aren't exchanging the power or energy, then one person is giving all - the other taking all. That won't last for long - it is too draining and in the end, kills the play and probably the relationship.

Please note that I spoke of play scenes in these examples. I play with many people - on both sides of the flogger - but I am only intimate with my domestic partner. We have a D/s dynamic. Most of us can't live a true D/s 24/7. Life gets in the way of that. And I definitely want my equal or better in my domestic relationship. We classify ourselves as 'companions,' and that is how we see each other daily - but there is always a hint of the D/s - finding ways in as we can.

Thanks for reading my rambling.

Ryleigh

 

[IrisAlthea]

in·fe·ri·or

adjective
1. lower in rank, status, or quality
2. (legal definition - of a court or tribunal) able to have its decisions overturned by a higher court

noun
1. a person lower than another in rank, status, or ability.


sub·mis·sive

adjective
ready to conform to the authority or will of others; meekly obedient or passive.

The statement would be considered a truism because the definition of submissive implies a willingness to acknowledge a difference in rank and/or status. I don't think it follows that a submissive person is lower in quality, however. Even if some would like to believe it.

Yes, I think that part of why this is provoking strong feelings is the part about superiority in ability, quality and even worth.

What rubs me the wrong way though, as I said before, is when people link superiority to some kind of traditional authority where a group has automatic authority based on some cultural, religious or other belief of theirs and then extend this ranking system of theirs to invole others who do not share this belief system.