Is oriental racist? Alternatives?

[AwkwardlySet]

This is a reference to the region the food is from. The Far East is the Orient. The food served is Orential, repaired, and served by Asians.

I know. I was saying it in the sense that those Chinese people who opened those restaurants clearly don't find the word "Oriental" offensive.

 

[God_Above]

Yes, Asians can own or operate Oriental things or places.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

No, you have the right to your speech. Just that you don't get to both speak 'freely' and not have people think you're a knob.

My friend David hates being called Dave. I'm perfectly free to call him Dave, but if I do, knowing he hates it, he and others will think I'm a cunt. Same principle.

It's not a good example. We are all within our rights to demand that people don't use forms of our personal names in a way we dislike. Those are our own names. I had students who asked me not to call them by their last names for no other reason but because they didn't like it. I obliged, of course, even if their last names weren't exotic or had any funny connotation. Those were their own names.
Now, if someone called me a teacher (which I am) and I demanded to be called, say, an "educationalist" instead, would the person who refused to do so be an asshole? If there is no rational or even true emotional reason why someone wants you to stop using a perfectly respectable (general, not personal) word in relation to them, isn't that a sort of bullying on your rights to speak freely? I am just saying that if something is a general word, make your case as to why it's offensive to you. Its historical usage; some of your personal bad experiences; because it provokes some bad emotions in you due to some specific context and so on. Those are all valid reasons.

For example, years ago, I remember there was a motion in EU parliament by a Swiss parliamentary to stop using the word "mother" because it was allegedly a symbol of women's subservience, a symbol of a woman who gives birth to kids, stays home and looks after them, cooks and cleans for her husband and so on. Imagine that. I remember it vividly although I can't seem to find the news about it as I can't recall the name of that Swiss parliamentary. It's that kind of idiocy I was talking about.

 

[God_Above]

Now, if someone called me a teacher (which I am) and I demanded to be called, say, an "educationalist" instead, would the person who refused to do so be an asshole? If there is no rational or even true emotional reason why someone wants you to stop using a perfectly respectable (general, not personal) word in relation to them, isn't that a sort of bullying on your rights to speak freely?

Despite outrage at the time, Policeman, Fireman and Mailman became Police Officer, Firefighter and Mail Carrier.

It pays to think, respect others and accept change.

 

[TadOverdon]

Despite outrage at the time, Policeman, Fireman and Mailman became Police Officer, Firefighter and Mail Carrier.

It pays to think, respect others and accept change.

This.

 

[SamBomb]

I know. I was saying it in the sense that those Chinese people who opened those restaurants clearly don't find the word "Oriental" offensive.

You don't know.

People aren't Oriental, places and things are. A restaurant being called oriental is FINE, a person no.

 

[KeithD]

You don't know.

People aren't Oriental, places and things are. A restaurant being called oriental is FINE, a person no.

Agree, but I haven't really seen people referred to as "Oriental" by anyone. I've seen it used mainly for carpets.

The origin of the word, incidentally, is from the French for "east," which points to why the term is now pretty obsolete. It shows a time when Europeans/Americans spoke as if they were the center of the world. Maybe some still do. I have to catch myself every once in a while not to do so, as I grew up in the era (I've already noted that two of my university degrees are marked "foreign affairs," which is U.S.-myopic. The same degree now is marked "international relations").

This isn't quite the same as racism, though. It's more a nation-based view of others.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

You don't know.

People aren't Oriental, places and things are. A restaurant being called oriental is FINE, a person no.

You don't know either. I never said anything about people being called Orientals. I just said that the word itself clearly isn't offensive to some Asians since they use it in the names of their restaurants.

 

[God_Above]

That post is a bit awkward to say the least.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Despite outrage at the time, Policeman, Fireman and Mailman became Police Officer, Firefighter and Mail Carrier.

It pays to think, respect others and accept change.

Not a good example in this particular sense. This is the case where a word was changed because it was clearly going against gender equality. A woman cop being called a policeman doesn't make much sense. The word was deprecated. There are words that don't go against anything, but someone finds a reason to tie some negative connotation to it. I am just saying we should all be sensible and rational in those cases and not react in panic when someone claims they are being offended by whatever.

Also, I see this as all of us having some sensible and rational discussion about these issues, and, to be honest, I've had enough of people replying with snarky attitudes and indignation. You all claim to be progressive, so at least respect the fact that there are people who think differently and respect their right to a different opinion.

 

[SamBomb]

Not a good example in this particular sense. This is the case where a word was changed because it was clearly going against gender equality. A woman cop being called a policeman doesn't make much sense. The word was deprecated. There are words that don't go against anything, but someone finds a reason to tie some negative connotation to it. I am just saying we should all be sensible and rational in those cases and not react in panic when someone claims they are being offended by whatever.

Also, I see this as all of us having some sensible and rational discussion about these issues, and, to be honest, I've had enough of people replying with snarky attitudes and indignation. You all claim to be progressive, so at least respect the fact that there are people who think differently and respect their right to a different opinion.

What is your different opinion?

Oriental is always fine for things, not for people. That's been the case forever.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Won't know that if you don't call them an Oriental rather than Chinese or Asian.

I know. I was saying it in the sense that those Chinese people who opened those restaurants clearly don't find the word "Oriental" offensive.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I know. I was saying it in the sense that those Chinese people who opened those restaurants clearly don't find the word "Oriental" offensive.

It establishes that they don't find it offensive in the context of a name chosen by a Chinese person for a Chinese restaurant. It may be unwise to assume that a word that's inoffensive in one specific context remains inoffensive when used in different contexts.

My partner sometimes says "I'm an idiot" if she mislays something or forgets it. That doesn't mean anybody else gets to call her an idiot without giving offense.

For example, years ago, I remember there was a motion in EU parliament by a Swiss parliamentary to stop using the word "mother" because it was allegedly a symbol of women's subservience, a symbol of a woman who gives birth to kids, stays home and looks after them, cooks and cleans for her husband and so on. Imagine that. I remember it vividly although I can't seem to find the news about it as I can't recall the name of that Swiss parliamentary. It's that kind of idiocy I was talking about.

Forgive my skepticism, but when I hear this kind of "PC gone mad" story without a source it almost always turns out to be a misrepresentation of what actually happened.

Usually it turns out to be something much less extreme. For instance, somebody notes that media are much more prone to refer to a woman as "mother of..." than they are to refer to a man as "father of" in the same kind of situation, points out the implicit sexism, and suggests that women should only be referred to as "mothers" or "mother of" when their children are actually relevant to the discussion.

And then some dishonest hack twists that into PC GONE MAD - BRUSSELS BUREAUCRATS WANT TO ABOLISH THE WORD "MOTHER".

 

[Bramblethorn]

Agree, but I haven't really seen people referred to as "Oriental" by anyone. I've seen it used mainly for carpets.

It's pretty much obsolete these days, but a rep from Illinois got some hostile reactions after using "Orientals" in 2016: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-...g-town-halls-cleansing-orientals-used-n728816

That same year the House also voted to remove a couple of 1970s-era references to "Orientals" in federal law: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/u-s-house-votes-remove-word-oriental-federal-law-n473861

 

[Nurek]

You're right, Bramblethorn, regarding PC Gone Mad; and eventually we've got to categorically refuse to comply, and by that singular act overturn it all simply by that singular act... and your layout of previous definitions was a good argument.
Yet NBC is in and of itself quite a questionable source.

 

[Nurek]

What is your different opinion?

Oriental is always fine for things, not for people. That's been the case forever.

No, it has not been removed from regarding people, Sambomb, nor will it; the reason why is it simply refers to the region the individual is coming from; beyond that: that's reading into these things items that do not follow.

 

[tenyari]

What is your different opinion?

Oriental is always fine for things, not for people. That's been the case forever.

Well, when I was a kid in the 70s we were calling some people Negros and other people Orientals but well... it changed for both. At about the same time.

(Technically I am both of those, though not in equal amounts and I don't pass for either. People would call me Mexican - which I am not. But some folks think anyone who's a certain look is Mexican... a look that is actually not even common in Mexico because most people's idea of a Mexican is an Indigenous Central American from somewhere like Guatemala - which I am also not.)

But this might also be regional.

In California calling someone Oriental or Negro lost acceptability way back when - but my understanding is that Oriental was still being used in Europe if not presently then up until quite recently.

In the UK - how do people split the difference when referring to one person of Indian ancestry and another of Chinese ancestry? Here in California one of them is South Asian and the other is East Asian - and if they're a local 'American' gets tacked on to the end - but only when speaking ABOUT their ethnicity. Otherwise they're just American (and yeah, we know that's an error because a person from Peru is also an American - but saying "USAan" has never quite rolled off the tongue smoothly).

Originally 'Orient' referred to places like Iran. Thus the 'oriental rug' that gets people confused all the time because it means a rug made in the Persian style.

 

[TheRedChamber]

In the UK - how do people split the difference when referring to one person of Indian ancestry and another of Chinese ancestry? Here in California one of them is South Asian and the other is East Asian - and if they're a local 'American' gets tacked on to the end - but only when speaking ABOUT their ethnicity. Otherwise they're just American (and yeah, we know that's an error because a person from Peru is also an American - but saying "USAan" has never quite rolled off the tongue smoothly).

I don't think there is a particularly elegant way to do it - with individuals, the best thing to do is to find out where they are from/their heritage quickly and use that (or not if it's not relevant). The thing with the UK is that we have a very very small number of Japanese and Korean immigrants and a slightly larger but still relatively small number of Chinese immigrants*. Therefore it rarely makes sense to talk about CJK together (not sure it does in the US either), just refer to Anglo-Chinese.

We have a much larger population from the Indian-subcontinent. The British census asks about Asian and then breaks it out into Indian, Pakistani, Other, Bangladeshi and Chinese (in descending order of population) You might end up using East Asian, South Asian, South East Asian if you were writing formally or academically (with a clear definition included). Generally speaking though I'm not going to be describing anyone as looking Asian, I'm probably going to hedge saying 'She looks like she has Indian-heritage or maybe Pakistani...')

(* including people like those who run my local take-away whose family has been through Vietnam in their history but still count themselves as Chinese heritage)

 

[alohadave]

To make myself a bit more clear, I believe that someone claiming that some word is offensive to them shouldn't be automatically accepted.

It should be accepted in interactions with that person. That supposes that you care about the person enough to respect their wishes. If not, you likely are not close enough that their preferences matter to you.

If you have some objective reason, then yeah, of course, but if not, you are just inhibiting my right to speak freely.

You are free to speak however you wish, to whomever you wish. However there are plenty of situations where you self-censor your speech based on who you are around or speaking to. You likely don't talk the same way to your mother as you do to your mates or your coworkers.

The things you say and how you say them may have consequences that have nothing to do with your 'right' to say them.

 

[alohadave]

Forgive my skepticism, but when I hear this kind of "PC gone mad" story without a source it almost always turns out to be a misrepresentation of what actually happened.

Usually it turns out to be something much less extreme. For instance, somebody notes that media are much more prone to refer to a woman as "mother of..." than they are to refer to a man as "father of" in the same kind of situation, points out the implicit sexism, and suggests that women should only be referred to as "mothers" or "mother of" when their children are actually relevant to the discussion.

And then some dishonest hack twists that into PC GONE MAD - BRUSSELS BUREAUCRATS WANT TO ABOLISH THE WORD "MOTHER".

Hawaii recently changed some legal definitions for families to remove gendered language and people made it out like they outlawed the terms mother and father.

What it really does is opens the doors to more inclusive family setups to be recognized for family law. If people decide to use those terms outside of the specific legal arena of family law in Hawaii, then it's because they find them useful, not because they were mandated by law.

Here's the law for anyone interested in reading it. It's fairly innocuous IMO.

https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/sessions/session2023/bills/SB109_CD1_.HTM

 

[MrHereWriting]

Is oriental racist? Alternatives?​

This is the last place you want to come to for this kind of advice, no matter what year the question was asked.

 

[intim8]

How would you write about a character who accentuates their Caucasianness?

"... to highlight their Occidendal features"

 

[AwkwardlySet]

It should be accepted in interactions with that person. That supposes that you care about the person enough to respect their wishes. If not, you likely are not close enough that their preferences matter to you.



You are free to speak however you wish, to whomever you wish. However there are plenty of situations where you self-censor your speech based on who you are around or speaking to. You likely don't talk the same way to your mother as you do to your mates or your coworkers.

The things you say and how you say them may have consequences that have nothing to do with your 'right' to say them.

What you are saying is reasonable, of course. We all use different speech depending on who we are having a conversation with. I also understand that someone might get offended if I am not using their preferred term. I was mostly talking in general, not in the sense of whether someone would get offended or not because that is also very much subjective, but whether someone would be in the right to feel offended if I didn't want to use their preferred term because I thought the term I was using is common and perfectly acceptable. Here I am not talking about any terms that are racially, religiously, or nationally sensitive or even personal names, I am mostly talking about general terms and problems that arise with their usage in the society I live in. It's hard to convey this properly without giving an example from real life and I am reluctant to do it for obvious reasons.

 

[PrincessArianrhod]

Late to the party, as always, but I have literally just submitted an edit to my last posted story to remove all instances of the word "oriental", in light of some honest and forthright comments pointing out it's potentially offensive connotations. In the UK, as far as I know, it is not considered a slur, hence my unwitting and repeated use of it in the aforementioned story (Waiting Room). There are enough alternatives to avoid its use in reference to people, I think. While I do think there can be some oversensitivity generally these days when it comes to cultural and ethnic references, there's no harm in ensuring your vernacular has the most universal appeal.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

"... to highlight their Occidendal features"

Without trying to say that ‘oriental’ remains suitable, to answer your question, I wouldn’t have used ‘Occidental features’, but I have certainly described somebody using the word ‘Nordic’. In any case, if somebody used it to describe me, I might be a bit puzzled as to why, but I wouldn’t be offended.

Not my call, in any case.