God and stuff

[EternalFantasies]

I need help: my cynicism just derailed and I'm worried I may have upgraded to agnostic. The logic is compelling.

This not a pro-life thing because zygot's don't talk But it'll probably descend into a troll thread. Fuck. Forgot that but I've posted it now. Oh well

"In a mother’s womb were two babies. One asked the other: “Do you believe in life after delivery?” The other replied, “Why, of course. There has to be something after delivery. Maybe we are here to prepare ourselves for what we will be later.”
“Nonsense” said the first. “There is no life after delivery. What kind of life would that be?”

The second said, “I don’t know, but there will be more light than here. Maybe we will walk with our legs and eat from our mouths. Maybe we will have other senses that we can’t understand now.”

The first replied, “That is absurd. Walking is impossible. And eating with our mouths? Ridiculous! The umbilical cord supplies nutrition and everything we need. But the umbilical cord is so short. Life after delivery is to be logically excluded.”

The second insisted, “Well I think there is something and maybe it’s different than it is here. Maybe we won’t need this physical cord anymore.”

The first replied, “Nonsense. And moreover if there is life, then why has no one has ever come back from there? Delivery is the end of life, and in the after-delivery there is nothing but darkness and silence and oblivion. It takes us nowhere.”

“Well, I don’t know,” said the second, “but certainly we will meet Mother and she will take care of us.”

The first replied “Mother? You actually believe in Mother? That’s laughable. If Mother exists then where is She now?”

The second said, “She is all around us. We are surrounded by her. We are of Her. It is in Her that we live. Without Her this world would not and could not exist.”

Said the first: “Well I don’t see Her, so it is only logical that She doesn’t exist.”

To which the second replied, “Sometimes, when you’re in silence and you focus and you really listen, you can perceive Her presence, and you can hear Her loving voice, calling down from above.”

There is a God.

This doesn't (allegedly) receive much attention from psychologists, but you might nonetheless be interested in Julian Jaynes' bicameral hypothesis, and the relation to magical/spiritual thinking.

Trust me, no.

 

[BlondeAmbition4RP]

"What is truth?"

I think it's interesting that the Bible says Pontius Pilate asked Jesus that question hypothetically and then walked off without waiting for an answer.

Jesus had just told him, "The reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."

I've wondered before what might have happened if Pontius Pilate had asked the question sincerely instead of hypothetically, and then had stayed to listen.

 

[Oblimo]

Stickygirl- there is nothing analogous between the demonstrative, empirical biological process of conception, gestation, and birth and the unfalsifiable, ineffable, numinal process of metempsychosis.

The Allegory of Plato’s Cave gets closer: for people shackled in a cave who have known nothing but shadows on the cave walls, what could they know of the Sun?

And Pascal’s Wager is utter bullshit. “Believe in God = go to Heaven?” Maybe if you are a Unitarian. Otherwise there’s this little thing called doctrine that Pascal’s Wager completely ignores, because under the Wager all religions, particularly the mutually exclusive ones, are equally beneficial to believe in.

That’s why the most Christian thinkers I know reject Intelligent Design in the same breath as the Wager, BTW, because accepting ID, much like accepting the Wager, requires a rejection of the divinity of Jesus Christ in favor of a Generic Benevolent Godhead.

 

[Oblimo]

There is a God.

Call me old fashioned but I still believe there is only one true God.

And he lives in this lake.

And his name is Zorgo.
—Thomas Lennon

 

[ThatsTheGuy]

Call me old fashioned but I still believe there is only one true God.

And he lives in this lake.

And his name is Zorgo.
—Thomas Lennon

Is Zorgo a big fish no one can catch?

 

[Radiohead]

Stickygirl- there is nothing analogous between the demonstrative, empirical biological process of conception, gestation, and birth and the unfalsifiable, ineffable, numinal process of metempsychosis.

The Allegory of Plato’s Cave gets closer: for people shackled in a cave who have known nothing but shadows on the cave walls, what could they know of the Sun?

And Pascal’s Wager is utter bullshit. “Believe in God = go to Heaven?” Maybe if you are a Unitarian. Otherwise there’s this little thing called doctrine that Pascal’s Wager completely ignores, because under the Wager all religions, particularly the mutually exclusive ones, are equally beneficial to believe in.

That’s why the most Christian thinkers I know reject Intelligent Design in the same breath as the Wager, BTW, because accepting ID, much like accepting the Wager, requires a rejection of the divinity of Jesus Christ in favor of a Generic Benevolent Godhead.

Intelligent design and God isnt a null group.

The people you talk to however.

 

[stickygirl]

Stickygirl- there is nothing analogous between the demonstrative, empirical biological process of conception, gestation, and birth and the unfalsifiable, ineffable, numinal process of metempsychosis.

That's some pretty fancy words you got there and I won't for a second pretend to understand them. Is your intention to intentionally obfuscate your proposal or do long words make you feel hot? Personally I find smart people who can explain stuff to me in terms that I can understand incredibly hot.

Hypoxia, Radiohead and Brian Cox are in the running for hotness: one is hot beyond belief; one is a mad as a bag of ferrets and one is an alt I fell for some years ago. Oblimo... not so much at this point, but it's early days.

 

[Oblimo]

Oops, sorry. I’ve gotten used to arguing with snobs. Force of habit.

A baby and its mother are the same kind of thing: flesh and bone. Likewise, the world outside the womb is the same “kind” of world as inside the womb — it’s made of matter, it obeys the “laws” of science. So a baby imagining a mother and a bigger world it has never seen is not doing the same thing as a person imagining a God and a Heaven. Heaven and God are qualitatively different, whereas Mother and outside are not. Mother and outside can be extrapolated scientifically (sorta, I’m installing some good lab equipment in the womb for this bit), God and Heaven can not.

So the parable has no oomph. However, that’s not a knock against spirituality. Someone still needs to make a value judgement on whether scientific extrapolation is somehow a superior way of analyzing things in the first place.

 

[stickygirl]

Oops, sorry. I’ve gotten used to arguing with snobs. Force of habit.

A baby and its mother are the same kind of thing: flesh and bone. Likewise, the world outside the womb is the same “kind” of world as inside the womb — it’s made of matter, it obeys the “laws” of science. So a baby imagining a mother and a bigger world it has never seen is not doing the same thing as a person imagining a God and a Heaven. Heaven and God are qualitatively different, whereas Mother and outside are not. Mother and outside can be extrapolated scientifically (sorta, I’m installing some good lab equipment in the womb for this bit), God and Heaven can not.

So the parable has no oomph. However, that’s not a knock against spirituality. Someone still needs to make a value judgement on whether scientific extrapolation is somehow a superior way of analyzing things in the first place.

Cool. The baby doesn't know about matter and science and stuff. Do you know about swirly-whirly spirit world? Aren't the frames of reference the important points here, not an imposed framework of science? Your argument smacks of the conceit of the science world, that prides itself on its open mindedness, then falls flat on its ass when fact disproves hypothesis.
Anyways, the whole god thing is designed to be an unknowable conundrum: that's at its heart.

 

[Radiohead]

That's some pretty fancy words you got there and I won't for a second pretend to understand them. Is your intention to intentionally obfuscate your proposal or do long words make you feel hot? Personally I find smart people who can explain stuff to me in terms that I can understand incredibly hot.

Hypoxia, Radiohead and Brian Cox are in the running for hotness: one is hot beyond belief; one is a mad as a bag of ferrets and one is an alt I fell for some years ago. Oblimo... not so much at this point, but it's early days.

I cant work out which I am, but certainly not hot

 

[God_Above]

Call me old fashioned but I still believe there is only one true God.

And he lives in this lake.

Floods are my thing.

And Locusts

 

[yukonnights]

Cool. The baby doesn't know about matter and science and stuff. Do you know about swirly-whirly spirit world? Aren't the frames of reference the important points here, not an imposed framework of science? Your argument smacks of the conceit of the science world, that prides itself on its open mindedness, then falls flat on its ass when fact disproves hypothesis.
Anyways, the whole god thing is designed to be an unknowable conundrum: that's at its heart.

There's religion, and there is spirituality. Sometimes the two are entwined but not always. I think "swirly-whirly spirit world" describes that unknown part pretty good. It sorta reminds me of the well known book "The Cloud Of Unknowing"... here's the Wikipedia introduction

The Cloud of Unknowing (Middle English: The Cloude of Unknowyng) is an anonymous work of Christian mysticism written in Middle English in the latter half of the 14th century. The text is a spiritual guide on contemplative prayer in the late Middle Ages. The underlying message of this work suggests that the way to know God is to abandon consideration of God's particular activities and attributes, and be courageous enough to surrender one's mind and ego to the realm of "unknowing", at which point one may begin to glimpse the nature of God. (source- Wikipedia)

I think stickygirl stated it very well in that the reference points for physical matter and spirit are different. Basically, one must abandon the attempt to correlate them. First one has to have an intuition/belief that there is more than the physical. We have ascribed that 'something more' the term spirit or spiritual. And like any other term, it's just a word to help us communicate concepts. One will not find scientific concepts useful in this discussion because they are simply of no use. In fact, as the Cloud Of Unknowing tries to show; No definable concept is the goal...it is spiritual understanding that is sought, not mental concepts.

Spirit has always been a mystery to mankind, and I believe it will always remain as such. The only proof, if one wants to stretch the point, is the observable change in the person who truly enters into that "cloud of unknowing". Buddhism, Sufism, and many other sects/cultures have similar pathways into the unknown. This in itself seems to be a testament to the validity of the concept of Spirit. Through history and location mankind has had the intuition that there is something more...that which we call Spirit. It seems that those who intuit Spirit and those who do not have always shared this planet... I have no idea why some "get it" and others don't.

 

[stickygirl]

So someone had this figured in the 14th century?! sheesh

The paradox is though, that as soon as a Buddhist etc finds out a bit of Unknowing Cloud, it becomes known - like Schrödinger's cat, or was it a dog? Science keeps pushing back the unknown and so we have to look for more and more cloudy stuff to call "mystery". Like if the two twins were smart enough, they'd have compared their heartbeats with the thump of mothers heart and thought wtaf is that?!

 

[yukonnights]

So someone had this figured in the 14th century?! sheesh

The paradox is though, that as soon as a Buddhist etc finds out a bit of Unknowing Cloud, it becomes known - like Schrödinger's cat, or was it a dog? Science keeps pushing back the unknown and so we have to look for more and more cloudy stuff to call "mystery". Like if the two twins were smart enough, they'd have compared their heartbeats with the thump of mothers heart and thought wtaf is that?!

I think the 'figuring out' has been going on way before the 14th century. Actually, my guess it's been around as long as we humans have been. But I think my words must have been 'clouded' It's more like discovering something that human words can never really express...the discoveries are not the method of entering into the space of spirit, the discovers are subtle but powerful to the inner being we truly are. One path to the discoveries may be in "unknowing"...the discoveries themselves are forever learned and life changing. They just aren't discoveries that can be shared, no matter how much one wants to...

Perhaps this helps make the point I'm trying for: The entrance into Spirit can take many forms, they can be described with words. The intercourse of Spirit to spirit is silent and no words can do justice to the conversation.

An example of this; At some point one goes from not being aware or interested in Spirit...then one moment in time comes along and after that there is an interest in Spirit. Why? What silent voice prompted such a thing? This is not the same as an emotional reaction to a sermon or speech...it is deeper and one knows it's a sincere interest. Perhaps the phrase "An ah-ha moment" is appropriate.

 

[yukonnights]

So someone had this figured in the 14th century?! sheesh

The paradox is though, that as soon as a Buddhist etc finds out a bit of Unknowing Cloud, it becomes known - like Schrödinger's cat, or was it a dog? Science keeps pushing back the unknown and so we have to look for more and more cloudy stuff to call "mystery". Like if the two twins were smart enough, they'd have compared their heartbeats with the thump of mothers heart and thought wtaf is that?!

That's a really good metaphor for the mystery we are experiencing Perhaps we just need to be calm and listen more closely...thanks for that, I'll stuff that in my suitcase and pull it out every once in awhile ~

 

[yukonnights]

I ran across this in today's Guardian; 'There is no such thing as past or future': physicist Carlo Rovelli on changing how we think about time. What do we know about time? Language tells us that it “passes”, it moves like a great river, inexorably dragging us with it, and, in the end, washes us up on its shore while it continues, unstoppable. Time flows. It moves ever forwards. Or does it?...

It's an interview/article/book review that looks at our concept of time and discusses in layman's terms some thoughts about that, here's an excerpt; ...Rovelli’s work as a physicist, in crude terms, occupies the large space left by Einstein on the one hand, and the development of quantum theory on the other. If the theory of general relativity describes a world of curved spacetime where everything is continuous, quantum theory describes a world in which discrete quantities of energy interact. In Rovelli’s words, “quantum mechanics cannot deal with the curvature of spacetime, and general relativity cannot account for quanta”.

Both theories are successful; but their apparent incompatibility is an open problem, and one of the current tasks of theoretical physics is to attempt to construct a conceptual framework in which they both work. Rovelli’s field of loop theory, or loop quantum gravity, offers a possible answer to the problem, in which spacetime itself is understood to be granular, a fine structure woven from loops.

It seems very relevant to this discussion to me by showing how little we actually do understand about our self and where we fit in the larger picture. For anyone wishing to read the article, here's a link -> https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/apr/14/carlo-rovelli-exploding-commonsense-notions-order-of-time-interview

 

[Rollinbones]

our gods are created and understood within the bounds of our own human intelligence. We will never know the truth until we transcend the biological limits of our own intellectual capacity.

 

[Hypoxia]

Many peoples have invented many rites, some involving deities, spirits, demons, souls, sorceries, sacraments, etc. Other peoples never bothered. Deciding which if any rites, deities, godlings, souls, magics, etc to bother with isn't an objective decision. Just do it. Or not.

But remember: reality is what's left after you stop believing. Folks who get by nicely without believing in spiritual matters might be on to something, eh?

 

[ThatsTheGuy]

Many peoples have invented many rites, some involving deities, spirits, demons, souls, sorceries, sacraments, etc. Other peoples never bothered. Deciding which if any rites, deities, godlings, souls, magics, etc to bother with isn't an objective decision. Just do it. Or not.

But remember: reality is what's left after you stop believing. Folks who get by nicely without believing in spiritual matters might be on to something, eh?

Simply curious about this post I am - Are there any implications to agnostic or atheism?

 

[stickygirl]

Simply curious about this post I am - Are there any implications to agnostic or atheism?

Yes - God will see to it you burn in hell along with the Methodists and Mormons

 

[ThatsTheGuy]

Yes - God will see to it you burn in hell along with the Methodists and Mormons

Didn't like that inquiry?

Oh, back to your blabbering..........not this time. I'm fairly certain he has something clever in mind.

To be honest though, he's currently using the Methodists as a temporary vessel of sorts. Haven't discussed it w/him yet. Says I'm taking up too much of his time.

 

[Libsam]

"In a mother’s womb were two babies. One asked the other: “Do you believe in life after delivery?” The other replied, “Why, of course. There has to be something after delivery. Maybe we are here to prepare ourselves for what we will be later.”
“Nonsense” said the first. “There is no life after delivery. What kind of life would that be?”

The second said, “I don’t know, but there will be more light than here. Maybe we will walk with our legs and eat from our mouths. Maybe we will have other senses that we can’t understand now.”

The first replied, “That is absurd. Walking is impossible. And eating with our mouths? Ridiculous! The umbilical cord supplies nutrition and everything we need. But the umbilical cord is so short. Life after delivery is to be logically excluded.”

The second insisted, “Well I think there is something and maybe it’s different than it is here. Maybe we won’t need this physical cord anymore.”

The first replied, “Nonsense. And moreover if there is life, then why has no one has ever come back from there? Delivery is the end of life, and in the after-delivery there is nothing but darkness and silence and oblivion. It takes us nowhere.”

“Well, I don’t know,” said the second, “but certainly we will meet Mother and she will take care of us.”

The first replied “Mother? You actually believe in Mother? That’s laughable. If Mother exists then where is She now?”

The second said, “She is all around us. We are surrounded by her. We are of Her. It is in Her that we live. Without Her this world would not and could not exist.”

Said the first: “Well I don’t see Her, so it is only logical that She doesn’t exist.”

To which the second replied, “Sometimes, when you’re in silence and you focus and you really listen, you can perceive Her presence, and you can hear Her loving voice, calling down from above.”

To me, this looks like a divinely inspired metaphor. This is beautiful art that may help someone understand things. I would call this a Rationalist's metaphor. It's not perfect, but it is a tool.

This makes me jilly, stickygirl! It's gorgeous!

I'm familiar with this thought experiment, and it's obviously a tool for imparting an idea. I would also call it a divinely inspired metaphor, but t is an Empiricist's metaphor, and that's why one may be inclined to not call it art at first. Look at it again, recognize it as art.

 

[Hypoxia]

Some other outcomes of Pascal's wager:

* Zeus is very pissed that you worship Lord {JHWH} and not him. HELL.
* Lord {JHWH} uses the biblical belief system to identify suckers. HELL.
* Only a select 144,000 are Heaven-bound so faith is irrelevant. HELL.
* Lord {JHWH} is busy elsewhere and ignores Earthlings. WHATEVER.
* Every belief system has its own afterlife. Choose one you like best.

 

[yukonnights]

Our common problem is that we think we can use our mind and logic to apprehend the Mystery. The outcome of this approach are "religions". Religions are the creation of mankind, and are thus imperfect and often more harmful than beneficial. Here's a better way:

In God there is an infinitude of things which I cannot comprehend, nor possibly even reach in any way by thought; for it is the nature of the infinite that my nature, which is finite and limited, should not comprehend it.
Rene Descartes

Or another way to say it:

Those who worship God must worship in spirit and in truth.
Jesus the Christ

Debates about religion are born of pride and the fruit is always bitter and without nourishment. Seek instead to try and grasp the bigger messages. Ponder if you will, what is Spirit...what is Truth? Of course it is impossible, but at least one is moving in the right direction ~

 

[Hypoxia]

Reality is what remains when you stop believing.