God and stuff

[stickygirl]

Reality is what remains when you stop believing.

The problem with the whole concept that somehow we are greater than the sum of our parts, therefore we have access to something beyond the reality we can perceive and understand, is something where we can learn from history. Our history is littered with assumptions that we are the centre of the universe, the sun went round us, the earth is flat, the sun is driven by a bloke in a chariot, only humans use tools, if we split the atom we would disappear in a divine conflagration, that the CERN experimetns would open a black hole... jeez. Why can't mankind get their head around the fact that chance, statistical probablity has brought us where we are.
Somehow we are the pinnacle of something, we are so super important, so special... yet we measure our world in only three dimensions, perceive only a fraction of the EM spectrum, get sick when we go into space and have trouble patting our heads and rubbing our tummy. Pathetic really.

 

[thør]

And I thought I was special............

 

[ThatsTheGuy]

The problem with the whole concept that somehow we are greater than the sum of our parts, therefore we have access to something beyond the reality we can perceive and understand, is something where we can learn from history. Our history is littered with assumptions that we are the centre of the universe, the sun went round us, the earth is flat, the sun is driven by a bloke in a chariot, only humans use tools, if we split the atom we would disappear in a divine conflagration, that the CERN experimetns would open a black hole... jeez. Why can't mankind get their head around the fact that chance, statistical probablity has brought us where we are.
Somehow we are the pinnacle of something, we are so super important, so special... yet we measure our world in only three dimensions, perceive only a fraction of the EM spectrum, get sick when we go into space and have trouble patting our heads and rubbing our tummy. Pathetic really.

 

[stickygirl]

And I thought I was special............

Aww - you're both special
and a special man, with a special van will come take you away to a special house where we can keep you safe

Anyways, we still have sex and party - not necessarily with each other but

 

[IG_88]

The problem with the whole concept that somehow we are greater than the sum of our parts, therefore we have access to something beyond the reality we can perceive and understand, is something where we can learn from history. Our history is littered with assumptions that we are the centre of the universe, the sun went round us, the earth is flat, the sun is driven by a bloke in a chariot, only humans use tools, if we split the atom we would disappear in a divine conflagration, that the CERN experimetns would open a black hole... jeez. Why can't mankind get their head around the fact that chance, statistical probablity has brought us where we are.
Somehow we are the pinnacle of something, we are so super important, so special... yet we measure our world in only three dimensions, perceive only a fraction of the EM spectrum, get sick when we go into space and have trouble patting our heads and rubbing our tummy. Pathetic really.

Knowledge and the existence of an afterlife don't really have much to do with each other. It is and always will be impossible to know what happens after death. You either develop faith or you do not.
And believing because it's the safe bet isn't faith. If there is a God He is gonna know and I'm thinking He won't like it much.

 

[Hypoxia]

Aww - you're both special
and a special man, with a special van will come take you away to a special house where we can keep you safe

Whiskey Man's my friend, he's with me nearly all the time
He always joins me when I drink, and we get on just fine

Nobody has ever seen him, I'm the only one
Seemingly I must be mad, Insanity is fun
If that's the way it's done

Doctors say he just a figment of my twisted mind
If they can't see my Whiskey Man they must be going blind

Two men dressed in white collected me three days ago
They said there's only room for one and Whiskey Man can't go

Whiskey Man will waste away if he's left on his own
I can't even ring him 'cause he isn't on the phone
Hasn't got a home

Life is very gloomy in my little padded cell
It's a shame there wasn't room for Whiskey Man as well

Whiskey Man's my friend, he's with me nearly all the time
He always joins me when I drink, and we get on just fine
Just fine

 

[ThatsTheGuy]

Aww - you're both special
and a special man, with a special van will come take you away to a special house where we can keep you safe

Anyways, we still have play with ourselves - not necessarily with each other but

Yer a maniac I tell ya!

 

[yukonnights]

Knowledge and the existence of an afterlife don't really have much to do with each other. It is and always will be impossible to know what happens after death. You either develop faith or you do not.
And believing because it's the safe bet isn't faith. If there is a God He is gonna know and I'm thinking He won't like it much.

This is so very true. We all generally make our decisions, and their defense, based on knowledge we have acquired along the way. It's ironic that both 'believers' and 'atheists' claim the knowledge card in their arguments, when in fact actual provable "knowledge" of the unknowable Mystery is impossible to produce. The best we will ever have is simply the evidence of our existence and the material universe we can comprehend. It's we who make individual determinations based on this material reality...thus, the multitude of ideas and opinions about how it all came to be that are then pushed as fact.

The word "faith" has been distorted by this very thing. But the word "faith" is not best defined as a blind leap into the dark. (even though it has come to be used that way by some) Hope would better define that. Faith is an unshakable belief in something...like I have strong faith that the sun will indeed rise tomorrow...I would bet my life on it.

Sincere faith in one's "God" can only ever come by an inward experience that is unique and personal to the individual. Why some experience this and others do not is a mystery that I doubt will ever be solved.

Since such a unique inward experience is not what the atheist bases their belief on, the claim for some unique knowledge which disproves a "Creator" is nothing but self delusion...Spirit will never be proven by material facts, a book or a scientist in a lab.

 

[God_Above]

If there is a God He is gonna know and I'm thinking He won't like it much.

:: chuckles ::

This kid's in for a surprise for sure.

 

[Blue]

The word "faith" has been distorted by this very thing. But the word "faith" is not best defined as a blind leap into the dark. (even though it has come to be used that way by some) Hope would better define that. Faith is an unshakable belief in something...like I have strong faith that the sun will indeed rise tomorrow...I would bet my life on it.

That's actually a poor analogy in this instance.
The sun has risen every day for >1 trillion days in a row with no known exceptions. Realistically a few hundred astronomical years probably got missed when another planet smacked into Earth but whatever the reliability of the sun rising tomorrow is, it's way over 99.9999%.

When you say that it's going to rise again that's an extremely reliable prediction based on billions of years worth of substantiation, that's not at all comparable to 'faith' which yes, is pretty much a self-deceiving empty justification for believing something with no good reason.

I would bet my life on the sun rising tomorrow too, but my belief that it will certainly isn't unshakable and really neither should yours. There could be a weird astronomical phenomenon heading straight for us which will annihilate our entire planet tomorrow, however implausible.

Sincere faith in one's "God" can only ever come by an inward experience that is unique and personal to the individual. Why some experience this and others do not is a mystery that I doubt will ever be solved.

Since such a unique inward experience is not what the atheist bases their belief on, the claim for some unique knowledge which disproves a "Creator" is nothing but self delusion...Spirit will never be proven by material facts, a book or a scientist in a lab.

Well you just outlined the reason why some experience it and others don't.
I, I think quite rightly, don't see using emotions as a reliable indicator of truth (cause they're not) so I'm not going to use them to make decisions for me. So if I directly had a 'religious experience', saw the face of god and all, my immediate afterthought would be that I was either hallucinating, high, or had temporarily lost my mind.

I personally need to be way more aware of avoiding internal feelings when making decisions since I'm currently in a bit of a mental health pickle and think I might have early warning signs of schizophrenia. So in maybe a few years I may unfortunately become a prime example of why you can't trust your intuition or feelings.

 

[Que]

Knowledge and the existence of an afterlife don't really have much to do with each other. It is and always will be impossible to know what happens after death. You either develop faith or you do not.
And believing because it's the safe bet isn't faith. If there is a God He is gonna know and I'm thinking He won't like it much.

It is not faith, but faith is a continuum. From abject rejection to disbelief to healthy skepticism to cauyious belief to staunch belief to blind faith.

My view is that better living in this life should be rewarding. If there is a God and a life to come, I see no reason He would penalize skepticism coupled with good works. The capicity for doubt is innate, it must surely be a design feature, not a bug.

 

[yukonnights]

That's actually a poor analogy in this instance.
The sun has risen every day for >1 trillion days in a row with no known exceptions. Realistically a few hundred astronomical years probably got missed when another planet smacked into Earth but whatever the reliability of the sun rising tomorrow is, it's way over 99.9999%.

When you say that it's going to rise again that's an extremely reliable prediction based on billions of years worth of substantiation, that's not at all comparable to 'faith' which yes, is pretty much a self-deceiving empty justification for believing something with no good reason.

I would bet my life on the sun rising tomorrow too, but my belief that it will certainly isn't unshakable and really neither should yours. There could be a weird astronomical phenomenon heading straight for us which will annihilate our entire planet tomorrow, however implausible.

I'm basing my thoughts on elements of the original Greek used in Christian writings. To that end, the word "faith" derives from the Greek "pistis" which connotes 'trust'. I mention this because of the shift in meaning that has occurred over the centuries since the original writings. Thus to have faith in something originally meant to have a strong trust in that, etc.

I in fact have an 'unshakable trust' in the Sun coming up tomorrow...if I could find someone to bet my entire 401 account, I would take that bet. But likewise, genuine trust in one's belief in whatever 'God' must come from somewhere? Since the discussion of God is really a discussion about Spirit, then such trust is difficult to acquire through non-spiritual means...i.e. through mental gymnastics. Granted, we are trapped in this body and our minds do play a part in our comprehension of the incomprehensible. Thus our understanding will always fall short of absolute truth. But that does not negate the reality that spiritual enlightenment does come upon some people. In the end, I think your less than 100% unshakable certainty about the Sun's arising is probably a good description of how even the most assured believer in Spirit feels about their assurance too...but sure enough to bet one's life is pretty darn assured

Well you just outlined the reason why some experience it and others don't.
I, I think quite rightly, don't see using emotions as a reliable indicator of truth (cause they're not) so I'm not going to use them to make decisions for me. So if I directly had a 'religious experience', saw the face of god and all, my immediate afterthought would be that I was either hallucinating, high, or had temporarily lost my mind.

I don't equate spiritual enlightenment to emotions. Emotions are typically transient and have little lasting effect on a person's worldview. Spiritual experiences are typically transformative in one's behavior. The annals of most every faith tradition have written documentation of these experiences. It is a presumptuous use of one's "mind and thought" to render such experiences false, for the simple fact that until one experiences a spiritual shift they have no mental basis to make a judgment at all...they are unlearned, so to speak.

I personally need to be way more aware of avoiding internal feelings when making decisions since I'm currently in a bit of a mental health pickle and think I might have early warning signs of schizophrenia. So in maybe a few years I may unfortunately become a prime example of why you can't trust your intuition or feelings.

I don't think it's just you who shouldn't trust feelings and emotion. As I said before, these are usually transient and have no real impact on one's course in life. But the main point is; One also cannot rely solely on intellect and mind to grasp the things of Spirit. For neither 'believer' or 'non-believer' is equipped with a mind that can grasp spiritual things...it is Spirit touching spirit, which we then try to interpret and comprehend as best we can. The well known book, Cloud Of Unknowing is a perfect title for such an experience. Sure, one can become an expert in doctrine...but that is a man made contrivance and has little to do with Spirit.

This is a difficult topic to grasp, much less articulate. I know I've fallen short in my attempt to clearly explain my thoughts. I really appreciate your comments wherever you pop up because they are meaningful. I'm saddened to hear that you are currently experiencing health issues and wish you the very best in your recovery ~ YN

 

[Hypoxia]

Sol does not rise and set. Terra spins. Rising and setting are local illusions.

Humans have invented zillions of deities, all indistinguishable from local illusions. Choosing one to worship is arbitrary. Pick the theology you like best.

I distrust faith. Science flies us to the moon. Faith flies us into skyscrapers.

 

[Blue]

I'm basing my thoughts on elements of the original Greek used in Christian writings. To that end, the word "faith" derives from the Greek "pistis" which connotes 'trust'. I mention this because of the shift in meaning that has occurred over the centuries since the original writings. Thus to have faith in something originally meant to have a strong trust in that, etc.

I in fact have an 'unshakable trust' in the Sun coming up tomorrow...
[..]

I don't equate spiritual enlightenment to emotions. Emotions are typically transient and have little lasting effect on a person's worldview. Spiritual experiences are typically transformative in one's behavior. ...

So just to clarify, I'm not meaning to criticize you personally here, just explaining why I'm not convinced by the whole god/spirituality thing.

I'm quite certain that the concept of spirituality is itself a mental gymnastic so justifying spiritual events using spirituality itself doesn't get us anywhere. It's equivalent to saying "The bible is historically accurate because the bible says it is." - Get me a series of contemporary historians circa 200AD who independently verify god himself fighting on battlefields (as the bible says he did) and I'd believe it.

I don't at all disagree that there is something that goes on in people's heads that feels like divine inspiration, I just don't see any reason to assume that epiphanies or Eureka-moments have any mystical/magical/supernatural or that they are a reliable pathway to truth. That last bit is especially important. All those cultures and religions do describe things like faith/spiritual enlightenment/divine inspiration/magical inflection and other mystic technobabble, so we can assume they're using the same mechanism, but they all arrive at almost universally mutually exclusive conclusions through its use. Which is the factoid that kills this entire concept of bestowed knowledge, or whatever you want to call it, for me.

When provided the same line of questioning (meaning of life/existence of gods/human existentialism/our place in the world/etc), using the exact same investigative mechanism, any given number of people can arrive at separate conclusions which are necessarily incongruent. E.g. that god is a personal relationship/that there are multiple/no gods/the trees are gods/the trees are demons/humans are animals/humans are holy beings/souls live in your stomach/souls get eaten by Slaanesh when you die/etc. Which to me sounds an awful lot like what happens when people use their imaginations to write stories.

Nevertheless! Even if I'm wrong and what you call spiritual enlightenment does utilize some sort of supernatural mechanism and does bestow supposedly unobtainable knowledge upon people - when it has such a poor degree of validity, doesn't itself provide substantiation for for the claims it leads people to making, and never seems to provide anything of practical value (when was the last time somebody was bestowed knowledge of how a steam engine works?) why should I believe it or need it in the first place?

This is a difficult topic to grasp, much less articulate. I know I've fallen short in my attempt to clearly explain my thoughts. I really appreciate your comments wherever you pop up because they are meaningful. I'm saddened to hear that you are currently experiencing health issues and wish you the very best in your recovery ~ YN

Aw thanks
I feel like I remember also responding to something else you wrote about spirits a while ago and I apparently have totally forgot about it?
Maybe when I'm in the throes of a delusion about being able to talk to alien insects through clocks I'll start believing spirits are the telecommunication mechanism?

 

[Blue]

Sol does not rise and set. Terra spins. Rising and setting are local illusions.

Humans have invented zillions of deities, all indistinguishable from local illusions. Choosing one to worship is arbitrary. Pick the theology you like best.

I distrust faith. Science flies us to the moon. Faith flies us into skyscrapers.

Pffffffft you really believe the UN's lies about the world being a globe?
How come people standing on the bottom don't fall off then hmm?

 

[yukonnights]

Sol does not rise and set. Terra spins. Rising and setting are local illusions.

Humans have invented zillions of deities, all indistinguishable from local illusions. Choosing one to worship is arbitrary. Pick the theology you like best.

I distrust faith. Science flies us to the moon. Faith flies us into skyscrapers.

Actually, you have faith (trust) in science. Nothing wrong with that and I share the same with you. But science will never answer all the questions, in my opinion. Further, science evolves from one error to the next and each false discovery is embraced as fact...until it's proved wrong by additional science. At one point the science was on a flat earth and folks believed (trusted) it with all their enthusiasm...until they didn't

The science vs faith dichotomy is a red herring since one has nothing to do with the other...they are complimentary when viewed without prejudice.

Nor does faith fly us into skyscrapers...fanatics do that and they come in many flavors. To conflate faith with religious fanaticism is not true discernment.

 

[yukonnights]

So just to clarify, I'm not meaning to criticize you personally here, just explaining why I'm not convinced by the whole god/spirituality thing.

I'm quite certain that the concept of spirituality is itself a mental gymnastic so justifying spiritual events using spirituality itself doesn't get us anywhere. It's equivalent to saying "The bible is historically accurate because the bible says it is." - Get me a series of contemporary historians circa 200AD who independently verify god himself fighting on battlefields (as the bible says he did) and I'd believe it.

I don't at all disagree that there is something that goes on in people's heads that feels like divine inspiration, I just don't see any reason to assume that epiphanies or Eureka-moments have any mystical/magical/supernatural or that they are a reliable pathway to truth. That last bit is especially important. All those cultures and religions do describe things like faith/spiritual enlightenment/divine inspiration/magical inflection and other mystic technobabble, so we can assume they're using the same mechanism, but they all arrive at almost universally mutually exclusive conclusions through its use. Which is the factoid that kills this entire concept of bestowed knowledge, or whatever you want to call it, for me.

When provided the same line of questioning (meaning of life/existence of gods/human existentialism/our place in the world/etc), using the exact same investigative mechanism, any given number of people can arrive at separate conclusions which are necessarily incongruent. E.g. that god is a personal relationship/that there are multiple/no gods/the trees are gods/the trees are demons/humans are animals/humans are holy beings/souls live in your stomach/souls get eaten by Slaanesh when you die/etc. Which to me sounds an awful lot like what happens when people use their imaginations to write stories.

Nevertheless! Even if I'm wrong and what you call spiritual enlightenment does utilize some sort of supernatural mechanism and does bestow supposedly unobtainable knowledge upon people - when it has such a poor degree of validity, doesn't itself provide substantiation for for the claims it leads people to making, and never seems to provide anything of practical value (when was the last time somebody was bestowed knowledge of how a steam engine works?) why should I believe it or need it in the first place?


Aw thanks
I feel like I remember also responding to something else you wrote about spirits a while ago and I apparently have totally forgot about it?
Maybe when I'm in the throes of a delusion about being able to talk to alien insects through clocks I'll start believing spirits are the telecommunication mechanism?

Blue, I don't take your points as anything personal. That would be silly. And I respect your views as being carefully considered. The one thing I would highlight though in regard to spirit vs religion is that there is a component of change in the person who has a true enlightenment experience. That change is a shift in the direction of love...which brings an inner peace in this crazy existence we all share. We all know that not everyone who claims Islam as their guide are truly enlightened by the core principles of love. The same is true of every religion. Religion has always been a big business...and it still is. But Love is not confined to one religion or to any religion at all. It is this Love that changes people from the inside outward...this is what I consider to be Spirit.

Be well. I'm just killing some down time here for awhile waiting for the weather to turn so I can get out and do some exploring. So if I don't respond back at some point it's because I'm in the mountains ~

 

[Hypoxia]

(1) Actually, you have faith (trust) in science. Nothing wrong with that and I share the same with you. (2) But science will never answer all the questions, in my opinion. (3) Further, science evolves from one error to the next and each false discovery is embraced as fact...until it's proved wrong by additional science. (4) At one point the science was on a flat earth and folks believed (trusted) it with all their enthusiasm...until they didn't

1. I do not have faith in science. I believe (not "believe in") results. Science and engineering have productively transformed the world. Many squabbling religions, not so much, not productively, but by holy wars and pogroms.

2. Unanswerable and meaningless questions can be asked. Q: How many angels can sit on the head of a pin? A: Measure the widths of a pinhead and an angel's ass, then divide B by A. Q: Why is (what is the motivation for) the blue sky? A: Because it wants to. (WHY? is about motivation. HOW? is about operation.)

3. A scientific theory is a usable, testable, predictive model supported by the preponderance of data. Untestable wild-ass notions ain't science. As more data is gathered, theories are revised or supplanted. That's how it works. Do deities alter our social and physical environment? Hmmm, that's rather hard to test. I.e. Theologies are worthless notions.

4. Greeks observed Terra's roundness way back when. "Flat Earth" was discredited long ago, along with demonic diseases, differential gravity, and a geocentric universe. Beliefs of those who don't study something aren't really significant, are they? Do you heed modern flat-earthers?

Reality is what's left when you stop believing.

 

[Blue]

*double post*

 

[Blue]

Blue, I don't take your points as anything personal. That would be silly. And I respect your views as being carefully considered. The one thing I would highlight though in regard to spirit vs religion is that there is a component of change in the person who has a true enlightenment experience. That change is a shift in the direction of love...which brings an inner peace in this crazy existence we all share. We all know that not everyone who claims Islam as their guide are truly enlightened by the core principles of love. The same is true of every religion. Religion has always been a big business...and it still is. But Love is not confined to one religion or to any religion at all. It is this Love that changes people from the inside outward...this is what I consider to be Spirit.

Be well. I'm just killing some down time here for awhile waiting for the weather to turn so I can get out and do some exploring. So if I don't respond back at some point it's because I'm in the mountains ~

I call it having and idea that becomes a life goal, everybody has them.
Why would you assign supernatural qualities to ideas, and what about people who can either find or experience the same feelings and outcomes without utilizing 'spirit'? Cause I've got a framework for interacting with the world and have made drastic alterations to my ideologies and life and I can assure you it was done entirely without 'love' or spiritually. That says to me that 'spirit' doesn't exist and the concept you're talking about is just an exaggeration of natural mechanisms in our heads.

 

[Blue]

Redirected from another thread

Right then. Islam.

So following on from how you explained your beliefs about your Islamic clothing: If that's how you interpret your religious clothes that's great, rock on, as far as I'm concerned. I'm not one of these people who thinks we should ban hijabs or anything. But your interpretation of Islamic clothing is certainly not applicable to a lot of areas around the Islamic world.

The rationale behind what I said is that I've personally heard from some Muslims (obviously not universally applicable to everybody who wears the coverings of course) that the scholarly justification for wearing - and sometimes forcing women to wear - burkas/hijabs/niqabs/etc is that women's bodies are a sexual distraction to men, and put the onus on women to cover themselves to prevent men from sinning by being 'tempted'. That's not a whacky interpretation that only exists on the fringes of Islam, in some places that's the dominant model, such as in Iran's or Saudi's political sphere, in both those countries women are still imprisoned for not wearing coverings in public. It's an ideology which absolves men of sexually harassing women and puts the onus on the victim to protect herself by covering up.

I feel like I should also note that even though I'm only a bit above a total layman on Islam and I've not done in-depth study of your doctrines or anything, my position on this comes from what I've heard ex-Muslims say on Islamic coverings in interviews and some Muslim and non Muslim arguments on the protests over mandatory hijab wearing in Iran. Not from rabidly anti-Islamic lunatics like Breitbart or something. It's reasonably founded on actual, real life, quite widespread interpretations of Islam.

This last bit is an aside point since it's just religious semantics that I personally don't care about but you might be interested in since you're a Muslim.
I looked for Islamic translations of 'Hijab' because you defined it as 'Modesty' which sounded a bit off to me and came back with a few other descriptions it is given in the Koran:
"obstacle" or "wall of separation" (7:46, 41:5, 42:52, 17:45), "curtain" (33:53), "hidden" (38:32), "hiding" (19:14), "prevented" or "denied access to God" (83:15), and used to describe "separation between those in heaven and those in hell" (7:46) .
From the admittedly very small amount of reading I just did in the past hour, "hijab" actually seems to originally have had the same meaning as "barrier" or "wall" in English.

 

[Hypoxia]

Right then. Islam.

I recall analyses that Xianity gained dynamic power by suffering the bloody Reformation and Counter Reformation, holy wars (with much slippage)(*) that eventually secularized holy power, while Islam has not undergone such a forced re-org. The rise of Xian and Muslim 'fundamentalist' movements (actually radical deviations) in the fairly recent past hint at more structural changes. The future remains messy.
_____

(*) Slippage: Protestant dukes hired Catholic mercs. Catholic prince-bishops hired Protestant mercs. Dismantling the enemy trumped piety. Lord {JHWH} favors whoever wins.

 

[ultramannc]

The Bible

The Bible,

A book built by MAN for MAN!

 

[FGB]

Stuff it.

Ahem.

That is Your job.

 

[FGB]

Sol does not rise and set. Terra spins. Rising and setting are local illusions.

Humans have invented zillions of deities, all indistinguishable from local illusions. Choosing one to worship is arbitrary. Pick the theology you like best.

I distrust faith. Science flies us to the moon. Faith flies us into skyscrapers.

Liar!
BUSTED!

You have to have trust and faith to get out of bed every morning and to put your feet on the floor and standing up having faith that you won't go flying up and hit the ceiling.

You believe and have faith in Gravity and a few hundred other things...

You seem to lack faith in a higher power or Religion you don't seem to realize the religion that you practice unthinkingly every day.

But to say you have no faith is simply not true.