Cousin topic = incest?!?

[Dingo_Triplesix]

Hi all,

maybe a dumb question, but I didn´t find a clear statement at previous threads:

I thought that "incest" only means sibling or parent/child relations, but not cousin or uncle/niece or aunt/nephew ones. Quite some of my stories are dealing with the latter, and those went into different categories outside "incest/Taboo".

The reason for my bewilderment: My latest story "Cousin Tutoring" was meant for "First Time", and I requested this category at the submission form (not only by chosing it from the list, but I wrote it explicitely at the message box). Nevertheless it came out in "Incest/Taboo". I reported this immediately, but it wasn´t changed. Apparently somebody thinks it is placed correctly.

Am I wrong? Then I would have to set up some settings differently in the future.

Thanks!
Dingo

 

[SimonDoom]

Incest is relations between family members, so your story was correctly categorized.

Since the taboo relating to cousins isn't as strong as closer relationships, some incest readers probably will not find it as erotic, but if you make the point that they are cousins then it's still going to be treated as an incest story.

At Literotica, incest is a "trump" category, meaning if the story has incest and other erotic elements, the incest usually trumps them and the story goes in incest, often even if you want to publish it elsewhere.

 

[oggbashan]

Those who follow the incest category seem to prefer closer relations than cousins such as Mom/Son and sister/brother.

 

[LexxRuthless]

Here, it goes even a step further (pun intended). Not only are step-siblings and step-parents in this category, but even in-laws. I discovered this to my chagrin when one of my stories that I submitted as and Anal entry was instead published under Incest / Taboo because there was sex between a man and his fiancée's mother. The story was downvoted repeatedly by readers who felt it shouldn't be in that category.

I requested to have the story moved, and was told essentially, "nope."

"There is sex between a woman and her daughter's fiance/husband. That will categorize this story as incest. If there are no family members involved in this story, kindly let us know and we will change the category. Thanks!"

 

[BiscuitHammer]

I have an ongoing series that I wanted to have in the Romance category, and for quite some time that's where it was. But then some Pakled had a temper tantrum because there are incest themes with a secondary couple in the story and it was shunted to I/T. I queried as to why, and was informed about the tantrum and it was duly moved by the powers that be.

I concur with what was said above- incest is one of those topics that 'overpowers', if you will, whatever other themes you may have going on. My story touches on more themes than you can shake a stick at, but the one that triggers people is incest, so that's where the story is languishing, even if I believe it belongs elsewhere.

As to defining 'incest', well, once again the definition is not only technical, but based on reader perception and opinion. Incest is not only defined by cosanguinity of certain degrees, but also by connubial ties, hence step-siblings. They're not related by blood, but it's taboo socially (and often legally), so it ends up in I/T.

If you make the relationship naughty, if you give the reader a tingle about it, it becomes I/T. They could be twelfth cousins who are different races, but if they fuck because they're cousins and it's a turn-on, the Incest clause will be invoked by SOMEBODY whose fee-fees you hurt.

A few categories work that way. You might have a white girl who happens to be in love with a black man with a giant dick. The more you mention how black and well-endowed he is,, if it feels like she has a thing for black men, the more it'll appear fetishized and end up in Interracial. May not have been your intent, since love is love, but literary representation is everything here.

I guess when composing your story, just think outside the bun and ponder who will be most turned on by elements you're inserting. That's usually a good indication of where it'll end up.

As for my story with the incestuous secondary couple, I'm gonna have it moved to Novels/Novellas, since it's an ongoing series. If it can't be in Romance, I want it somewhere I feel it belongs.

Hope my rambling and blathering helped somewhat. I haven't had my coffee yet.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Taboo. Sex with any kind of relative is Taboo. Sex with and in-law is Taboo.

 

[Candy_Kane54]

So, if a man and a woman fall in love and get married, introducing his widow mother to her widowed father and they then fall in love and get married, does that make it incest between the original couple? Asking for a friend ...

 

[TadOverdon]

You can't map story categories directly to anything in the way the real world works. This is all fantasy. It's like trying to fit mermaids into linnean taxonomy.

Someone pointed out here the other day that first cousin marriage is legal in over half the states in the United States, and they aren't the states that everyone jokes about. Places like New York, Massachusetts and so on. And then there are all those royal lineages in Europe. Oh, and Albert Einstein and his cuz, and so forth. So, in the real world while first cousin marriage may be considered icky, it's not like there's been a long-time, widespread prohibition or labeling of it as a taboo practice in the West.

But for purposes of fantasy categorization here, it goes in the same place with Dads 'n Daughters.

 

[SimonDoom]

But for purposes of fantasy categorization here, it goes in the same place with Dads 'n Daughters.

Which makes perfect sense. The whole point of categorization isn't to be analytically "correct," but to assist readers in finding the stories they want. If a reader clicks on a "cousin-cousin" story, it means, probably, that the subject is erotically interesting to them, so the way to assist them in finding that story is to put it in Incest/Taboo.

 

[TxRad]

And just to be clear, who has the power to put any story she wants in any category she wants?

My Valentines Day story last year was marked by me for BDSM. It ended up in Non-com. After thinking about it, I concurred that it fit the classic Non-com scenario.

 

[SimonDoom]

it fit the classic Non-com scenario.

A story about loving sergeants?

Sorry, Tx, I couldn't help myself.

 

[Comshaw]

I recently discovered that means ANY mention of incest at all in a story. I posted one (+22,000 word) story and requested it be in Erotic Couplings. It contains approximately a dozen sentences about a non-consensual relationship between two siblings that set the stage for interaction between two of the main characters. It was put in the Incest & Taboo category.

I figured that those looking for an I&T story wouldn't be receptive of a story like that. Apparently I was wrong. It is doing fairly well. So much for being able to figure out what a reader wants.

But it goes to show that, as said in an earlier post, any I&T and non-consent in a story trumps everything else.

Comshaw

 

[TadOverdon]

Which makes perfect sense. The whole point of categorization isn't to be analytically "correct," but to assist readers in finding the stories they want. If a reader clicks on a "cousin-cousin" story, it means, probably, that the subject is erotically interesting to them, so the way to assist them in finding that story is to put it in Incest/Taboo.

Well, sure. Categories aren't there to evaluate the content or quality of fiction on any metric other than jerk-off potential. They're a fast-food menu.

 

[Dingo_Triplesix]

Thanks to all for enlighting me. I learned two things:

First: At least seven or eight of my former stories are not correctly sorted, as they deal with cousins and uncles etc. Maybe the checks for the German texts are not that rigorous.

Second and more important: It´s a bad idea to write about cousins etc. at all. If they go into "I/T", they suck compared to the "real" stuff (sibs, daughters...). And if they are targeted elsewhere, the relationship is probably not the important aspect and can be changed without a loss in quality.

That´s okay. I will adapt.

 

[8letters]

Thanks to all for enlighting me. I learned two things:

First: At least seven or eight of my former stories are not correctly sorted, as they deal with cousins and uncles etc. Maybe the checks for the German texts are not that rigorous.

Second and more important: It´s a bad idea to write about cousins etc. at all. If they go into "I/T", they suck compared to the "real" stuff (sibs, daughters...). And if they are targeted elsewhere, the relationship is probably not the important aspect and can be changed without a loss in quality.

That´s okay. I will adapt.

They don't suck. They don't do as well in terms of a lot of metrics, but being in I/T still provides a bigger audience than a lot of other categories.

I published "Comforting My Little Sister" in March, 2017 and "My Cousin Shows Me Around Campus" five months later. Both stories have a 4.69 rating. The metrics for "Comforting My Little Sister" are much higher - 289K views vs 88K, 4.5K votes vs 1.2K, 642 favorites vs 145, 123 comments vs 33 - but I'd guess that "My Cousin Shows Me Around Campus" is doing a lot better than comparable-rated stories in other categories.

And my story about half-siblings, "My European Summer Vacation", has the most views of all of my stories.

 

[SimonDoom]

Second and more important: It´s a bad idea to write about cousins etc. at all. t.

It's not a bad idea if that's what you really want to write. You may have to adjust your expectations about reader responses, but that's not the only, or even more important, consideration.

 

[Comshaw]

Thanks to all for enlighting me. I learned two things:

First: At least seven or eight of my former stories are not correctly sorted, as they deal with cousins and uncles etc. Maybe the checks for the German texts are not that rigorous.

Second and more important: It´s a bad idea to write about cousins etc. at all. If they go into "I/T", they suck compared to the "real" stuff (sibs, daughters...). And if they are targeted elsewhere, the relationship is probably not the important aspect and can be changed without a loss in quality.

That´s okay. I will adapt.

I do not believe, and no one has ever produced evidence, that Laurel or Manu personally review every story posted on this website. With the sheer volume of stories being submitted, I believe it would be impossible for only two people to do so.

That said, I think they are employing either a program to initially review and vet the stories, or editors (paid or unpaid, I have no idea which) to do so. With the differing rejection levels, as well as the changing of requested posting categories at differing times for the same style of story, there are way too many subjective judgements being made for a program, so the second choice would be my guess.

It also does not support the idea that the same person is reviewing the stories. A person making a judgement usually has and follows a set of personal guidelines. The widely varying judgements made on stories doesn't show that kind of pattern.

In my opinion, we are dealing with multiple editors, (or reviewers if you will) each with their own vision of what constitutes what and basing the rejection or reclassification of a story on their own subjective judgement.

Just my opinion. If anyone can prove otherwise, please do.

Comshaw

 

[KeithD]

I believe there is only one submissions editor here, Laurel (I don't think Manu does anything with story content). I believe she uses programs to scan the submissions to point to questionable material and that these programs can generate rejections on what "might" be there that breach Literotica content and format requirements. I think she'll personally see any story where a comment has been put in the Notes box, but I don't think she gets directly involved in a rejection by program unless/until the story submitter contacts her directly, by comment in the Notes box in a refile or by direct PM. I do not think there's more than one human editor involved in the process.

 

[windar]

I do not believe, and no one has ever produced evidence, that Laurel or Manu personally review every story posted on this website. With the sheer volume of stories being submitted, I believe it would be impossible for only two people to do so.

That said, I think they are employing either a program to initially review and vet the stories, or editors (paid or unpaid, I have no idea which) to do so. With the differing rejection levels, as well as the changing of requested posting categories at differing times for the same style of story, there are way too many subjective judgements being made for a program, so the second choice would be my guess.

It also does not support the idea that the same person is reviewing the stories. A person making a judgement usually has and follows a set of personal guidelines. The widely varying judgements made on stories doesn't show that kind of pattern.

In my opinion, we are dealing with multiple editors, (or reviewers if you will) each with their own vision of what constitutes what and basing the rejection or reclassification of a story on their own subjective judgement.

Just my opinion. If anyone can prove otherwise, please do.

Comshaw

I believe there is only one submissions editor here, Laurel (I don't think Manu does anything with story content). I believe she uses programs to scan the submissions to point to questionable material and that these programs can generate rejections on what "might" be there that breach Literotica content and format requirements. I think she'll personally see any story where a comment has been put in the Notes box, but I don't think she gets directly involved in a rejection by program unless/until the story submitter contacts her directly, by comment in the Notes box in a refile or by direct PM. I do not think there's more than one human editor involved in the process.

I don't think anyone can PROVE either way since the way this site works is quite opaque, possibly deliberately so. I had chapter #15 of a 16 chapter story rejected, whereas as all the others were up in <48 hrs. The content was very similar between the rejected chapter and several of the others.

It could have been an inadvertent word choice that triggered a program. It could have been different editors. It could have been a single editor with different levels of fatigue, mood, what have you.

 

[KeithD]

I don't think anyone can PROVE either way since the way this site works is quite opaque, possibly deliberately so. I had chapter #15 of a 16 chapter story rejected, whereas as all the others were up in <48 hrs. The content was very similar between the rejected chapter and several of the others.

It could have been an inadvertent word choice that triggered a program. It could have been different editors. It could have been a single editor with different levels of fatigue, mood, what have you.

I think having been here for sixteen years (from the first account) and submitting at least one story a week throughout the time, I've gotten a pretty good grasp of how this works and who is working it.

 

[Comshaw]

I don't think anyone can PROVE either way since the way this site works is quite opaque, possibly deliberately so. I had chapter #15 of a 16 chapter story rejected, whereas as all the others were up in <48 hrs. The content was very similar between the rejected chapter and several of the others.

It could have been an inadvertent word choice that triggered a program. It could have been different editors. It could have been a single editor with different levels of fatigue, mood, what have you.

I agree, I don't think anyone can prove it either way, so everything we say is speculation. But some logical conclusions can be drawn from how things work. If there was only 1 person doing the reviewing, because of the volume of submissions they would have to do it for so many hours a day, 7 days a week they would have time for nothing else. Actually, in my estimation, it is an impossible task for one person.

As far as using a program, an affordable program (even a fuzzy logic program) can't be constructed to make a subjective call. Even if it were possible, the judgements made would be a lot closer to each other than the ones that have been made on stories here.

Programs need hard and fast rules to operate by, so we should see repeated and consistent judgements being made for like stories. That isn't what happens. The judgements are all over the place, from a very strict interpretation of the rules to more liberal ones. That is indicative of a human doing the judgements, and not just one person, but different people.

As you pointed out, no proof, just speculation, that's all it is, and the above is my stab at it.

Comshaw

 

[ElectricBlue]

But it goes to show that, as said in an earlier post, any I&T and non-consent in a story trumps everything else.

Not true. I have a story where sibling incest is a sub-theme, secondary or even tertiary to the main themes. I explained my reasoning as to my preferred category to Laurel, she agreed, and placed a "This story has incest themes" at its head. The category readers have been able to cope without any hissy fits.

 

[windar]

I agree, I don't think anyone can prove it either way, so everything we say is speculation. But some logical conclusions can be drawn from how things work. If there was only 1 person doing the reviewing, because of the volume of submissions they would have to do it for so many hours a day, 7 days a week they would have time for nothing else. Actually, in my estimation, it is an impossible task for one person.

As far as using a program, an affordable program (even a fuzzy logic program) can't be constructed to make a subjective call. Even if it were possible, the judgements made would be a lot closer to each other than the ones that have been made on stories here.

Programs need hard and fast rules to operate by, so we should see repeated and consistent judgements being made for like stories. That isn't what happens. The judgements are all over the place, from a very strict interpretation of the rules to more liberal ones. That is indicative of a human doing the judgements, and not just one person, but different people.

As you pointed out, no proof, just speculation, that's all it is, and the above is my stab at it.

Comshaw

AI can do a lot of things, including writing stories. Erotica would be quite amenable to AI, since there are certain things readers expect and those wouldn't be that hard for AI software to identify from higher scoring stories in each category and to reproduce.

Would it surprise me if there were already machine-generated stories here (if only done as an experiment)? Actually it would surprise me more if there weren't.

For screening, my guess is that the program looks for a selection of words and phrases. Probably most stories will not have them and will be automatically accepted. Those that do can be examined by a human (one or many) for a final analysis. And even there, you likely don't have to look at the whole thing, just a paragraph or two.

 

[Rustyoznail]

Thanks to all for enlighting me. I learned two things:

First: At least seven or eight of my former stories are not correctly sorted, as they deal with cousins and uncles etc. Maybe the checks for the German texts are not that rigorous.

Second and more important: It´s a bad idea to write about cousins etc. at all. If they go into "I/T", they suck compared to the "real" stuff (sibs, daughters...). And if they are targeted elsewhere, the relationship is probably not the important aspect and can be changed without a loss in quality.

That´s okay. I will adapt.

For what it's worth, my first story and two follow ups are about an uncle / aunt /niece. The first was published in 2019, and after some debate with Heyall, my editor, it went into I/T.

All three have been well received with no comments about the relationship.

 

[Comshaw]

Not true. I have a story where sibling incest is a sub-theme, secondary or even tertiary to the main themes. I explained my reasoning as to my preferred category to Laurel, she agreed, and placed a "This story has incest themes" at its head. The category readers have been able to cope without any hissy fits.

From the bolded part above, I take it your story was rejected, or placed in a category not requested the first time? Or did you explain it in the comments section with the original submission?

If it were #1 above, it supports my statement, that I&T trumps all. I never discounted the fact that Laurel wouldn't move it to where you asked it to be. She runs the place and has that power. She can pretty much do what ever she pleases.

Comshaw