Centering women in erotica and subjectivity (Pink Orchid adjacent topic)

[ofbuttons]

This post is in the spirit of the Pink Orchid Story Event, which is currently taking submissions. Instead of working on my own story for it, I found myself reading some of the entries from last year. Omenainen left a lot of constructive feedback, as did several others, and I found myself marking one of the trends that separated out some of the stories from those that met the brief and those that did not, or those where the story was fine but the sex strayed into being disinterested in the women's perspective.

There are a lot of things one could talk about in terms of how to write women-centric erotica, but I thought I might share my thoughts on subjectivity, or, my metaphor of choice: the camera of the story.

(This is only kind of related to 'male gaze' stuff, and I'm only mentioning it to get ahead of it. It's a can of worms, that phrase, more applicable to cinema history than literature, and I'd rather just talk about subjectivity than get into the weeds of a complex theory. But, you know, I'm not your dad.)

Essentially, what I mean by 'the camera' is a consistent sense of how we are viewing a story. When it comes to writing a good close third person story, there's a level of subjectivity that needs to be maintained. For instance, if your hero Darren is feeling cynical, it might be better to describe his feelings of cynicism, and avoid something more external like 'he raised an eyebrow'. If the person he is talking to is communicating cynicism, but we are following the story from Darren's perspective, then that other person we are not following can certainly raise an eyebrow, and we should not get a sense of their internal feelings of cynicism. This all goes double for a first person story. Subjectivity is a valuable tool, and if you are interested in writing something character-driven, you want to limit how much you zoom out as much as possible.

So, how does this relate to writing women in porn?

Based off my observation of reading a very wide spectrum of quality from Literotica in the past year and a half, along with some of the not-so-great Pink Orchid attempts, a problem I see is a camera problem, especially with regards to women. For the first half a story, the heroine may be followed closely -- we get a sense of her nervousness, her excitement, her insecurities. But then we get to fucking, and there is the sudden sense of the camera lifted away. She becomes an object. Her tits are jiggling like jello! The creampie is leaking down her thighs! She's screaming like a monkey in a zoo as his 9" cock slams into her!

Obviously, this is an exaggeration, but not much of one. The descriptive energy of the story has become disinterested in her internal world, and is now treating her as a subject to be watched. I imagine that this is because erotica writers (of any gender, really) might go into pornographer mode at this point, and feel that the way to write this kind of content is through this new objective gaze, in order to best stimulate the reader.

But all of those things can still be described. I'm not talking about graphic content or behaviour. She becomes self-conscious of her tits moving from the vigorousness of their shared motions. She can feel the leaking coolness on her skin at the backs of her thighs. Her throat felt raw from the sounds she was making as he fucked her.

Is this better? Yes, no, maybe. It's different.

You write the story you want to write, the way you want to write it, and there is a majority audience here that love the zoomed out, pornier perspective -- including me, sometimes, depending on my mood and if it's what I expect. However, if your goal is to write a more full feeling female character, or something that a female audience might enjoy, my thought is that you want to make sure your heroine is still in control of the camera in your story the whole time, and doesn't find herself its subject. When that shift happens, and I can see it clearly, I know it ejects me right out of the story.

Final note: I don't intend this to be a lecture, and is absolutely not prescriptive in any general way. I don't think people should change their styles for moral reasons or artistic reasons or any reason. This is a contemplation on one way to centre a female character in erotica, for anyone interested in doing so.

I also promise this is a dialogue. If you've got to the end and have thoughts, feelings, rebuttals, please share them! I am desperately trying to procrastinate and would appreciate the help.

 

[Euphony]

Final note: I don't intend this to be a lecture, and is absolutely not prescriptive in any general way. I don't think people should change their styles for moral reasons or artistic reasons or any reason. This is a contemplation on one way to centre a female character in erotica, for anyone interested in doing so.

To me it didn't read as lecture but I have a lens of being in love with storytelling craft so that was my entry point. (wide lens) If others have specific needs to meet or axes to grind, I can see them reading it differently even if the spirit seems nothing of the sort.

Hopefully most of us can agree the male centric/porn centric lens is the dominant in media and culture which is where much of us look to for examples and inspiration. It's just harder to find more nuanced examples than the standard and, speaking frankly, a lot of them come from specialists/experts in that particular lens craft which defeats me a bit in an emulation/learning capacity. Like if you felt you weren't being challenged by Michael Bay works so threw yourself into Werner Herzogs wildest, swinging too far the other direction (no, woman focus isn't truly such an auteur space but it feels representative examples that can be easily broken down by those trying to escape decades of societal "shaping" feel similarly rare)

Encouragement and thinking exercises like this (thread) feel a step in the right direction. Were I to ever be inspired to write the grand pornification gonzo whatchamacallit, I have plenty of examples here to draw from. Were I to wish to write its opposite, I feel there are not oceans but only little tide pools that host their own fascinating ecosystems but are conditionally unique to their inhabitants (in our case, the author)

I've yet found a viable way to clone those conditions and wish dearly more tide pools existed so I might find the one that clicks with my own habitations.

 

[Euphony]

The other ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ that hits sometimes are the false ideas that sex is mostly a physical space, men are the more physical beings, and so male lens just "works" better? more fluidly/congruently?

And male emotions/vulnerability during sex "sap" relatability, charisma, etc., to the point either female interest decreases due to some virility falsehood OR this opens the door for "emotion contagion" where if the man (who is stereotyped as being steady Eddy ready willing and able) has hesitation, it is even more (stereotypically) reasonable for the woman to fall down the doubt well.

We see *some* play with the norms but they usually involve more unusual scenarios (incest (foundational love = forgiveness), first time (failing can be endearing/add realism), micro-penis (so "cursed" hero/heroine HAS to find creative solutions), BBW (not "the ideal" so sacrifices made/choosiness curtailed, etc.) where the category/scenario does a lot of the lifting or depends on the audience being already sympathetic b/c of established "norms." But often too those become exponentially insulting to their characters when the author fails b/c it turns them into ugliness like fetish only objects, pity lightning rods, or any other negativity that "socially justifies" their lack of agency.

Bad sex, clumsy sex, negotiation sex (where you both look like doofuses but build a pair bond which leads you to get exponentially more in tune FAST) isn't fantasy friendly.

How willing you are as the author to deny societally informed escapism for realism and hope you don't inadvertently hit touchy spots the reader doesn't want to think about in their escapism pursuits (porn being especially fragile) is how much you put your creative heart on the table and set the probabilities of knives coming out for something outside the usual fare around here.

 

[ofbuttons]

To me it didn't read as lecture but I have a lens of being in love with storytelling craft so that was my entry point. (wide lens) If others have specific needs to meet or axes to grind, I can see them reading it differently even if the spirit seems nothing of the sort.

I appreciate the good faith and shared interest! A good nuts-and-bolts discussion is my aim for sure.

The other ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ that hits sometimes are the false ideas that sex is mostly a physical space, men are the more physical beings, and so male lens just "works" better? more fluidly/congruently?

And male emotions/vulnerability during sex "sap" relatability, charisma, etc., to the point either female interest decreases due to some virility falsehood OR this opens the door for "emotion contagion" where if the man (who is stereotyped as being steady Eddy ready willing and able) has hesitation, it is even more (stereotypically) reasonable for the woman to fall down the doubt well.

It's funny to me that sex is seen as so physical when we're all here to create written fantasies that can only be gratifying to the reader (however gratification might manifest) through imagination.

I've also observed this. Also like you said about the sheer oceans of certain kinds of content vs the tidepools, it's not that I won't read a story where emotional nuance is nullified and everyone kind of turns into porn robots -- it is pretty hard to avoid. But I love to find a story where emotional realism is represented at all and kept consistent throughout. Not just with the consistency of subjectivity in the heroine (or hero, if it's from a male perspective), but some sense of complex inner world of the other character too, and the ways those worlds will interact and affect each other.

Speaking to the topic of women-centric erotica, it means that the male (if it's a heterosexual story) should have feelings too, and I think it's desired in this kind of story. A woman getting railed by her dream man with the thickest cock and having a great time is fine, but I don't think that fantasy is actually the point of empowered (oh no, spicy word) woman-centric erotica. That could even skew into a male-driven power fantasy, and simplifies down the heroine's potentially more complex desires.

 

[NotWise]

There may be as many ways to write for or about women as there are women.

The "camera" of your choosing seems to be from a woman's perspective, which is certainly more available to female authors than it is to male authors. I don't think it's the only way to write stories that are intended to be women-centric or appealing to female readers. Male writers in particular might want to use different approaches.

My story from last year was written in first person from a man's point of view. I don't know if you consider it one of the failed examples or not. I think O was surprised that it seemed to work out.

The approach I used was to write a story about an independent woman facing personal challenges, and the decisions she made. I wanted the male character to be someone that a fair share of women might be interested in, and I wanted the sex to be long and slow--and maybe not as graphic as porn.

This year's story is in third person, but not omniscient, and from the man's point of view. The female character definitely fits the profile for a Pink Orchid story, but I'm not sure the story itself is that good of a fit. If I'm still in O's good graces then maybe she'll read it for me before I make the final decision to tag it with "pink orchid 2023."

 

[Euphony]

It's funny to me that sex is seen as so physical when we're all here to create written fantasies that can only be gratifying to the reader (however gratification might manifest) through imagination.

Agree but physical response is seen as consistent (even though it's rather easy to argue it is not) Removing the "am I normal?" hang-ups with sex by writing, say, the experience of eating popcorn, still feels the natural inclination for most would be the safety/consistency of physical sensations even though the emotional factors hold significant weight (it's really low grade food these days. "Captivity" purchase (ball park beer/hot dog/programs, etc.)
I just think it's more comfortable for the layperson who is the general writer here. I can generally figure out physical sensations in my body but am often overtaken by emotion. You project your own experience in your writing so I see where the stable footing of physicality comes from.

Speaking to the topic of women-centric erotica, it means that the male (if it's a heterosexual story) should have feelings too, and I think it's desired in this kind of story. A woman getting railed by her dream man with the thickest cock and having a great time is fine, but I don't think that fantasy is actually the point of empowered (oh no, spicy word) woman-centric erotica. That could even skew into a male-driven power fantasy, and simplifies down the heroine's potentially more complex desires.

Degree of difficulty. Many writers feel they have the gymnastic individual gold all wrapped up and don't see benefit of challenging themselves to go for more (for future competitions (stories)

And I still think there is a readership that prefers the complexity of real, two sided interpersonal relationships removed from their fantasies/fiction. (b/c that's the part of intimacy that confounds/bites us the most in RL and reminders can be anti-escapism)

So many more plates to keep spinning with both an emotionally intelligent and actualized male navigating the frictions of emotional/physical compromise that come with genuine intimacy.

And you have all the plausibility judgements to contend with too. (seen plenty of (assumed female) writers get told their male characters are "unicorns" when I see them as just emotionally intelligent adults.

And the reader isn't necessarily wrong b/c they are operating off their lived experience.

 

[ofbuttons]

There may be as many ways to write for or about women as there are women.

While I think this is logically true (in the same way that it applies for men writing men), I want to get away from this kind of statement. I think it has the danger of just closing off what could be a robust and helpful conversation about writing. When I'm talking about centreing female characters, I'm not really talking about "how to write a woman". I'm talking about how, mechanically, do we avoid falling into some of the pitfalls of writing female characters certain ways in certain stories, if we are interested in doing so. (No one has to be interested in doing so, but people partaking in the Pink Orchid event, at the very least, might be.)

I think there's a conversation that can be had, basically, that neither makes that statement nor makes big claims that all women want a specific set of rules, or all female characters should be written a certain way.

The "camera" of your choosing seems to be from a woman's perspective, which is certainly more available to female authors than it is to male authors. I don't think it's the only way to write stories that are intended to be women-centric or appealing to female readers. Male writers in particular might want to use different approaches.

It's from the main character's perspective. If your main character is a woman, and you're trying to ensure you are doing her justice whether because you just want to or you're writing for something like Pink Orchid, I think subjectivity is one way to do it to avoid making her an object to assumed male readership. I think this technique is available to any writer of any gender. I write mostly male main characters, myself, and favour close third person, and I happily delve into subjective writing, capturing his feelings and his experiences, without worrying that I am not myself a man.

I think male writers can achieve this with women characters easily. I think the only obstacles are inclination and willing, and maybe not being conscious of what literary techniques are at their disposal.

I will also note that I think female writers are capable of struggling with this too! I certainly have, and much of what I am talking about here is the result of practice, which I'm still doing. We are inundated with a certain kind of writing and it informs our own.

My story from last year was written in first person from a man's point of view. I don't know if you consider it one of the failed examples or not. I think O was surprised that it seemed to work out.

I'm intending to write from a female character's POV myself, but I don't believe a Pink Orchid (or generally woman-centric story) needs to be. I didn't read yours yet, but it's on my list -- it looks like it did really well.

 

[MelissaBaby]

There are only a few posts in this thread so far, but an awful lot has already been said, so it's hard to know just where to jump in.

I never think in terms of writing "porn." I don't say that to somehow elevate what I do above anyone else here, but because in my writing, the emotional content is always more important than the sexual. I've said before that I'd rather make my readers cry than make them come.

So, I am atypical in these parts, and I am okay with that. I don't have a huge following, but what I have is loyal and generally pretty thoughtful.

I strive for realism. (I have written a couple of ghost stories, but even then, I tried to maintain as much verisimilitude as possible.) My characters have had to stop in the middle of a sexual encounter because they couldn't find a condom. They’ve been interrupted by their crying baby.They've had menstrual cramps and erectile dysfunction. And yet, of 65 submissions, 64 have red H's, and I have won three Reader's Choice Awards. So, don't let anyone tell you that you can't succeed writing about sex as real people actually experience it.

Nearly everything I have written has been women centered. But there is one very big exception. I wrote a series titled Mary and Alvin. The concept was that I would write an "autobiography of a relationship" from its beginning to its end. It turned into a family epic, comprised of 36 chapters, totaling more than 340,000 words, in a narrative that covered about sixty years.

Originally, I intended to tell the story through the perspectives of the two main characters, coming as close as possible to giving them equal time. As things developed, there were other POV characters, but it was still, overall, the story of Mary and Alvin's life together. Pertinent to this discussion, it became a long workshop in the similarities and differences in male and female perspectives.

When I wrote from Mary's pov, I thought in terms of mood and emotional tone; while writing Alvin, it was more about actions. Not that Alvin did not have a rich emotional life, but he was less introspective. He'd feel as deeply as Mary did, but he wouldn't dwell on trying to understand those feelings. He'd deal with them by thinking about what to do in response to them.

That, to me, is the prime difference between writing female-centric vs. male-centric erotica. Women tend to think of sex as a mood, a state of being. Sex isn't just fucking, it's the smell of the rain and the softness of the mattress, the value of the light and the tone of the music. It's more than just something you do. If you don't understand that, I think you'll struggle to write erotic stories that center women successfully.

I haven't been able to write much lately, as I have just finished college and am looking for a job, but I hope I can get a story done for Pink Orchid. I was very pleased with the entry I wrote last year, a lesbian romance, Oyster River. I believe it was the highest rated entry. I'm very happy that we are doing it again this year, and I look forward to a lot of great stories.

 

[Euphony]

he was less introspective. He'd feel as deeply as Mary did, but he wouldn't dwell on trying to understand those feelings. He'd deal with them by thinking about what to do in response to them.

This feels like a critical distinction where authors often go astray.

It is about that balance of having a male with emotional intelligence in the higher percentiles of his gender (for his age group) but still having his mindset be more problem solving & solutions (even in emotional questions)

I can be thrown when an author has "emotional chunking" where the male is working through his emotions in an overview fashion, like how the entirety of a stew or recipe will come together rather than more narrowly focused on individual ingredient "problem solving."

And emotional branching, where there's contemplation of possibilities of other emotions or the negative space (emotions I'm NOT having being part of defining/supporting the emotional experience I AM) fails to ring true.

A problem solving/solutions mentality, testing singular emotions in a more binary than holistic way, escaping emotional discomfort as it piles on through physicality, even with small movements or nonsensical actions, and the feeling of regaining a modicum of control and/or grounding, are things I key in on.

 

[ofbuttons]

There are only a few posts in this thread so far, but an awful lot has already been said, so it's hard to know just where to jump in.

Lol, I set a bit of an essay tone, mea culpa, but glad you joined in.

Despite my interest in this topic and my interest in reading stories with the dimensions you've described of your own works, my own Lit contributions are written with 'erotica/porn' as a mindset, embracing some of the sillier conventions and characterisations, mostly because I'd never done it before and it was in line with what I'd been reading. In deciding to write for Pink Orchid, I found myself getting in a different headspace, desiring to extract from it more complexity in order to capture what I think it meant by 'women-centric erotica'. And as a result, I found myself writing a story in much the same mode as I would write something that isn't for Literotica.

Which is not to say that Literotica isn't a home for that content -- it obviously very much is, given your stories, and more authors I'm starting to discover.

That, to me, is the prime difference between writing female-centric vs. male-centric erotica. Women tend to think of sex as a mood, a state of being. Sex isn't just fucking, it's the smell of the rain and the softness of the mattress, the value of the light and the tone of the music. It's more than just something you do. If you don't understand that, I think you'll struggle to write erotic stories that center women successfully.

At the very least, I think it would be difficult to write an erotica story where this understanding is missing. There exist women who value sex in a very traditionally masculine way, and while it's less common, I wouldn't want to exclude it from the spectrum of female experience. However, it would be very tricky to avoid representing her as an object for pure gratification without being willing to engage with emotional depth and some attempt at realism, more along the lines of what you're describing.

The difference between knowing what you're doing and doing only what you know.

 

[stickygirl]

I've often found it difficult to avoid my own presumption of what readers expect at Lit instead of shutting the door to critics and writing for me. When I've done that, I've ended up with much better results. I'm wired to try to fit in with people's expectations - just how my brain works. I do focus on the senses, on emotions, but I sometimes lapse into a sex scene far earlier than the plot deserves.

For example I developed a special interest in women's soccer and wrote Goalposts I, which has a perfect arc and entirely female gaze. As I wrote it, all the jigsaw pieces fell into place and it felt like all I had to do was sit back and watch my hands write it. When this year's Pink Orchid came along I still had the enthusiasm for the subject matter but I realise now that I shouldn't have attempted a follow on, Goalposts II, or rather I should have accepted the story deserved a much longer arc time-wise. I see it as a learning experience and hopefully I can ignore the nagging "hurry up with the sex" demon sitting on my shoulder in future.

I don't read many stories at Lit, largely because of disappointment. As @ofbuttons illustrated in her initial post, too often a promising female gaze story switches into 'her tits swung like full grocery bags and his huge dick was running with her juices'. That's where I stop reading, because that's porn not erotica. It's boring and not worth my time. I wonder though how many other writers fall into the same sexpectation trap that I fall into = 'hurry up with the sex'?

As a note-to-self and deserving a post-it on my screen, I should commit to writing a non-erotic story and focus on a great story with a natural plot arc and characterisations. If in the course of writing there's sex, fine, but the sex should be an interlude not the focus... like Melissa does!

PS is 'arc' the correct word to use in this context?

 

[MelissaBaby]

At the very least, I think it would be difficult to write an erotica story where this understanding is missing. There exist women who value sex in a very traditionally masculine way, and while it's less common, I wouldn't want to exclude it from the spectrum of female experience. However, it would be very tricky to avoid representing her as an object for pure gratification without being willing to engage with emotional depth and some attempt at realism, more along the lines of what you're describing.

The difference between knowing what you're doing and doing only what you know.

I think that any time you give a character aspects that make them, for want of a better word, outliers from what readers would expect, there should be a good reason for it. If your character is a woman who behaves differently from what is generally considered "normal", or has attitudes or emotional responses that it would seem unusual to the reader, that is fine. But if you are just throwing in quirks for the sake of variety or shock value, you'll only confuse and misdirect readers.

There is definitely a place for female characters who have what are usually considered male attributes. As a reader, though, I am going to want to know why she is different from most characters I've read, probably from most women I know.

By this, I do not mean it has to be justified in the plot. It can be subtext that you include to make a particular point.

The internet is full of "BBW (Big Beautiful Women)" porn. It's perfectly reasonable that an author might want to write to appeal to that audience. But if all they do is write a standard sex story, but with a woman who weighs 250 pounds, she's just presented as an object. If your BBW story is built around the emotional struggles of a larger woman seeking sexual gratification in a society that idealizes thinness, that would be woman centered. In fact, that's a story I'd want to read.

 

[MelissaBaby]

I've often found it difficult to avoid my own presumption of what readers expect at Lit instead of shutting the door to critics and writing for me. When I've done that, I've ended up with much better results. I'm wired to try to fit in with people's expectations - just how my brain works. I do focus on the senses, on emotions, but I sometimes lapse into a sex scene far earlier than the plot deserves.

For example I developed a special interest in women's soccer and wrote Goalposts I, which has a perfect arc and entirely female gaze. As I wrote it, all the jigsaw pieces fell into place and it felt like all I had to do was sit back and watch my hands write it. When this year's Pink Orchid came along I still had the enthusiasm for the subject matter but I realise now that I shouldn't have attempted a follow on, Goalposts II, or rather I should have accepted the story deserved a much longer arc time-wise. I see it as a learning experience and hopefully I can ignore the nagging "hurry up with the sex" demon sitting on my shoulder in future.

I don't read many stories at Lit, largely because of disappointment. As @ofbuttons illustrated in her initial post, too often a promising female gaze story switches into 'her tits swung like full grocery bags and his huge dick was running with her juices'. That's where I stop reading, because that's porn not erotica. It's boring and not worth my time. I wonder though how many other writers fall into the same sexpectation trap that I fall into = 'hurry up with the sex'?

As a note-to-self and deserving a post-it on my screen, I should commit to writing a non-erotic story and focus on a great story with a natural plot arc and characterisations. If in the course of writing there's sex, fine, but the sex should be an interlude not the focus... like Melissa does!

PS is 'arc' the correct word to use in this context?

Arc works just fine.

Sometimes I look at the list of categories and I see Anal at the top of the page, and I think, "Why is anal a category? Like, what do you have to say about butt sex that hasn't been said a million times since ancient fricking Greece?"

Okay, I get it, for some people, that's their main turn on, but I just can't wrap my head around starting a story thinking, "Ooh, you know what's hot? Taking it up the ass. I'll write a story about that!" My brain won't work that way.

I used to be a stripper. Naturally, that provides me with a lot of raw material to work from, and I wrote what is probably my favorite of my own stories, The Gold Dollar Girls, based on my experiences, and those of women I knew. Obviously, that's a story that is placed in a sexually charged milieu, but it's not about that. It's about a woman trying to establish healthy relationships while working in a stigmatized field. Another who is victimized by a social services system that is biased against sex workers. A woman who willingly submits to sexual exploitation and pays a heavy price. Most of all, it's about female friendship, about two women who are looked down on by society for the way they pay their rent, finding strength and support through sisterhood.

And along they way, they have sex. Because, of course they do. The sex in the story is important. But it's less important than the late night chats in the diner. For me, the emotional high point in the story isn't about dancing or fucking, it's about sharing a slice of pie.

You mentioned doing things the way I do. I thank you very much for that kind compliment. Well, that's how my brain works.

 

[yowser]

The 'camera' metaphor is an interesting way to approach this. Besides just the POV, who is taking the shot, there are all manner of other aspects of representing a story. Lots of good photos can come from fairly flimsy cameras, if the taker has a good eye and doesn't try to get too fancy.

Usually the best photos come from someone with some imagination, an ability to place themselves properly, pay attention to 'lighting' and who has a strong sense of their subject. I think the best Lit stories (and the best PO entries) are similar, and involve attention to detail and authentic, relatable emotions.

 

[yibala]

Essentially, what I mean by 'the camera' is a consistent sense of how we are viewing a story. When it comes to writing a good close third person story, there's a level of subjectivity that needs to be maintained. For instance, if your hero Darren is feeling cynical, it might be better to describe his feelings of cynicism, and avoid something more external like 'he raised an eyebrow'. If the person he is talking to is communicating cynicism, but we are following the story from Darren's perspective, then that other person we are not following can certainly raise an eyebrow, and we should not get a sense of their internal feelings of cynicism. This all goes double for a first person story. Subjectivity is a valuable tool, and if you are interested in writing something character-driven, you want to limit how much you zoom out as much as possible.

I've noticed this a lot as well, and usually consider it a problem of POV consistency. I think you've framed it well. A lot of writers aspire towards (and a lot of readers prefer) cinematic scenes, in which the reader can visualize everything, including - if the POV character is woman - her tits jiggling like jello as the 9" cock slams into her. But if they are also trying to write a close POV that includes the protagonist's thoughts, feelings, and sensations - perhaps the goal of a writer seeking to emphasize female agency - the effect is inconsistent and distances the reader from her experience. The narrative spends a lot of time looking AT her, instead of through her eyes, from her senses and thoughts.

I generally prefer to both write and read the latter kind of story. I love description, but I'd rather the camera be the protagonist herself and the way she senses the world around her.

I would think it is possible to write female agency from a POV other than that of the female in question. Then the cinematic writer/reader could have their cake and eat it too.

-Yib
My stories

 

[ofbuttons]

Selfishly, I've found everyone's replies to this thread to be very encouraging in my endeavors, and have returned to my Pink Orchid draft. Thank you for jumping in, all.

I see it as a learning experience and hopefully I can ignore the nagging "hurry up with the sex" demon sitting on my shoulder in future.

This has been my struggle too. As much as I can ramble here about my intentions and preferences and hopes, I feel a certain amount of self-imposed pressure to conform to the conventions of the website. In my current story, there's a lot of time dedicated to conversation and set pieces and feelings and not a lot to graphic sex, and even though I know there will be plenty of that too, I'm going to be self-conscious the whole time at how much page real estate I've spent on 'extra' stuff.

But, well, an event like this is a good excuse to try something new and push myself. Just need to exorcise the demons, first.

The 'camera' metaphor is an interesting way to approach this. Besides just the POV, who is taking the shot, there are all manner of other aspects of representing a story. Lots of good photos can come from fairly flimsy cameras, if the taker has a good eye and doesn't try to get too fancy.

I like this extension of the metaphor. You'd want the images being conjured to be rendered beautifully (in a PO story, or any story where you're avoiding objectification of any gender), instead of just invasively crude and abstract. Kind of like cheap porn, where the lens just pushes right up in there for the money shot, and people are reduced to parts and fluids.

The translation into literature is also, I think, about use of language and what kind of image you are trying to put in your reader's mind, and there's just ways of doing it where it comes across as disrespectful and comedic or not.

I would think it is possible to write female agency from a POV other than that of the female in question. Then the cinematic writer/reader could have their cake and eat it too.

I agree. I don't know if it would be easier or harder for a writer (of any gender) unused to writing women to pull it off from this angle, but I think it's a way to do it, and something I try to do anyway in my stories where I am writing men protags.

 

[MelissaBaby]

I would think it is possible to write female agency from a POV other than that of the female in question. Then the cinematic writer/reader could have their cake and eat it too.

-Yib
My stories

It's not just possible, but we do it all the time, don't we? A great many stories include female supporting characters who exhibit agency. We just don't give them the same scrutiny.

 

[unholyintentions]

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread, and to ofbuttons for starting it with such an insightful take on women-centric erotica. I have read some of your works and reread some of mine through that lens and had the epiphany that I, too, rely a bit too often on the outward zoom when the (physical part of the) sex begins. I need to retrain my eye to make it less of a zoom out and more of a panning camera with the right tilts and perfectly harmonic cuts.

I never think in terms of writing "porn." I don't say that to somehow elevate what I do above anyone else here, but because in my writing, the emotional content is always more important than the sexual. I've said before that I'd rather make my readers cry than make them come.

And this is what I appreciate most about your stories! I generally avoid longer format erotica, but with your stories I always know that there will be emotional and psychological depth to the characters that builds beautifully into erotic scenes. Your lesbian stories are amazing -- I'm glad Oyster River did well in the contest.

That, to me, is the prime difference between writing female-centric vs. male-centric erotica. Women tend to think of sex as a mood, a state of being. Sex isn't just fucking, it's the smell of the rain and the softness of the mattress, the value of the light and the tone of the music. It's more than just something you do. If you don't understand that, I think you'll struggle to write erotic stories that center women successfully.

All this, all this.

Selfishly, I've found everyone's replies to this thread to be very encouraging in my endeavors, and have returned to my Pink Orchid draft. Thank you for jumping in, all.

Genuinely, I can't wait to read it!

This has been my struggle too. As much as I can ramble here about my intentions and preferences and hopes, I feel a certain amount of self-imposed pressure to conform to the conventions of the website.

I think an 'eyes on the prize' mindset is productive in this kind of exercise, or at least it has been for me. I know every time I write a women-centric story I will get a critical comment from someone who was not the intended audience (once on Literotica so far, but primarily on another platform). It's almost relieving when the comment hits, after I long anticipated it, and then we can all move on. I hope you'll remember that there are many of us who do appreciate your women-centric stories, even if we don't make up the biggest demographic of consumers on the site.

 

[Bramblethorn]

The internet is full of "BBW (Big Beautiful Women)" porn. It's perfectly reasonable that an author might want to write to appeal to that audience. But if all they do is write a standard sex story, but with a woman who weighs 250 pounds, she's just presented as an object. If your BBW story is built around the emotional struggles of a larger woman seeking sexual gratification in a society that idealizes thinness, that would be woman centered. In fact, that's a story I'd want to read.

In particular, I think a lot of authors trip up by not realising that describing a 250-pound woman as attractive (with or without fetishising her size) isn't the same as describing her as a person.

 

[stickygirl]

In particular, I think a lot of authors trip up by not realising that describing a 250-pound woman as attractive (with or without fetishising her size) isn't the same as describing her as a person.

Agreed - it requires a deft touch by the author. Too often the pornweb represents people rolling in their fetish, callously oblivious to objectifying fuller figures, or any other group of people that fit their kink. OTOH those individuals play on the kink and revel in the attention. I often wonder if that's because they imagine this is the only way they'll get attention and feel desired or if they're into the kink as well?

I was thinking about trans women, since it's close to my heart. I've long since decided that trans women divide into two groups ( yes, groups have fuzzy edges ). One group want to be accepted as women in a holistic sense, while the others see themselves as a sex object, waggling their junk for kicks and followers. But there again, teenage girls often play the 'tart' - enjoying the effect they have on men, until they get bored of it or worse.

If in doubt, write for the person not the fetish. The chasers will get off on the story in any case and the author's conscience can be clear - they acted with respect. Just because the person is 250 pounds and enjoys their figure shouldn't encourage objectifying comments any more than a woman dressing to show a bit of cleavage or leg.

I still find it impossible to resolve that contradiction and end up sitting on my hands. As a western society we do not police women for wearing short skirts but we cry foul when men make comment. Of course there's a big difference between a guy raising their eyebrows and reacting with a mild mannered "Wow!" and a wolf whistle or lewd comment. I'd welcome advise on this!

 

[ofbuttons]

I still find it impossible to resolve that contradiction and end up sitting on my hands. As a western society we do not police women for wearing short skirts but we cry foul when men make comment. Of course there's a big difference between a guy raising their eyebrows and reacting with a mild mannered "Wow!" and a wolf whistle or lewd comment. I'd welcome advise on this!

I tend to think this conflict gets overblown by men feeling persecuted and overreacting to people identifying certain behaviours as harassment, and crafting 'slippery slope'/straw men arguments -- if slapping a woman's butt is sexual harassment, any physical contact can be considered sexual harassment! That sort of thing. I understand the anxiety/uncertainty, though, and there's nothing wrong when it stems from wanting to be respectful. My issue is when people (typically dudes) start complaining about it, lol.

As a woman who appreciates all the genders, I can see an attractive stranger walk by me, one who has dressed in a manner that makes them look good on purpose, and simply not harass them, you know? And by 'harass', I mostly mean make my attraction to them their problem and purposefully create a moment that's uncomfortable and unwanted. I can look, admire, comment to a friend, I can behave in a genuine way that doesn't cross any lines. I can also refrain from yelling at them from across the road about how good their ass looks.

As for advice, I think it's mostly just about paying attention to context. Like your example about trans women, where some are just existing in their truth and others are calling attention to their sex appeal via their bodies -- both groups deserve respect, and to be engaged with with consent in the appropriate contexts. On a date or in the bedroom, in one case, or on their TikTok comments section, in the other. Neither are asking for unwanted attention, and both are entitled to look for wanted attention in the contexts of their choice.

I've wandered off the subject of writing erotica, probably, but hey. It's an interesting topic.

 

[stickygirl]

I've wandered off the subject of writing erotica, probably, but hey. It's an interesting topic.

Thanks - that makes sense to me too.... context, appropriate etc

In the context of writing, has anyone written a slap-down, where one of their characters acted inappropriately? There's maybe a danger then of sounding preachy.

I think I'm guilty(?) of leading by example. In Goalposts, the new girlfriend shows the reader the right way to do things to avoid causing offence, by admitting they feel out of their depth, saying something like 'Show me what to do...' which could just as easily be transferred to a guy asking how to rub a woman's clit.
That feeds back to giving the woman agency "Show me what to do" is too often taken by men as a sign of weakness, like asking for road directions.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I was thinking about trans women, since it's close to my heart. I've long since decided that trans women divide into two groups ( yes, groups have fuzzy edges ). One group want to be accepted as women in a holistic sense, while the others see themselves as a sex object, waggling their junk for kicks and followers.

Though what people want and what they do aren't always the same thing. I'd guess there are quite a few trans women who'd rather be passing as cis, but who are waggling their junk for the chasers for lack of better job options.

 

[MelissaBaby]

In particular, I think a lot of authors trip up by not realising that describing a 250-pound woman as attractive (with or without fetishising her size) isn't the same as describing her as a person.

In the entirety of my two Ranger Ramona stories (Hopefully a third coming this year), I never described Ramona's appearance. In the first paragraph, I wrote, "Most little girls grew up dreaming about wearing their wedding gowns. All she had ever wanted was to one day don the gray and green uniform of a Maine Forest Ranger."

Everything the reader needs to know about her is in those two sentences. The 100k words that follow are all extrapolations from them. To be a ranger, she needs to be physically fit, that is a given, but beyond that, what she looks like is irrelevant.

On the other hand, I could have described her height, her measurement, her hair color and style, her full lips and deep blue eyes, yada yada yada. And you know what would have happened? The reader would most likely still have imagined a character who doesn't look anything like the one I did. So what's the point?

Or I could have written some ridiculously buxom bimbo who did nothing but romp through the woods, blowing hikers and fucking lumberjacks. But I thought a tough capable young woman trying to achieve success in a male dominated field while remaining true to her self would be more interesting.

 

[alohadave]

In the entirety of my two Ranger Ramona stories (Hopefully a third coming this year), I never described Ramona's appearance. In the first paragraph, I wrote, "Most little girls grew up dreaming about wearing their wedding gowns. All she had ever wanted was to one day don the gray and green uniform of a Maine Forest Ranger."

Everything the reader needs to know about her is in those two sentences. The 100k words that follow are all extrapolations from them. To be a ranger, she needs to be physically fit, that is a given, but beyond that, what she looks like is irrelevant.

On the other hand, I could have described her height, her measurement, her hair color and style, her full lips and deep blue eyes, yada yada yada. And you know what would have happened? The reader would most likely still have imagined a character who doesn't look anything like the one I did. So what's the point?

Or I could have written some ridiculously buxom bimbo who did nothing but romp through the woods, blowing hikers and fucking lumberjacks. But I thought a tough capable young woman trying to achieve success in a male dominated field while remaining true to her self would be more interesting.

I really enjoyed the story. There was a lot of truthiness to it that came through.

It's the kind of story I'd like to be able to write for myself.