Can we talk about gender identity? Not transgender experience, just gender identity.

[EmilyMiller]

I'm really glad this thread got woken up, because since I posted it I've had another idea. Way back in early October I made a post asking Why is rape given special status as a crime? I got dumped on royally for being insensitive enough to even have the question (one person declared that I was a sociopath), but now I'm wondering if my bewilderment comes from having the same part of my brain sort of de-activated that is de-activated to eliminate visual imagery and (maybe) a strong sense of gender identity. Possible??

I’m not going to relitigate this. But it’s easy to see how the POV you espoused was deeply offensive to any survivor of sexual assault, and more broadly to other people.

My brain doesn’t work like most people’s so I’m willing to entertain that this might have been the problem.

I try to apply a filter after I’ve written something. Could this be hurtful to some people? It’s an effort to do, but I think it’s a useful final filter.

Emily

 

[EmilyMiller]

* Is a black person racist when the use the N-word?

Not because of that. Same as I’m not being misogynistic self-describing as a slut. But of course some black people are racist. Just one more way in which we are all the same.

* Is a woman who wants to be a stay at home mom while her husband goes out and earns the household money a misogynist?

No, of course not. Unless she says her choice should be imposed on all women.

* I AG31 sexist for being a woman who doesn’t feel that rape should be a different degree or classification of violence?

Not sexist, but deeply insensitive. And a surprising stance for a woman to take. Unless they have zero experience of sexual assault and have never known anyone who has suffered it.

Emily

 

[AG31]

I’m not going to relitigate this. But it’s easy to see how the POV you espoused was deeply offensive to any survivor of sexual assault, and more broadly to other people.

My brain doesn’t work like most people’s so I’m willing to entertain that this might have been the problem.

I try to apply a filter after I’ve written something. Could this be hurtful to some people? It’s an effort to do, but I think it’s a useful final filter.

Emily

So what is one to do if being oneself is "hurtful" to someone?

 

[EmilyMiller]

So what is one to do if being oneself is "hurtful" to someone?

Not post it.

Emily

 

[gordo12]

When I was in my twenties I discovered that not all people have the same experience when it comes to mental imagery.

1 - Does what I said above make sense to you?

2 - Do you have a sense for your own gender apart from just inhabiting a particular physical body?

3 - If "yes," to #2, are you able to describe what that mental experience is?

4 - If "yes," to #2, does this involve wanting to participate in the behavior society expects of a gender? In other words, if society didn't have different expectations/norms for the sexes, would your sense of your own gender identity be as strong?

1 Yes, it makes sense. As far as mental imagery goes, I have always been able to visualize things, sometimes to an extreme. All my stories play through my head like a video. Dialogue, imagery and emotion, at least as far as a male is capable of emotion. There, I envy women because they can bring emotional touches to the stories that I can't.
2 & 3/ Unabashedly male. I have always enjoyed male activities and can't imagine myself doing the things girls did when I was growing up. I love women, and as far as sexual activities go, it's been a straight path for me. I've never felt the slightest physical attraction to another male. Somebody asked what my reaction would be if I woke up in a female body and I have to say that might be fun. I've always wondered about women's sexuality and the things they truly feel. I also think they got the better deal with body parts. Things don't go dead after 2-3 sessions. But I wouldn't want it to be permanent.
4 I don't govern myself by society's expectations of male behaviour. Those expectations are driven by the fact that that's how males behave. Cart in front of the horse there with that question.
I grew up the in late 50's and early 60's. Rural area, I never had a clue about things like gay or racism. They simply didn't exist in my world. I know our vocabulary had words like homo, fag, faggot and other phrases we used freely to insult each other, but seriously, I didn't have any idea what they meant. Or what they were based on. I now suspect the other kids didn't either.
Logically, I understand all these different identities exist, but I'm totally unable to understand what goes on in their heads and what they think. After reading through the threads, it's apparent to me that we have a lot of different people here who are immersed in their different worlds. They are well-spoken and well-thought-out.

The voice in my head never shuts up. I’m just grateful there is only the one.

As for visualization, when I write I see everything like I am watching a movie. I was surprised to learn that not everyone does.

When I wrote Fido, I used to wake up at 4 am hysterically laughing at the scenes I was visualizing in my sleep. I couldn't turn them off. If I fell asleep again, there they were playing all over again. But it's amazingly hard to get the touch, sense and feel of everything happening. All my stories are like videos before I get them written. So much is lost in the translation into words. As Melissa said, it's like watching a movie. LOL, I need to learn to type faster!!!

 

[vagrantx]

While I don't agree with the use of the N-word by anyone, no blacks aren't necessarily racist when they use the word. Some blacks are racist, though, in that they hate white people.

Maybe it's a slip of the tongue, maybe it's environmental, I don't know what your situation thus far has been, but: I find your linguistical quirks interesting. You don't condone the n-word, by anyone, but simultaneously you use different terminology for "blacks" and "white people". Why not "black people", or conversely, "whites"?

I don't really have the english vocabulary to put my thoughts into words here, but, saying "blacks" and not "black people" feels like it's assigning more weight to that part of their identity, at least when it's not consistent as if it would be if you'd said "whites".

Backtracking to the use of the n-word by black people, I don't see any issues with it. I'm lao, and gay. I call myself a chink dyke and I do it with a smile. It gives me a sense of agency over my own identity.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Which all leads to the conclusion that if you want to understand gender identity, don't ask people who've never needed to question it themselves.

I don't claim to understand gender, even my own, but I do know it matters.

Your post has sparked two conflicting opinions in my brain

Btw, this is quite an interesting thread. Things are actually being discussed here

 

[AwkwardlySet]

There are some great questions being asked here and I wonder if science will ever truly be allowed to give some decisive answers. It just seems that every era imposes its own axioms and limitations that don't allow science to research freely, without prejudice.

 

[MillieDynamite]

I have used black people and whites in the past. There is no weight in how I use the terms in my thought process. I'm black, and my family isn't. It's complicated. I only use the N-word in my writing but in real life. I don't like it when black folks call other black people N. To me, the word is just disgusting. I don't like some other words as well and never use them outside of writing. Words are just words. In themselves, they have no weight beyond what we give them. I would never call myself a nigger, a porch monkey, a pet monkey, or another racist shit, and I don't tolerate it when others do. I'm none of those things. I'm just Millie.

Maybe it's a slip of the tongue, maybe it's environmental, I don't know what your situation thus far has been, but: I find your linguistical quirks interesting. You don't condone the n-word, by anyone, but simultaneously you use different terminology for "blacks" and "white people". Why not "black people", or conversely, "whites"?

I don't really have the english vocabulary to put my thoughts into words here, but, saying "blacks" and not "black people" feels like it's assigning more weight to that part of their identity, at least when it's not consistent as if it would be if you'd said "whites".

Backtracking to the use of the n-word by black people, I don't see any issues with it. I'm lao, and gay. I call myself a chink dyke and I do it with a smile. It gives me a sense of agency over my own identity.

 

[vagrantx]

I'm none of those things. I'm just Millie.

Thanks Millie, for speaking openly about it! I read more into it than there was. As a non-native I tend to analyze casual language more than natives do, as I have to translate it all in my head.

I snuck a peek at your profile and saw you're from the US, and I understand that the whole discussion has an entire different meaning to you. I've lived in laos, and sweden, and neither has had any true history of systemic racism towards me and mine, just the odd groups of morons shouting loudly, so I get why you have a more visceral reaction to it than I do.

 

[MillieDynamite]

An AH dweller in the past loved to push my buttons. He insulted me, and I reacted and received a caution, so I blocked him. I don't know why responding to a blatant insult and racially charged comment is worse than the original comment. Since then, I've been more moderated here by myself to avoid any censure.

Thanks Millie, for speaking openly about it! I read more into it than there was. As a non-native I tend to analyze casual language more than natives do, as I have to translate it all in my head.

I snuck a peek at your profile and saw you're from the US, and I understand that the whole discussion has an entire different meaning to you. I've lived in laos, and sweden, and neither has had any true history of systemic racism towards me and mine, just the odd groups of morons shouting loudly, so I get why you have a more visceral reaction to it than I do.

 

[SamBomb]

I'm non binary. I grew up a guy but always felt like shit and never felt like I belonged and rather awful about everything male. Pandemic hit, time to think and re-evaluate. I realized I'm not a guy, nor a woman, and viola I'm way happier and healthier.

 

[AlinaX]

There are some great questions being asked here and I wonder if science will ever truly be allowed to give some decisive answers. It just seems that every era imposes its own axioms and limitations that don't allow science to research freely, without prejudice.

Neuroscience can map out the human brain and say a lot about who we are by external observation, but the brain is a fantastically complex organ and external measurements cannot be precise. At best, the science is able to support subjective experience, but it is dangerous to go beyond that and say the science is more correct than the subjective experience.

I actually think it's wonderful to see so much discussion about identity and orientation in recent years because our understanding of human nature is expanding as a result.

 

[AlexBailey]

Not post it.

Emily

Isn’t it a valuable question though? AG31 brought it up seeking an understanding from others while doing some self analysis. She got a lot of feedback that would not have happened if she hadn’t broached the subject. People being offended was part of that.


I was raised in a staunch Catholic household in my teens. In my experience, fear of tabling difficult questions reenforces prejudice and assumptions. Open and respectful discussion is clearest path to understanding, no?

 

[DoctorSmith8]

When I was in my twenties I discovered that not all people have the same experience when it comes to mental imagery. In fact, some people (like me) have almost no ability to make mental visual images. I now realize that was why I felt baffled when tips in the Sunday supplement for remembering names by associating a picture with them just didn't work for me. I thought I had a "picture" in my mind. But what I really had was a non-visual idea. It was quite an Aha! experience when I learned how people can vary be in this regard.

Last week I had a similar experience. Ever since the idea of transitioning gender became a topic of public discussion, I've been puzzled. I just couldn't conjure up what it meant to "feel" a different identity than one's body had. I didn't think much about it, but now I believe this may be another instance of how people's brains can vary. The Aha! happened when I read this statement by @secondlullaby, 'apparently attachment to gender is something a lot of us are lacking. When I say "I don't understand" it, I mean I literally do not understand.' Oh! So maybe "attachment to gender" is like the ability to make mental visual images. Some people have it and some don't. And there are lots of points in between.

Anyway, it set me wondering. Here are some of my questions. Although I'm interested in everyone's responses, I'm particularly interested in hearing from people who have never experienced gender dysphoria.

Edit: Great answers so far. Thanks to all. This is probably a little late, but I should have clarified that I'm not including sexual orientation under the heading of "gender identity." For my purposes a person who has a mental identity of male can be oriented toward men or women or both. Likewise for a person who has a mental identity of female.

1 - Does what I said above make sense to you?

2 - Do you have a sense for your own gender apart from just inhabiting a particular physical body?

3 - If "yes," to #2, are you able to describe what that mental experience is?

4 - If "yes," to #2, does this involve wanting to participate in the behavior society expects of a gender? In other words, if society didn't have different expectations/norms for the sexes, would your sense of your own gender identity be as strong?

I remember around the 7th grade I began to notice girls. The pretty ones seemed to gain instant popularity. I found myself wishing I had been born a girl so I could be popular like that. But then I had my first orgasm at the hand of my best friend during a sleepover. My attitude instantly changed. Now being a boy was remarkable!

 

[AlexBailey]

Backtracking to the use of the n-word by black people, I don't see any issues with it. I'm lao, and gay. I call myself a chink dyke and I do it with a smile. It gives me a sense of agency over my own identity.

That’s how I feel about using the word ‘queer’. It was a serious insult when I was a kid, I can still hear the derision in my alter-boy step brother’s voice when he called me that.

I love the term now. We took it back.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Isn’t it a valuable question though? AG31 brought it up seeking an understanding from others while doing some self analysis. She got a lot of feedback that would not have happened if she hadn’t broached the subject. People being offended was part of that.


I was raised in a staunch Catholic household in my teens. In my experience, fear of tabling difficult questions reenforces prejudice and assumptions. Open and respectful discussion is clearest path to understanding, no?

I can make any number of questions which might be obviously offensive to - oh I don’t know - maybe cancer survivors.

Inquiry doesn’t abrogate the need for care.

Emily

 

[AlexBailey]

I can make any number of questions which might be obviously offensive to - oh I don’t know - maybe cancer survivors.

Inquiry doesn’t abrogate the need for care.

Emily

So keep all sensitive issues under the rug?

 

[EmilyMiller]

So keep all sensitive issues under the rug?

Straw-man argument. I have no interest in continuing this way. I’m not on the high school debate team anymore.

Say whatever you want. I’ve made my point clearly and its stands on its own merits. No need to add anything more.

Emily

 

[Bramblethorn]

Maybe it's a slip of the tongue, maybe it's environmental, I don't know what your situation thus far has been, but: I find your linguistical quirks interesting. You don't condone the n-word, by anyone, but simultaneously you use different terminology for "blacks" and "white people". Why not "black people", or conversely, "whites"?

I don't really have the english vocabulary to put my thoughts into words here, but, saying "blacks" and not "black people" feels like it's assigning more weight to that part of their identity, at least when it's not consistent as if it would be if you'd said "whites".

I'm more familiar with it in the medical context than the racial one, but I think the terminology for what you're discussing here is "person-centered" language ("black people") vs. non-person-centered ("blacks") where the adjective has become a noun.

It's one of those nuanced things that can carry very different connotations according to who's talking and who they're talking to/about. As a sweeping generalisation, "person-centered" is more likely to be important/helpful in situations where the speaker's attitudes might be in doubt, less important when they can be inferred from context. So, knowing Millie is Black herself (albeit raised by White parents), I can probably assume she thinks of Black people as people, and in situations where everybody's happy to make those assumptions, "blacks" is faster to write and say.

OTOH, if people who only know me as Australian and White were to hear me talking about "blacks" they might have more cause to wonder, so I'd take the extra syllables.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Isn’t it a valuable question though? AG31 brought it up seeking an understanding from others while doing some self analysis. She got a lot of feedback that would not have happened if she hadn’t broached the subject. People being offended was part of that.

In the specific context we're discussing here, I think it might've been possible to get that feedback with less offense by asking a little differently.

Unfortunately, people often use the structure of a question ("why do folk do/believe X?") as a way to deliver a statement ("people who do/believe X are WRONG"). It happens enough that "just asking questions" has become a catchphrase for a certain kind of disruptive behaviour. In academia we have a running joke about people who hijack seminar question time as an excuse to deliver their own opinions thinly disguised as questions.

I think AG31 genuinely was trying to understand why other people thought differently on the topic but for people who didn't know her, it was easy for that to come across as an opinion in disguise.

When asking such questions about topics that are likely to be sensitive for many listeners, it's particularly worth going out of one's way to establish that this really is a "help me understand X" question rather than a veiled "people who disagree with me are wrong" and to acknowledge that it might be emotionally charged. I hate having to do that - communication would be so much simpler if we could just expect everything to be taken the way we intended it - but sometimes it saves a lot of friction.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Queer was totally reclaimed. The only people I ever see get mad about people using it seem to be transphobes.

I do occasionally encounter older gay men who have bad memories of it being used as a slur against them, and still feel uncomfortable with being described as "queer". But with that one exception, I'd concur.

 

[AG31]

Not post it.

Emily

So I was lying in bed thinking about this and it dawned on me that you probably think I was suggesting that rape victims don't feel especially victimized or that they shouldn't or something. On the contrary. I do believe they feel the way they say they feel. I don't think I'd feel that way and I want to understand what that feeling is.

 

[AG31]

In the specific context we're discussing here, I think it might've been possible to get that feedback with less offense by asking a little differently.

Unfortunately, people often use the structure of a question ("why do folk do/believe X?") as a way to deliver a statement ("people who do/believe X are WRONG"). It happens enough that "just asking questions" has become a catchphrase for a certain kind of disruptive behaviour. In academia we have a running joke about people who hijack seminar question time as an excuse to deliver their own opinions thinly disguised as questions.

I think AG31 genuinely was trying to understand why other people thought differently on the topic but for people who didn't know her, it was easy for that to come across as an opinion in disguise.

When asking such questions about topics that are likely to be sensitive for many listeners, it's particularly worth going out of one's way to establish that this really is a "help me understand X" question rather than a veiled "people who disagree with me are wrong" and to acknowledge that it might be emotionally charged. I hate having to do that - communication would be so much simpler if we could just expect everything to be taken the way we intended it - but sometimes it saves a lot of friction.

Excellent analysis. You said it better than I did here. Thanks!!

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Neuroscience can map out the human brain and say a lot about who we are by external observation, but the brain is a fantastically complex organ and external measurements cannot be precise. At best, the science is able to support subjective experience, but it is dangerous to go beyond that and say the science is more correct than the subjective experience.

I actually think it's wonderful to see so much discussion about identity and orientation in recent years because our understanding of human nature is expanding as a result.

I was referring to the political limitations that every era imposes. I am sure that, given free rein, science would provide some more conclusive and in-depth answers, both from the point of view of neuroscience, and psychology and sociology.