So can any of you talk with me about "impersonality?"

[AG31]

When I re-entered the world of erotica in early 2021 I was surprised and confused by the prevalence of relationships in the S & M world. I fairly quickly learned that BDSM itself had morphed into a heavily relational term, involving community, trust, negotiations, contracts,, mistress/master, "my domme," "my dom.". That's why I now use S & M instead. My erotic sensibility, in the world of fantasy, had always been S & M, since pre-latency, but my erotica sensibility was given form by The Story of O. It's very title emphasizes impersonality.

I spent a lot of mental effort trying to describe what it was I found appealing in erotica when it comes to this spectrum. I still haven't found a single term better than "impersonality." But that's clunky and imprecise.

I do find a lot of GM stories appealing because impersonality is much more common in that genre. In my stories the person done-to is always male, but the sex of the do-er is almost irrelevant. So my MCs don't desire men. It's just the impersonality quality that's important.

Have any of you mused about the quality of impersonality that is often found in GM stories? Can you describe it better than I have? Can you recommend a non-GM author who portrays this quality?

 

[SimonDoom]

I think you've hit on something interesting. Many people find what you call impersonality an erotically appealing concept. I think it has something to do with the surrender of one's self to a sexual experience. It's why some people find annoying the insistence of some others that every erotic experience has to be described in a sensitive, personal, correct way. Some people don't like their erotica that way.

My 750 word story California Dogging is impersonal in this way.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Any relationship that is based on instant gratification and not a full-blown relationship is, by definition, impersonal. So any stories using whores, that is, sex for cash, should be impersonal. BDSM of the past, pre-me, was less about relationships and more about gratification. I'm pretty sure a lot of (So-called) DOMs these days are still about that. It's an excuse to abuse a sub for their own pleasure with no actual concern for their partner's fulfillment. It is a common complaint I've seen from subs of both sexes about the community. There are some great stories to be written about the so-called DOMS.

What is sexier than someone in sexual and physical jeopardy? Someone who is unwillingly used but still enjoys the abuse and only has a faint hope of surviving.

 

[nice90sguy]

My story "annihilation", written almost 20 years ago after my first real-life experience with a domme, describes what I think is the core of it, pretty well. It says it a lot better than I could do with a post.

My GM (Genetically Male) friends and family members are all basically guys, who have the typical male attitude to sex, which requires little in the way of commitment or pair-bonding. So they fuck around a lot -- until some of them reach a certain stage of their lives.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

Sounds like a really good echo of Jong’s Fear of Flying.

No one is trying to prove anything or get anything out of anyone. The zipless fuck is the purest thing there is. And it is rarer than the unicorn… When you came together, zippers fell away like rose petals, underwear blew off in one breath like dandelion fluff. For the true ultimate zipless A-1 fuck, it was necessary that you never got to know the man very well.

 

[Rob_Royale]

When I re-entered the world of erotica in early 2021 I was surprised and confused by the prevalence of relationships in the S & M world. I fairly quickly learned that BDSM itself had morphed into a heavily relational term, involving community, trust, negotiations, contracts,, mistress/master, "my domme," "my dom.".

Hmm. It's been overwhelmingly obvious based on responses to my stories, that readers love a happy ending. People who end up in a nurturing, loving relationship after all is said and done. So it's no surprise if writers pick up on that, and more impersonal stories get less common. Especially in BDSM.

I'd think that dogging, glory hole, gangbang, swinging, hotwife, and sex with strangers stories would contain the impersonality you're looking for.

 

[MillieDynamite]

And you'll get racked over the coals from the INCELS, or trolls, or such when you write them. This type of story has its place, but try and post to places other than Loving Wives.

I'd think that dogging, glory hole, gangbang, swinging, hotwife, and sex with strangers stories would contain the impersonality you're looking for.

 

[AchtungNight]

Any relationship that is based on instant gratification and not a full-blown relationship is, by definition, impersonal. So any stories using whores, that is, sex for cash, should be impersonal.

What is sexier than someone in sexual and physical jeopardy? Someone who is unwillingly used but still enjoys the abuse and only has a faint hope of surviving.

And what’s sexier than that? To me, it’s a personal connection, determination not to put up with shit, and a shameless fervent desire to exchange pleasure following mutual respect. Yes, you’re sex positive, but it’s not a bad thing. You don’t call your partner “stock” or “slave”, you honor them and accept the love they offer you and vice versa.

Not the most common attitude in porn, I know. But it is one I look for and try to put into my stories while condemning its opposite. There are few bigger turn-offs for me than exploitation, abuse, and denial of choice. And to condemn sex as just that or celebrate it… people with this attitude imho have serious mental issues.

 

[SimonDoom]

There are few bigger turn-offs for me than exploitation, abuse, and denial of choice. And to condemn sex as just that or celebrate it… people with this attitude imho have serious mental issues.

Isn't this a straw man? Is there anybody in this forum that you've seen EVER take this position? That sex is nothing more than exploitation or abuse, or that exploitation and abuse are the only ways sex can be celebrated? I can't think of anyone EVER taking this position in this forum.

On the other hand, some people find things like exploitation to be erotic, in their place--usually in the imagination. To accuse such people as having mental issues (I'm not sure that's what you're really doing) is to engage in unjustified speculation and kink-shaming. You have no idea, in reality, what their mental health is, and nobody else does either.

The fact is that millions and millions of perfectly healthy people fantasize about sex that is impersonal and completely detached from personal relationships. As TarnishedPenny cites from Erica Jong, the Zipless Fuck. It's the concept of the enjoyment of an act separate and apart from the baggage of a relationship. A person can have fun playing guitar or climbing a mountain or building a model ship without a relationship. Why not sex, too?

 

[AchtungNight]

I was referring to the mass media, not specifically this forum. I apologize for not making that clear. Yes, the attitude does crop up in Lit from time to time- mostly from condemning trolls in the Incest or LW categories. But I agree it is not common or enjoyable.

I recently read the Erica Jong novel that coined the “zipless fuck” phrase. The FMC has her affair, does not enjoy it, and then has to deal with a violent obsessive stalker and settle for her boring but supportive husband. Total opposite of the sort of thing that turns me on. Perhaps this colored my perspective.

 

[MillieDynamite]

I'm not saying anything, but it makes for good storytelling.

And what’s sexier than that? To me, it’s a personal connection, determination not to put up with shit, and a shameless fervent desire to exchange pleasure following mutual respect. Yes, you’re sex positive, but it’s not a bad thing. You don’t call your partner “stock” or “slave”, you honor them and accept the love they offer you and vice versa.

Not the most common attitude in porn, I know. But it is one I look for and try to put into my stories while condemning its opposite. There are few bigger turn-offs for me than exploitation, abuse, and denial of choice. And to condemn sex as just that or celebrate it… people with this attitude imho have serious mental issues.

 

[AG31]

I think you've hit on something interesting. Many people find what you call impersonality an erotically appealing concept. I think it has something to do with the surrender of one's self to a sexual experience. It's why some people find annoying the insistence of some others that every erotic experience has to be described in a sensitive, personal, correct way. Some people don't like their erotica that way.

My 750 word story California Dogging is impersonal in this way.

I find your whole reply perfectly stated, but I'm going to add this phrase to my list of Aha Words and Phrases, "the surrender of one's self to a sexual experience."

I went right over the story side and read California Dogging. I think it was perfectly done!

 

[AG31]

My story "annihilation", written almost 20 years ago after my first real-life experience with a domme, describes what I think is the core of it, pretty well. It says it a lot better than I could do with a post.

My GM (Genetically Male) friends and family members are all basically guys, who have the typical male attitude to sex, which requires little in the way of commitment or pair-bonding. So they fuck around a lot -- until some of them reach a certain stage of their lives.

I meant GM as "gay male."

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Have any of you mused about the quality of impersonality that is often found in GM stories? Can you describe it better than I have?

Detached or detachment?

 

[SimonDoom]

I find your whole reply perfectly stated, but I'm going to add this phrase to my list of Aha Words and Phrases, "the surrender of one's self to a sexual experience."

I went right over the story side and read California Dogging. I think it was perfectly done!

Thank you. And thanks for the comment you left on the story.

Interestingly, but unsurprisingly, the comment immediately before yours to that story is "Just another slut," by Anonymous.

Some people find the concept of sex detached from any moral relationship or obligation highly erotic, at least as a fantasy if not something actually to do, and others find it so abhorrent that they can't even imagine it or accept it as a fantasy.

 

[AG31]

My story "annihilation", written almost 20 years ago after my first real-life experience with a domme, describes what I think is the core of it, pretty well. It says it a lot better than I could do with a post.

I went right over the Lit side and read it, all the time thinking, "This sounds very familiar!" Indeed, I had read it, given it 5 stars and posted a comment. It still packed a punch. Thanks. I wish I knew how I found it the first time... Have you mentioned it here in the forums recently?

 

[AG31]

Detached or detachment?

Yes, those work. Thanks.

 

[TheRedChamber]

In the abstract, I'd argue that 'depth' in erotica can come from two main areas - 'the creation/development of a relationship' or alternatively 'the adoption of a new and desired persona' (and the new experiences that come with it - or maybe these are just the two areas that seem most natural to me.

I'm interested in the idea of persona in erotica - the moment when someone decided or gives themselves permission to become someone else (using going from boring and unfulfilled to sexually adventurous and happy). In what you're describing, and from reading your stories before you have a pretty extrem version of S&M, it seems almost like you want to put your characters in what I would call the 'null persona' - the sublimation of personality and handing over all sexual autonomy to someone else.

I'd argue that in a good story you still need characters and relationships, but the reaching of this 'null persona' can still be the purpose of the story.

Am I overcomplicating things?

 

[AchtungNight]

The "null persona" is what I hate. The sublimation of personality, the surrender of self, reduction of people to "servants" or "studs"... this is the opposite of sexy for me. You have to want the adventure and be allowed to achieve it. This can be selfish, yes, but it doesn't have to be. It can be a deserved earned reward from a partner, a helpful higher power, or yourself if no one else. And if you can't have that self-determination... it just makes me squick.

 

[gunhilltrain]

When I re-entered the world of erotica in early 2021 I was surprised and confused by the prevalence of relationships in the S & M world. I fairly quickly learned that BDSM itself had morphed into a heavily relational term, involving community, trust, negotiations, contracts,, mistress/master, "my domme," "my dom.". That's why I now use S & M instead. My erotic sensibility, in the world of fantasy, had always been S & M, since pre-latency, but my erotica sensibility was given form by The Story of O. It's very title emphasizes impersonality.

I spent a lot of mental effort trying to describe what it was I found appealing in erotica when it comes to this spectrum. I still haven't found a single term better than "impersonality." But that's clunky and imprecise.

I do find a lot of GM stories appealing because impersonality is much more common in that genre. In my stories the person done-to is always male, but the sex of the do-er is almost irrelevant. So my MCs don't desire men. It's just the impersonality quality that's important.

Have any of you mused about the quality of impersonality that is often found in GM stories? Can you describe it better than I have? Can you recommend a non-GM author who portrays this quality?

Impersonal means "not influenced by, showing, or involving personal feelings." You seem to be saying that is a good thing, but only for erotic stories?

Since you started by mentioning BSDM I've got some stuff for you that might be relevant. The various stories about Nora that are told by her in first person are very personal. The whole point of them, I think, is to examine the character of this smart and articulate but socially and sexually insecure young woman and how handles or hides those aspects of herself. There is another one of her tales that is pending right now.

Nora Works As a Domintrix

Freshman Hooker

Nora Turns a Trick

Also look at the four-part series that begins with: College Hooking Memories Ch. 01

All of the details in these stories are based on the reality of New York in the 1970's.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Have any of you mused about the quality of impersonality that is often found in GM stories? Can you describe it better than I have? Can you recommend a non-GM author who portrays this quality?

Well, you know for sure it's not me! As you know, I'm complete antithesis of that notion - that's utterly non-erotic for me .

 

[nice90sguy]

I meant GM as "gay male."

I know you did; I'm afraid I was being facetious -- and making the point that Gay Male is still, well, genetically male

 

[Bramblethorn]

I'm interested in the idea of persona in erotica - the moment when someone decided or gives themselves permission to become someone else (using going from boring and unfulfilled to sexually adventurous and happy). In what you're describing, and from reading your stories before you have a pretty extrem version of S&M, it seems almost like you want to put your characters in what I would call the 'null persona' - the sublimation of personality and handing over all sexual autonomy to someone else.

See also Milgram's "agentic state" (although note also the recent question marks over some of his research).

 

[TarnishedPenny]

The "null persona" is what I hate. The sublimation of personality, the surrender of self, reduction of people to "servants" or "studs"... this is the opposite of sexy for me. You have to want the adventure and be allowed to achieve it. This can be selfish, yes, but it doesn't have to be. It can be a deserved earned reward from a partner, a helpful higher power, or yourself if no one else. And if you can't have that self-determination... it just makes me squick.

Gotcha, understood and I fully agree, but... (There always has to be a 'but', right?)

I think the key thing is 'self-determination'. To be forced into anything is generally wrong; to be forced into something sexual is abhorrent, but if one makes a conscious choice to do something, then the critical box on the list can indeed be checked.

Using the case of BDSM as an example (generally-speaking and not referring to any specific examples). IRL BDSM includes - should include - consent. One guideline is 'Safe, Sane and Consensual'. Another is RACK - 'Risk-Aware Consensual Kink'. A third is PRICK - 'Personal Responsibility, Informed, Consensual Kink'. Note what they all have in common. The people involved talk about it first, establish boundaries and safewords and so forth. In that context, both parties slip into what is essentially role-playing, a game. Yes, it can involve total surrender of self, being used as a purely sexual object - but always within the context of a game.

To me, that makes all the difference.

 

[AG31]

it seems almost like you want to put your characters in what I would call the 'null persona' - the sublimation of personality and handing over all sexual autonomy to someone else.

This seems spot on except for the "someone else" aspect. I want the do-er to be as anonymous as possible. It's the feeling of "sublimation of personality" (thanks for that!) that's at the core. Religious experience is a close analogy in the world of my brain.