About characters saying 'no'

[tenyari]

Simply the adage that no means no - what we tell our kids so that they hopefully don't end up on rape charges. Everything I've read is 'no but...' We write erotica, so it's a given it will include sex. I don't expect authors here to beat the drum for social education, just surprised it hasn't been raised.

I've never used 'no actually eventually means yes' in any of my stories. I've never understood that line of thinking.

There is the game of seduction which can involve a lot of "I'm not sure" and "maybe not yet" or even "but we're just friends" and "I'm not comfortable with the relationship going there now".
- But are these an actual no? I see them as conditionals in a game of back and forth as the border is mapped out. I've had people who've pursued me, and people I've pursued, but it was always a game of tentative maybes and conditional negatives that either eventually moved the maybe to a yes or the negative to a no (or vice versa).

Once a solid 'no', a very clear negative, clear rejection, appears, the wall has come up and that's where the border stands. With the note that relationships evolve over time - but for that 'chapter' the end has come.

I've done breakups on my writing, I've done rejections, and I've probably got some nos in there. But I don't think I've ever done the 'no, but yes'.

 

[Carnevil9]

A character saying "no" in a Literotica story is basically a Chekhov's Gun. Which is to mean, if they say "no" early in the story, it is only because they will ultimately say "yes" later in the story. If the "no" was to be a permanent no, the question should never have been brought up in the first place, because it serves no purpose to the narrative.

It's like the "reluctant hero" trope, where the hero at first refuses to go on the quest/mission/adventure, but ultimately does.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

A character saying "no" in a Literotica story is basically a Chekhov's Gun. Which is to mean, if they say "no" early in the story, it is only because they will ultimately say "yes" later in the story. If the "no" was to be a permanent no, the question should never have been brought up in the first place, because it serves no purpose to the narrative.

I agree the 'no' should have a purpose, but it doesn't need to turn to a yes - it can simply steer the narrative.

To take a simple Lit example which I've used a few times:
Woman says no to PIV sex with new man, for whatever reason - period pain, avoiding pregnancy, agreement with existing partner.
Man attempts to hide disappointment, but doesn't run away nor become an asshole.
Woman suggests anal.
Happy endings all round.

Woman meeting new man and immediately wanting it up the tradesmen's entrance? Not nearly as convincing.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Perhaps, but if Victor, having theorised that electricity could bring a body to life, had acknowledged that such an act was too immoral and abandoned his work, would we still have such a massively influential work of fiction to inspire us 200 years later?

ETA: Indeed, the obstacle overcome in Frankenstein is no less than a Law of Nature.

That certainly is an obstacle that Victor overcomes - but very early in the story. (Around the beginning of chapter 5 of 24.) "Bringing a body to life" is more of the premise than the meat of the story; most of it's concerned with his subsequent, rather egregious failures.

 

[MillieDynamite]

There is a different kind of no in writing, as in No more, not one moment longer. But writing about family abuse at Lit. is an extremely difficult proposition. How do you show something of abuse leading to the, "No more," being voiced? Everything should be happy. The woman grows to like the rape, she gets off, and she wants more. The beatings aren't that bad, it's just playing at abuse. I like posting stories here. However, at times, I'd like the freedom you have in commercialized stories. Mainstream stories can get away with anything, as long as it is a plot device and not the main part of the story. Lolita can't be published here. For the Sake of Child by Stevie Tuner would never make past review likewise, What We Saw by Aaron Hartzler. The list is a long and winding road of all kinds of banned things here.

I know this is a titillation site. Therefore, serious examinations of such taboos are verboten.

Just my humble opinion.

 

[KeithD]

But writing about family abuse at Lit. is an extremely difficult proposition. How do you show something of abuse leading to the, "No more," being voiced?

I don't at Literotica. Abusive (as in going beyond the receiver's tolerance or arousal from it) crosses the line away from the erotic for me, so I don't write or read that here. (I have no problem with others writing or reading it if the submissions editor accepts it.)

 

[MillieDynamite]

Yeah, I know, I'd like to do a bit more serious stuff here. But I guess this isn't the site to be serious. These days, I don't have much time to write for myself anyway.

 

[SimonDoom]

Yeah, I know, I'd like to do a bit more serious stuff here. But I guess this isn't the site to be serious. These days, I don't have much time to write for myself anyway.

I wish people would stop saying things like this about this site. It's not true. This is a big site with a gazillion readers, and there's a place for almost every type of story (as long as Laurel allows it). There are plenty of serious stories that do extremely well here. The evidence for that is all around.

You are not obligated to write for the mean or mode reader. Write the stories you want to write and if they're decent it's likely there will some audience for them here.

 

[MillieDynamite]

That isn't what I'm saying. And what I'm trying to say doesn't come easy to me. I'm the product of parental abuse by my birth father, and my birth mother's ignoring, disbelieving, and refusal to admit what happened drove me to a life on the streets. I've been exploring loving incest (which I can't accept as real), which has been difficult for me to write. Still, I think the story I have here about it holds up well. But I'd like to explore this kind of abuse with a place to publish it. I can't publish it mainstream. I'm a niche writer of erotica there. Incest is forbidden without having a major publisher, one of the top ten. There are few sites where I can publish it in the erotic world, and this tale wouldn't be an erotic story. Even so, it violates rules here and on other sites like here. I can write other more serious works, but this one, my personal story, has nowhere to be published where it can find an audience.

I'm not complaining about here, but about limitations everywhere for us, lesser know authors with tales we think are important. My chronicle is therapeutic for me and may have a limited appeal. My father's former publisher turned it down—too dark, disturbing, absolutely too much everything, even with a happy ending. I have long suspected pops quit them because they rejected my novel.

I'm sorry if you thought this was about the rules or not being able to do something out of the norm here. It isn't. It's frustrating with the system, Amazon, Smashwords, and the whole world if your last name is King, Patterson, Kuntz, or such.

Both Written in Blood and The Case of the Rich Man's Wife have been received well. And they are out of the norm for the site.

 

[MillieDynamite]

"It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I wearing Milkbone underwear," Norm Cheers. Sometimes, I feel the same way. Yes, the trauma is there after all these years. Even with my adoptive family close to me, always there when I need or want them, I still have terrible dreams, flashbacks, and thoughts of the other family. When I visited my birth mother several years ago, we had a ruined Thanksgiving because she kept insisting I forgive my father and visit his grave. What I wanted to put on his grave wouldn't pass for possies. (yeah, I stole that line too).

 

[Carnevil9]

I agree the 'no' should have a purpose, but it doesn't need to turn to a yes - it can simply steer the narrative.

To take a simple Lit example which I've used a few times:
Woman says no to PIV sex with new man, for whatever reason - period pain, avoiding pregnancy, agreement with existing partner.
Man attempts to hide disappointment, but doesn't run away nor become an asshole.
Woman suggests anal.
Happy endings all round.

Woman meeting new man and immediately wanting it up the tradesmen's entrance? Not nearly as convincing.

Fair enough! I can't argue with that.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Like forgiveness is something they can force? That's not forgiveness that's just repeating empty words, and some people simply don't deserve even a fake level of forgiveness.

I'm very limited contact with my family. In my case the main contributor of trauma was my sister's boyfriend but it was a bit of an open secret that no one will acknowledge or admit to having knowledge of, though they won't deny it either. (For reference of their knowledge: He paid my mom when I was a teenager to fly me out of state to stay with him for a summer. If I hadn't ended up in the hospital before the flight, I wouldn't have had a say in the matter because the line in her morals moved based on how much cash she could get out of it and how much plausible deniability she could work into the situation for herself for feigned disbelief if she got caught. Her planned story for that cash infusion for three months largely alone with me was that she was holding on to the money he was paying me to babysit his kids for the summer so I didn't spend it all instead of saving it for college. His kids were staying with his mom but I was going to be staying with him. Funny how that doesn't quite track, but tracks just enough to be believable to someone who wants to believe a mother wouldn't do that to her daughter. She berated me for missing that flight all summer, being sure to work in how fat I was given I got hospitalized for starving myself. [5' 9" and around 120lbs-ish.])

The last time I went to visit, my parents kinda sealed the "obligatory phone call for birthdays, father's day and mother's day" level of contact for me. That visit involved my mother forcing me to go to the burial of my sister's boyfriend's ashes where I was expected to be civil and say something nice about him.

I said nothing, because saying, "The kindest thing he ever did was huff a can of knock-off pledge," with a big ol' smile on my face would just traumatize his kids and I didn't want that. My husband ended up getting me back into the car before the "faux praise machine" got around to me, but not before my aunt went on an awful tirade about how hot he was and what a great catch he was and how dumb my sister was for giving him up. (She didn't give him up, he was forced to leave the state and have no contact with her after he tried to kill her [my mother paid his bail while the deal was being worked out and she was fully prepared to give him money to skip town if he needed to], which my aunt was fully aware of when she was praising the shit out of him at the burial a decade later.)

Family is sometimes better from a distance.

I'm not going to go into detail about my abuse, but it began on my 12 birthday, Monday, September 10, 2001, and the next day I was allowed to stay home from school because I was "sick." Inevitably, every time I see anything about 9/11, I flash to watching the disaster unfold on TV and realize I came down the night before like buildings did that day.

The abuse continued until I ran away from home the following August.

Like you, I was betrayed by those who should've protected me. This type of abuse is bothersome, not that other types aren't, but when family members throw you to the wolves or are the wolves, cancer has grown, necessitating one to remove it. I couldn't remove them, so I removed myself. I won't detail my life after that. It wasn't pleasant. Even after my real dad fostered me, I'd run back to live on the streets. There was no sense of worthiness inside me for happiness. In time, my dad and mum loved me into happiness and acceptance.

 

[Whanmore]

Yeah. Characters that say 'no' could be useful for a lot of things. For an attractive female SHe could have higher standards thus making her quest for the right guy more fullfinning when she finially finds someone to say 'yes' to.

Vice versa an attractive women can be rejected by someone thus affecting her self esteem, leading to other less inhibited actions.

A character saying 'no' could lead to a non-consent situation.

Most definitely having characters say no can add a realism to your stories as most humans have experienced rejection. I'm new to Lit but I do remember how getting rejected in college fueled my desires for affirmation so I try to use that in my stories

 

[Norway_1705]

About No and BDSM. Imho, I think it is important for the reader to read that the safeword is spoken and that everyone present respects it. It is not enough to agree on a trivial word (Red!), it is important to build the narrative around unforeseen weaknesses, psychological trauma, and respect. In my humble tales, Safewords are used all the time and all people present interrupt the PLAY and immediately become attentive, protective, and helpful. And I am not talking about cramps or choking or broken objects-sometimes you just need to see a color of nail polish. https://literotica.com/s/12-labors-of-hercules-caged-pt-08

I think telling a "Safeword Respected" scene would be very useful in general to make a BDSM scenario more believable especially from a "Gentle Femdom" or long FLR perspective because relying on another person bound and gagged implies a strong dose of trust.

Complaints, okay. Moaning, okay. It's all part of the game. The submissive person will scream "Halt, stop it, I beg you!" and both will be aroused more, also because they know it is not the correct safeword (which is "tiger cubs" instead). ("Red" is an unuseful word: dozens of things are red and can mislead.).

I understand that the one-handed reading public only wants to see absolute submission and selfcentred bullying. Maybe there is a certain "epicness" in describing a male so much Alpha, that he hears the safeword of his bound woman, and neglects to obey agreements. Very wild, very "I obey no one and nothing," very "nothing can stop me when I am aroused." But it is unrealistic and creates false expectations. More importantly, it causes writers to neglect to tell about the ("new," unexpected) dynamics that arise between the protagonists after the Safeword is spoken.

Real life is full of "Implied No's." No there, no that, no on Sunday, no on the beach, no with light, no with socks. Don't look at your sister, don't desire your teacher, don't give up your Freedom, don't fuck your wife's best friend (if two women are such friends, they will love the same man, won't they?). Breaking all those "implied no's" sets up a story: he's going to fuck his wife's best friend (a teacher!) on Sunday, on the beach in his dirty socks. Add more prohibitions ad libitum. Just because something is forbidden, it increases the taste.

Writers (and poets) simply make some "NO's" explicit. If you wanted, every line of an Incest or Reluctant short story could be rewritten explicating all the implied "no's" over and over again. But it would make the text as repetitive and hard to read as Joyce's Dubliners.

 

[Bramblethorn]

About No and BDSM. Imho, I think it is important for the reader to read that the safeword is spoken and that everyone present respects it. It is not enough to agree on a trivial word (Red!), it is important to build the narrative around unforeseen weaknesses, psychological trauma, and respect. In my humble tales, Safewords are used all the time and all people present interrupt the PLAY and immediately become attentive, protective, and helpful. And I am not talking about cramps or choking or broken objects-sometimes you just need to see a color of nail polish. https://literotica.com/s/12-labors-of-hercules-caged-pt-08

I think telling a "Safeword Respected" scene would be very useful in general to make a BDSM scenario more believable especially from a "Gentle Femdom" or long FLR perspective because relying on another person bound and gagged implies a strong dose of trust.

Safewords (including gagged equivalents) are good and useful things, and I've written at least one "safeword respected" scene here.

But I think sometimes they become a bit of a lazy cliché in BDSM fiction: authors slot in a boilerplate "setting the safeword" scene and then they feel like they can tick off consent/well-being and not have to think about it any more, unless/until the safeword is used. IME, that's a bit like running a driver safety class where the only technique taught is "how to hit the brakes in an emergency" - sure it's important, but it shouldn't be the only thing on the curriculum!

(Not saying you were doing or advocating this, just using your post as a launching-off point here.)

 

[Norway_1705]

Safewords (including gagged equivalents) are good and useful things, and I've written at least one "safeword respected" scene here.

But I think sometimes they become a bit of a lazy cliché in BDSM fiction: authors slot in a boilerplate "setting the safeword" scene and then they feel like they can tick off consent/well-being and not have to think about it any more, unless/until the safeword is used. IME, that's a bit like running a driver safety class where the only technique taught is "how to hit the brakes in an emergency" - sure it's important, but it shouldn't be the only thing on the curriculum!

(Not saying you were doing or advocating this, just using your post as a launching-off point here.)

Exactly! Thank you. I really meant that lazily mentioning the existence of a silly safeword and then pretending that the consensus doesn't have to be rechecked at every stage is lazy on the part of writers.
Let's add a little more "the wife feared she had whipped too hard, unwillingly. She waited a moment before continuing, doubtful. She saw big tears flowing from her husband's eyes. "Say it: say tiger cubs, and you'll be released right away," she thought. But respectfully she said nothing, waiting. She breathed deeply. Okay. We'll continue."
Boring? I'm boring, okay, but a talented writer might take that as a challenge.

(And how could I also ask Oglaf for an image? Oh, Oglaf! My all-time favorite comic, along with Sunstone, and Frank Cho!)

 

[Lifestyle66]

Let's add a little more "the wife feared she had whipped too hard, unwillingly. She waited a moment before continuing, doubtful. She saw big tears flowing from her husband's eyes. "Say it: say tiger cubs, and you'll be released right away," she thought. But respectfully she said nothing, waiting. She breathed deeply. Okay. We'll continue."

Here's an interesting thought which came to mind with your scene:

Isn't such a demand for the sub to use the safeword similar to extracting a confession with torture?

"Say he committed the crime and you'll be released right away. Otherwise, we'll continue to beat you!"

For a BDSM scene to be realistic and with safewords in the proper context, the Dom would need to have prior discussions with the sub to fully understand and know which limits are not to be crossed. I was told by one sub that such Dom/sub relationships are built on her trusting her Dom to respect her limits, and not on safewords.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Exactly! Thank you. I really meant that lazily mentioning the existence of a silly safeword and then pretending that the consensus doesn't have to be rechecked at every stage is lazy on the part of writers.
Let's add a little more "the wife feared she had whipped too hard, unwillingly. She waited a moment before continuing, doubtful. She saw big tears flowing from her husband's eyes. "Say it: say tiger cubs, and you'll be released right away," she thought. But respectfully she said nothing, waiting. She breathed deeply. Okay. We'll continue."
Boring? I'm boring, okay, but a talented writer might take that as a challenge.

Yeah, I think that kind of thing can be made interesting, especially if there's a dynamic between the characters that goes beyond "they are having kinky sex together". The specifics are going to depend very much on the individuals - have they done this before? with one another? etc. etc. and thinking about "how would THIS particular domme reassure herself that her sub is OK?" helps show their characterisation.

A while back I read a short piece - I think by Jay Wiseman, not absolutely certain - about a scene with a novice sub where he had depended solely on a safeword. She hadn't safeworded during the scene, so he assumed she was okay, but in fact she was really freaking out and had mentally blocked up to the point where she couldn't use her safeword.

Some of the sites that do BDSM videos include the preliminary negotiation/ground rules discussion, and I find those quite interesting. As well as limits and safewords, they'll discuss check-ins - "if I see you crying I'm going to ask once if you're okay, and if you say yes I won't ask again, but you can still safeword any time you need" kind of thing.

(And how could I also ask Oglaf for an image? Oh, Oglaf! My all-time favorite comic, along with Sunstone, and Frank Cho!)

Excellent taste!

It's been quite a while and I can't now say where I asked them, but they were cool with me using a crop from Oglaf as long as I credited it.

I will probably be changing this image soon - I still love that scene, but when the site shifted from square user icons to round ones it cropped a lot of the text.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Here's an interesting thought which came to mind with your scene:

Isn't such a demand for the sub to use the safeword similar to extracting a confession with torture?

"Say he committed the crime and you'll be released right away. Otherwise, we'll continue to beat you!"

Note that in Norway's example, that's inner dialogue, not actually spoken to the husband, so she's not actually demanding it in that particular case.

But I've seen examples where people used "torture to confession" role-play as a way to keep safewords in-scene, as it were - effectively "when we're reached your limits, you 'confess' and it stops".

For a BDSM scene to be realistic and with safewords in the proper context, the Dom would need to have prior discussions with the sub to fully understand and know which limits are not to be crossed. I was told by one sub that such Dom/sub relationships are built on her trusting her Dom to respect her limits, and not on safewords.

Yeah, for me safewords are very much a safety net - if somebody ends up safewording, it means I screwed up. For others, I gather, "escalate until safeword" might be the plan. Probably one of those things worth clarifying beforehand!

 

[Kumquatqueen]

a scene with a novice sub where he had depended solely on a safeword. She hadn't safeworded during the scene, so he assumed she was okay, but in fact she was really freaking out and had mentally blocked up to the point where she couldn't use her safeword. ...

As well as limits and safewords, they'll discuss check-ins - "if I see you crying I'm going to ask once if you're okay, and if you say yes I won't ask again, but you can still safeword any time you need" kind of thing.

There's been a couple abusers going round the UK scene, where 'dom' man finds (yet another) cute fragile young woman, talks her into a scene in private where she's restrained, then goes way further than she'd have liked, but goes 'but you should have used your safeword', when it should be obvious that if someone is crying and struggling to catch their breath, and panicking, they aren't going to suddenly enunciate "Peter Piper picked a peck of pickled peppers".

Ongoing consent is more important - squeezing the top's fingers an agreed number of times at a regular check-in, for example. Or not dropping a piece of cloth. Both feasible even when someone's too choked up to speak.

Or as one of my characters explains:
"...do I choose a safeword now?"
"If you want," Ali dismissed the need. "I like 'safeword', myself. Communicating in plain English. Words like 'no' and 'stop' will be taken at face value. Seriously."

She continued, "And I'll be watching you. If you're not a writhing gibbering mess under me, all gasping and unable to speak, I'm doing something wrong, babe. [...] So I'll be watching closely, figuring if you're OK. If you want to get into stuff where you really don't want me to stop until ... a much higher threshold is reached, we'll need to get to know each other much better, babes. I'd need to know what your happy cry looks like, your 'too much' face, your nervous excited moan, and I'd need to recognise the noises you make when you get turned off..."

 

[EarlyMorningLight]

There's been a couple abusers going round the UK scene, where 'dom' man finds (yet another) cute fragile young woman, talks her into a scene in private where she's restrained, then goes way further than she'd have liked, but goes 'but you should have used your safeword', when it should be obvious that if someone is crying and struggling to catch their breath, and panicking, they aren't going to suddenly enunciate "Peter Piper picked a peck of pickled peppers".

Ongoing consent is more important - squeezing the top's fingers an agreed number of times at a regular check-in, for example. Or not dropping a piece of cloth. Both feasible even when someone's too choked up to speak.

Or as one of my characters explains:
"...do I choose a safeword now?"
"If you want," Ali dismissed the need. "I like 'safeword', myself. Communicating in plain English. Words like 'no' and 'stop' will be taken at face value. Seriously."

She continued, "And I'll be watching you. If you're not a writhing gibbering mess under me, all gasping and unable to speak, I'm doing something wrong, babe. [...] So I'll be watching closely, figuring if you're OK. If you want to get into stuff where you really don't want me to stop until ... a much higher threshold is reached, we'll need to get to know each other much better, babes. I'd need to know what your happy cry looks like, your 'too much' face, your nervous excited moan, and I'd need to recognise the noises you make when you get turned off..."

This is why, in addition to being proactive with frequent check-ins, I encourage partners to remember that there’s a “green” in the traffic lights for them to reiterate consent and give positive feedback on what’s happening. It can take people awhile to get the hang of it, especially if they’re not used to enthusiastic consent practices or scenes that are a two-way conversation.

 

[Norway_1705]

Or as one of my characters explains: "...do I choose a safeword now?"
"If you want," Ali dismissed the need. "I like 'safeword', myself. Communicating in plain English. Words like 'no' and 'stop' will be taken at face value. Seriously."

I understand, but plain English will also be used to say roleplaying phrases. The submissive person will say, "OMG! The pain you are inflicting on me is unbearable, keep going, don't stop, I'm about to explode, I beg you!" and these words will excite both of them. Instead if he or she says "tiger cubs" it is to get a real proactive pause. I would add, that Dom might need a break, too! To go to the bathroom, for an arm cramp, for a faint (and to avoid The Gerald's Game by S. King of course). But also because some thing (a word, a gesture) triggered a painful or melancholy memory. Even the doms have a heart (?).

And about: "they aren't going to suddenly enunciate "Peter Piper picked a peck of pickled peppers"."

Here it is: perfect example of Bad Safeword. difficult, contrived, and easy to get wrong, so a sadist might grin, "Piper? no, dear, it's Peeker," and continue the abuse. Very bad. A good Safeword must be short. And completely unrelated to the situation: to avoid misunderstandings.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

This is why, in addition to being proactive with frequent check-ins, I encourage partners to remember that there’s a “green” in the traffic lights for them to reiterate consent and give positive feedback on what’s happening. It can take people awhile to get the hang of it, especially if they’re not used to enthusiastic consent practices or scenes that are a two-way conversation.

Exactly, and I hope that's what Norway is getting at. Some pairs will enjoy some roleplaying and both are still capagble of speech and safewords will work as long as neither feels judged for using them. But if you've got a hardcore masochist deep in a floaty headspace, or just getting off on most of the sensations, you're running a significant risk that they can't catch their breath or thoughts enough to say a safeword.

Speech can be tricky or just enough effort that someone's jolted out of their headspace, but signals that indicate red/amber/green can be really helpful. Forcing someone to admit they actually want more depraved stuff done to them can be remarkably effective, too.

I recall telling a chap, disappointedly, "Oh, you stopped."
"Well, you did say stop..."
"Oh, yeah. Bugger."
(conversation about nonverbal safeguards ensues)
"Sigh. Let's start all over again, then. Making me do more work here..."

Lovely guy. Made the scene fail safe. You can always repeat a scene to make it better.

 

[Duleigh]

So to what extent do you have characters say ‘no’ in your stories? If a character doesn’t feel like doing something now, do you go with a ‘no’ or a ‘never say never’?

I had a pair of lovers who said "no" and saved themselves for marriage but that's about it, I do have two females who occasionally make love to each other but insist that they are straight and "it's complicated" and mostly "It's none of your business" They ended up marrying the same guy at the same time (it's complicated) I never considered having one character putting another character in a position that they need to slam down a permanent no

 

[EarlyDawn1973]

I had a character that said "no" but an offer was made and she had to make a decision within a certain amount of time. She eventually agreed even tho she was reluctant.