About characters saying 'no'

[TheRedChamber]

I've been reflecting on my work and the plot devices, setups and tropes I tend to use, and one thing I've noticed is that a lot of my stories have a moment in them where one of the main characters gives what I would call a 'permanent no' to a particular sexual activity or having a relationship with a particular person. This is different from what I would call a 'no before a yes' - that is when a character says 'no' early in the story to emphasise the challenge to be overcome so the later 'yes' feels like a victory - the cheerleader might laugh at the nerd's advances in chapter 1, but by chapter 3 when he's electrocuted the whole zombie horde outside the faculty building with his science project, the advances suddenly seem a whole lot more welcome. Or alternatively, the heroine doesn't think that she's into BDSM, but that millionaires just go so much damn money and his own helicopter that now she’s thinking maybe a little bit of slap and tickle wouldn’t be too bad.

With a ‘permanent no’ the character simply isn’t interested in doing that (or worse is disgusted by it) and, as far as the story is concerned that’s that – if it’s brought up again it’s likely to be a major source of tension, but give the length of most of my short stories, it probably won’t be. Some examples from my stories…

• A 30-year old virgin is experimenting with different ‘personas’ in order to get over her sexual hang-ups. During a haircut, her (male) date suggests she hooks up with her (female) stylist. She instantly says no and gets pissed. Later, once she’s resolved her issues, she makes it clear that the ‘lesbian persona’ isn’t one she’ll be revisiting.
• A mature sub is playing with an inexperienced dom. The dom does something that was not agreed and the sub dislikes. She immediately says ‘quit it’ and he does so. She regrets not having discussed things more fully with him before starting (but it was sexier this way) and resolves to have a discussion with him afterwards – this presumably happens ‘off page’, but this activity/issue is never brought up again.
• The young guy wins the young girl by refusing casual (and apparently consequenceless) sex with a more mature swinger. In this story, the implied hook-up with the young girl (+ possibly the young guy) which motives the mature couple doesn’t even come close to happening and clearly never will by the end of the story.
• Probably the most notable instance of this is in my story in which the main character nopes out of sleeping with his mother so hard that he moves to another continent and establishes a new identity. (This went down well in I/T)

This seems natural to me when writing – a character is defined as much by their sexual limits as they are by their proclivities. But reading a lot of stories, I’m not really sure how often this shows up in other people’s writing. If you take the view of a plot as being a series of promises made to a reader, introducing or teasing a fetish or situation only to snatch it away might be seen as unfair to those readers who wanted to see it.


I’m currently in the middle of writing a swinging story where, after a thousand words of foreplay, the guest characters asks the wife several times if it’s okay for the wife’s husband to fuck her, only for the wife to turn around and say ‘actually no’ and breakdown in tears the third time – a great twist or just dicking around with someone’s stroke?


So to what extent do you have characters say ‘no’ in your stories? If a character doesn’t feel like doing something now, do you go with a ‘no’ or a ‘never say never’?

 

[EarlyMorningLight]

Is it important to illustrate something about the character, or the relationship? Is it a key part of the story you're trying to tell?

If so, I say go for it. There's nothing that says we can'r write stories with nuance and complexity. Not everything has to be an easy stroker. Just make sure you're doing it for the right reasons, and not to throw in a twist for the sake of it.

I will add: it bugs the hell out of me how few BDSM stories feature the responsible use of safewords. Even in the vast amount of stories that actually show a safeword being established, you never see them being used.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I don't think I've ever written a character who says no.

I have one character who says no to vaginal sex, but is quite content to use her other orifices. But I think that's it.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

I'm thinking that swinging story could work very well if the woman sniffles and realises that sex with her own husband could be really hot with the other couple there and watching, and end up with them all having a great time playing with the ideas of swapping, talking about it, but choosing not to do it just because the freedom to choose is enough.



I certainly use a no quite frequently in my stories - most recently a man deciding he is straight, thank you, and currently debating another man and how his character would react to pegging - definitely a no at first, but would it read like unrealistic porn if he changed his mind? For women in particular, having a no and having it be respected is a signal her character can relax a bit. To use a cliché, consent is sexy...

 

[PennameWombat]

I’ve used ‘no’ sparingly and quite selectively. I despise ‘stalker’ plot lines (or, I guess their fans might think of them as pursuit?) where a character stalks their love interest who finally gives in (given it’s a massive staple across mainstream, I dislike all of those.) So I won’t use a ‘no’ as a setup for this (unless I eventually intend the stalked party to empty both barrels of a 12 gauge at close range into the stalker and walk away free afterward.)

I have a few rare ‘permanent’ uses of ’no’, I’ve had a couple of uses of “no” happen at parties so I could have other characters tease the turned-down one. But these were spur of the moment and everyone moved on. The other cases are avoiding an offer outside of a strict preference (straight turning down same-sex, gay turning down opposite sex). In these cases, no means no and that’s it (yeah, sorry, I’ll generate conflict other ways, unless someone’s eating a 12 gauge).

Generally it’s a temporary ‘no’ where the party using it IS interested, but the time isn’t right and their reaction leaves the door open. Or it’s two characters who haven’t quite figured it out yet, but in these cases there isn’t really a ‘no,’ it’s just that no one’s gotten around to asking yet.

Mostly I see my stories here as, uh, including desire. So my focus is on characters who feel it.

 

[TheRedChamber]

Is it important to illustrate something about the character, or the relationship? Is it a key part of the story you're trying to tell?...Just make sure you're doing it for the right reasons, and not to throw in a twist for the sake of it.

I remember George Lucas talking about how he couldn't possibly make Anakin Skywalker more that 8 years old (or whatever) in the Phantom Menace because 'it was a key part of the story [he] was trying to tell' and shouting at the screen 'that part sucks, tell a different story' (metaphorically, I'm not actually unhinged...). Saying no illustates something about characters, but them saying yes does as well. But often the 'no's are to something tangental or less important - this is erotica and I do want the characters to get getting it on eventually and generally the story would proceed simiarly without that particular detail. Having one character say that they might be interested in exploring same-sex relationships in the future or having a sub enjoy an unexpected activity (or just having the dom not do it at all) don't really change the main thrust of most of the plots at all.

On the other hand, I'd compare it to George R.R. Martin's thing about, if you make it clear characters can die even in the middle of a book, it makes it more meaningful when they survive. Similarly, if a character says 'no' to thing A, it makes it more exciting when they are considering doing thing B - a similar point to 'no but later yes', but crucially different.

With my current story, it could be a twist too far. I'll have to see how I feel about it when the story is complete.

I will add: it bugs the hell out of me how few BDSM stories feature the responsible use of safewords. Even in the vast amount of stories that actually show a safeword being established, you never see them being used.

I've written a few stories where the sub has forgotten to set a safeword, but usually with the clear authorial message of 'look, this is why you always set a safeword' although usually the characters are fine because I tend to write 'cosy' BDSM relationships anyway. Actually using a safeword can really kill the momentum of a scene, so I've only done it when there was an actual fire in the room! Inspiration! - I'm going to think about how you might start a story seconds after a safeword has been used, with the resolution of whatever issue triggered it being the culmination of the story.

 

[TheRedChamber]

I'm thinking that swinging story could work very well if the woman sniffles and realises that sex with her own husband could be really hot with the other couple there and watching, and end up with them all having a great time playing with the ideas of swapping, talking about it, but choosing not to do it just because the freedom to choose is enough.

My stories tend to have way too much plot, so there are fifty other elements going on at the same time I won't bore you with, but essentially that's it. She thinks she consents right up to the point where she doesn't - she breaks down, (there's a chapter break), she's is comforted, gets herself together and more fun is had, but she's exclusive with her husband.

I certainly use a no quite frequently in my stories - most recently a man deciding he is straight, thank you, and currently debating another man and how his character would react to pegging - definitely a no at first, but would it read like unrealistic porn if he changed his mind? For women in particular, having a no and having it be respected is a signal her character can relax a bit.

The porn way of doing things is for the woman to say 'if you ever want me to do anal again, you'll try it once.' The more sensitive way might be for him to have a conversation with a gay friend (or hetero pegging devotee) about how good it can be as a pure sensation (regardless of sexual orientation) and for him to decide to try it.

(Or have him come back from a prostate examination saying 'You know what...')

To use a cliché, consent is sexy...

"Those three little words that every man dreams of hearing - 'If you must...'" - Caroline Ahern.

 

[MrPixel]

I use 'no!' and 'stop!' frequently in my stories, especially the series I'm working on now. The protagonist has a spiritual aura that attracts women and he has to fend them off on occasion.

The safeword setup can be fun. In one chapter, the doms asked for a safeword from their first-time sub, and the immediate response was "pomegranate". They were taken aback, "You've done this before!"

 

[TheRedChamber]

The safeword setup can be fun. In one chapter, the doms asked for a safeword from their first-time sub, and the immediate response was "pomegranate". They were taken aback, "Damn it! Now I'm going to have to find something else to shove up that orrifice."

Fixed that for you. I mean, by making it made it much much worse.

 

[TheRedChamber]

I’ve used ‘no’ sparingly and quite selectively. I despise ‘stalker’ plot lines (or, I guess their fans might think of them as pursuit?) where a character stalks their love interest who finally gives in (given it’s a massive staple across mainstream, I dislike all of those.) So I won’t use a ‘no’ as a setup for this (unless I eventually intend the stalked party to empty both barrels of a 12 gauge at close range into the stalker and walk away free afterward.)

To be clear, even a 'no before a yes' can be done reasonably - 'no, I don't want to come up for coffee, but I'm really looking forward to our next date'. The 'yes' doesn't have to be in response to being asked repeatedly. I've done 'boy asks girl out, girl says no, girls feelings change, girl makes boy chase her naked across the Yorkshire Moors' before (still time to vote in the Nude Day Competition, just saying...)

I have a few rare ‘permanent’ uses of ’no’, I’ve had a couple of uses of “no” happen at parties so I could have other characters tease the turned-down one. But these were spur of the moment and everyone moved on. The other cases are avoiding an offer outside of a strict preference (straight turning down same-sex, gay turning down opposite sex). In these cases, no means no and that’s it (yeah, sorry, I’ll generate conflict other ways, unless someone’s eating a 12 gauge).

Generally it’s a temporary ‘no’ where the party using it IS interested, but the time isn’t right and their reaction leaves the door open. Or it’s two characters who haven’t quite figured it out yet, but in these cases there isn’t really a ‘no,’ it’s just that no one’s gotten around to asking yet.

Mostly I see my stories here as, uh, including desire. So my focus is on characters who feel it.

Desire is obviously vital to erotica, but a lot of stories end up featuring couples who are just too damn compatible it becomes amusing, especially if you read anything in the Fetish catagory.

"I like food play."
"Great I like food play too."
"You ever experiment with cheese?"
"All the time."
"My favourite place to spread it is on the lower back."
"Wow, that's where I love having it spread too."
"French cheeses?"
"Yes"
"Bree."
"Of course."
"From Marks and Spensers."
"Where else?"

Compromise in a relationship is important and you need to have some differences for compromise to be necessary. At least start a chapter with the words "The Edam was a disaster..."

 

[SimonDoom]

Having a character say "no" may advance the development of the character, but most of the time it doesn't make the story more erotic. I can't imagine writing an Anal story where at the end the character says "no" to anal sex. That makes no sense from me from an erotic story standpoint. The point of an erotic story (for me, anyway) is erotic fulfillment, not erotic denial (unless you're one of those people who find denial sexy).

I can imagine a character saying no to something multiple times, before finally saying yes, but that doesn't see to fit your hard no concept.

It seems like a perfectly legitimate device for a non-erotic story, but it doesn't seem like a useful advice to me in an erotic story.

 

[Lifestyle66]

I’m currently in the middle of writing a swinging story where, after a thousand words of foreplay, the guest characters asks the wife several times if it’s okay for the wife’s husband to fuck her, only for the wife to turn around and say ‘actually no’ and breakdown in tears the third time – a great twist or just dicking around with someone’s stroke?


So to what extent do you have characters say ‘no’ in your stories? If a character doesn’t feel like doing something now, do you go with a ‘no’ or a ‘never say never’?

My swinger series has the wife initially saying a hard "NO" to getting together with any couples having a Bi wife. In one of their first encounters, the other homophobic wife even tersely asks "Did you just touch my boob?" to underscore it. Then through several encounters and talks with other swinger women, the MC wife gradually loosens up to the idea.

Several chapters later, she has another encounter: “No! I’m not Bi. It just happened when you shoved me with one of your thrusts, I bumped into her. She was spread open in front of me. I never saw a pussy from that angle. Being so close to her, it caught my attention. And I started exploring further with my fingers. But I’m not Bi!”

In two more chapters, I'll have her going all the way with it (in draft): "Jan told me that after I left the bedroom, Sarah had pushed her onto the bed and went down on her. So, after a few minutes of enjoying Sarah’s oral attention, she decided to return the favor. She said, “I was just being polite.”" But this will be after a year in the swinger lifestyle.


In my opinion, such changes to a hard "NO" need to occur slowly, so as to not come across as a fake "bait & switch".


My "Mentors" chapter has the experienced swingers warning the newbies about emotional drama: "You won't know how you'll really feel about it until you see it." So, I'll look forward to reading yours about the wife saying no to the other woman fucking her husband, then breaking down in tears.

 

[Rustyoznail]

It seems like a perfectly legitimate device for a non-erotic story, but it doesn't seem like a useful advice to me in an erotic story.

Oh, it has its place in erotica.

"Is there ANYTHING you won't do?"

"No."

(And yes, I know I selectively picked apart your quote...)

 

[TheRedChamber]

Having a character say "no" may advance the development of the character, but most of the time it doesn't make the story more erotic. I can't imagine writing an Anal story where at the end the character says "no" to anal sex. That makes no sense from me from an erotic story standpoint. The point of an erotic story (for me, anyway) is erotic fulfillment, not erotic denial (unless you're one of those people who find denial sexy).

I can imagine a character saying no to something multiple times, before finally saying yes, but that doesn't see to fit your hard no concept.

It seems like a perfectly legitimate device for a non-erotic story, but it doesn't seem like a useful advice to me in an erotic story.

Well, for an anal story, the 'no' wouldn't be to anal in its entirely, it would be come after having played with two butt-plugs of increasing size, he offers her the third one, she takes one look at it and says 'don't be silly'. Thus, when he's actually fucking her, there's some doubt in the reader's mind about whether she'll actually be able to take it because we've established her anus isn't made out of rubber bands.

But if you write that, you'll always have the reader comments wondering where chapter 2 is and telling you exactly what they want to happen...

 

[TheRedChamber]

My swinger series has the wife initially saying a hard "NO" to getting together with any couples having a Bi wife. In one of their first encounters, the other homophobic wife even tersely asks "Did you just touch my boob?" to underscore it. Then through several encounters and talks with other swinger women, the MC wife gradually loosens up to the idea.

Several chapters later, she has another encounter: “No! I’m not Bi. It just happened when you shoved me with one of your thrusts, I bumped into her. She was spread open in front of me. I never saw a pussy from that angle. Being so close to her, it caught my attention. And I started exploring further with my fingers. But I’m not Bi!”

In two more chapters, I'll have her going all the way with it (in draft): "Jan told me that after I left the bedroom, Sarah had pushed her onto the bed and went down on her. So, after a few minutes of enjoying Sarah’s oral attention, she decided to return the favor. She said, “I was just being polite.”" But this will be after a year in the swinger lifestyle.


In my opinion, such changes to a hard "NO" need to occur slowly, so as to not come across as a fake "bait & switch".

I used the phrase 'permanent no' because in a lot of stories a 'hard no' becomes a yes later on - which is fine, people change their minds. This seems like a slower take on the 'no before yes' with a more extreme no at the beginning.

My "Mentors" chapter has the experienced swingers warning the newbies about emotional drama: "You won't know how you'll really feel about it until you see it." So, I'll look forward to reading yours about the wife saying no to the other woman fucking her husband, then breaking down in tears.

Thanks. I'm still working out how to wrap it all up.

 

[SimonDoom]

Oh, it has its place in erotica.

"Is there ANYTHING you won't do?"

"No."

(And yes, I know I selectively picked apart your quote...)

That's what I call "not a 'real no' no."

 

[yowser]

I think it all comes down to the nature of the particular story and the specific character saying 'no', it certainly can be a feature of that individual's worldview, and can have some exploration potential.

From a 'letters and transcripts' story:

"Sorry, didn't mean it to come out that way. And no, I am going to anticipate your next email and next question -- NO and NEVER. I know some girls like it in the ass, but I won't. I can guarantee that. And a big one up there? Forget it."

For this (very oral) girl, that's a non-negotiable factor, but it serves as a counterpoint to the rest of her sexual thinking.

 

[Bramblethorn]

So to what extent do you have characters say ‘no’ in your stories? If a character doesn’t feel like doing something now, do you go with a ‘no’ or a ‘never say never’?

In Red Scarf, Sarah and Anjali go through one of those BDSM checklists marking off yes, no, and maybes. Later in the story Sarah challenges Anjali to try some of those maybes, and later again Anjali safewords when Sarah fucks up and pushes the wrong button.

Perhaps the most important "no" in that story isn't a sexual "no" but a relationship one.

 

[8letters]

In my story "My European Summer Vacation", the MMC and the MFC have spent the day exploring Heidelberg with a Dutch couple and an American couple. After dinner that night, the Dutch couple proposes swapping partners for the night. The American couple agrees. The Dutch man asks the MMC if he and the MFC want to swap partners too. The MFC has given the MMC no clues as to what she wants. He decides to say no, which is what she wanted him to say. That saying no is a major turning point in their relationship.

 

[Lifestyle66]

I used the phrase 'permanent no' because in a lot of stories a 'hard no' becomes a yes later on - which is fine, people change their minds. This seems like a slower take on the 'no before yes' with a more extreme no at the beginning.

Even a 'permanent no' can change later. That's what time does to all of us, unless the character dies first. Then their 'no' would be permanent.

In any one story for that period of time, the 'no' is NO! But in my chapters published later, things change as people do.

My MCs go through their lifestyle with their rules and changes. That's part of their conflicts and resolutions. Their 'same room' rule (extra-marital sex with the spouse in the same room) is a 'NO' to extra-marital sex out of view of the spouse. But situations present themselves and they must adjust to the conflict.

So, how do we frame a 'permanent no' unless we have the character say: "I'll be dead before I ever to THAT!"

 

[KeithD]

I can't think of a permanent no being erotic, so, no, I wouldn't normally think of using that situation in erotica.

 

[KeithD]

Even a 'permanent no' can change later.

Well, no, it would seem, by definition, it couldn't change--by the definition of "permanent."

 

[stickygirl]

It must be me, but there's a huge elephant in the room. Maybe I've missed it in skimming through the posts.

 

[SimonDoom]

It must be me, but there's a huge elephant in the room. Maybe I've missed it in skimming through the posts.

What do you see as the elephant? Don't be coy. Say it.

 

[stickygirl]

What do you see as the elephant? Don't be coy. Say it.

Simply the adage that no means no - what we tell our kids so that they hopefully don't end up on rape charges. Everything I've read is 'no but...' We write erotica, so it's a given it will include sex. I don't expect authors here to beat the drum for social education, just surprised it hasn't been raised.