Being an attractive, strong and confident power-female is a problem?

jezzilee said:

I call this multiples. Because I love multiples. Everyone has multiple personalities whether they admit it or not. The person you show to your children, the person you show to your friends, the person you are to your lover(s) the person you are to your coworkers.... multiple personalities.

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That's a really good point Jezzi
In the army when we talked about leadership we had a phrase. You are three people, who you are, who you think you are, and who others think you are. None of them are the same person.

DesEsseintes said:

Of course that can be so. But there is a difference between role playing in the bedroom, and living it 24/7. Some people think the latter is impossible, because it means never letting the mask drop. But that implies that every Dom and sub is always wearing a mask.

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I have to point out that there aren't two choices, "role playing in the bedroom, and living it 24/7." That kind of statement sort of encourages this view that people who choose a dominant role have to be dominant all the time (or they're not "true") or the opposite for submissives. People are complex, and social interactions are complex. Some people take a more dominant role with certain people (whether they realize it or not) and they'll take a more submissive role with others. So too can an individual take either a dominant or submissive role in a relationship with one person depending on the circumstances, without it ever being an act or "role play". I don't know if this is just my definition of roleplay, because I do that recreationally with friends, and under those circumstances it is acting. My husband has explicitly stated, on multiple occasions, that I make the decisions. However, in the bedroom he is in charge, and my submitting to him under those circumstances is not some show or act that is put on.

I think the original poster has made up her mind as to why people don't choose to form relationships with her, but I wonder if she's ever actually asked them? It could be any number of reasons. Sure, some men might be turned off by attractive, strong, and confident people (the "out of my league" mentality). It could be any number of other things too, including aspects of her personality. I don't say this as a barb either, because I'm not exactly drawing tons of close friends to myself and I know some of that is my personality. Some people have personalities that draw people in and make them want to be close to that person, and others don't.

SpunThings said:

I think the original poster has made up her mind as to why people don't choose to form relationships with her, but I wonder if she's ever actually asked them? It could be any number of reasons. Sure, some men might be turned off by attractive, strong, and confident people (the "out of my league" mentality). It could be any number of other things too, including aspects of her personality. I don't say this as a barb either, because I'm not exactly drawing tons of close friends to myself and I know some of that is my personality. Some people have personalities that draw people in and make them want to be close to that person, and others don't.

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I almost spit out my treasured Sauvignon Blanc on this one.

One should never assume, because...yadda, yadda, yadda....feel free to chime along: It makes an ass out of u and me.

If anything, SpunThings, I have too many friends! People are intrinsically drawn to me. I am charming, intelligent and friendly. Extremely friendly.
Whoa. let me rephrase that, men are intrinsically drawn to me. I have no problem attracting friends and/or lovers. I have lots of opportunities for relationships...just not the kind that keep me enthralled or sexually interested.

I am a she-wolf living in a forest full of rabbits and I am sick and tired of hasenpfeffer for hasenpfeffer's sake.

Time is ticking, men. Quit psychoanalysing me, grow some b***s, oops...I mean courage, and put the collar on the wolf...for the love of god!

SpunThings said:

I have to point out that there aren't two choices, "role playing in the bedroom, and living it 24/7." That kind of statement sort of encourages this view that people who choose a dominant role have to be dominant all the time (or they're not "true") or the opposite for submissives. People are complex, and social interactions are complex. Some people take a more dominant role with certain people (whether they realize it or not) and they'll take a more submissive role with others. So too can an individual take either a dominant or submissive role in a relationship with one person depending on the circumstances, without it ever being an act or "role play". I don't know if this is just my definition of roleplay, because I do that recreationally with friends, and under those circumstances it is acting. My husband has explicitly stated, on multiple occasions, that I make the decisions. However, in the bedroom he is in charge, and my submitting to him under those circumstances is not some show or act that is put on.

I think the original poster has made up her mind as to why people don't choose to form relationships with her, but I wonder if she's ever actually asked them? It could be any number of reasons. Sure, some men might be turned off by attractive, strong, and confident people (the "out of my league" mentality). It could be any number of other things too, including aspects of her personality. I don't say this as a barb either, because I'm not exactly drawing tons of close friends to myself and I know some of that is my personality. Some people have personalities that draw people in and make them want to be close to that person, and others don't.

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You made a 'sorta point' that I feel compelled to counter.

Being 'Dom' just is. It's almost automatic. You pick and choose those points you decide to decide upon, the rest you let go of. In the sexual realm you push the boundaries, continuously. But you respect the limits, And if you can't live with those limits, you move on.

A poster previously talked about the three personalities. And the is correct, but I will amplify. We, as humans, live in the sexual realm, the intellectual realm, and the reality realm. Those three realms are compartmentalized for the most part. I think that self-awareness of how you divide your compartments is an essential part of knowing, and being, you.

Ishmael

valhallacanwait said:

I almost spit out my treasured Sauvignon Blanc on this one.

One should never assume, because...yadda, yadda, yadda....feel free to chime along: It makes an ass out of u and me.

If anything, SpunThings, I have too many friends! People are intrinsically drawn to me. I am charming, intelligent and friendly. Extremely friendly.
Whoa. let me rephrase that, men are intrinsically drawn to me. I have no problem attracting friends and/or lovers. I have lots of opportunities for relationships...just not the kind that keep me enthralled or sexually interested.

I am a she-wolf living in a forest full of rabbits and I am sick and tired of hasenpfeffer for hasenpfeffer's sake.

Time is ticking, men. Quit psychoanalysing me, grow some b***s, oops...I mean courage, and put the collar on the wolf...for the love of god!

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Or, maybe... maaaaaybe you are attracting the sorts of men who are attracted to someone with your looks/personality/whatever, but the types of men you want aren't interested in what you have to offer.

When there is a common denominator, it's worth examining what the common denominator is. If you're consistantly attracting men who aren't whatever-enough, It can't just be them. There may be some internal component that might be worth examining and/or adjusting.

For example, for a while I was attracting submissive men so frequently that it became an inside joke - oh look... XYZ guy responded to my personals ad, convinced he'd be the perfect submissive for me. Yay.

Once or twice? No biggie.

Three or four times? Did they all read some handbook that says tall, thin, intellectual redheads are automatically Dommes?

Five or six times? What if something about my presentation is allowing them to see something that isn't there?

At that point I did a bit of work on myself, adjusted my own attitude/approach, and damn if interesting men haven't been coming out of the woodwork, ever since. lol

It's totally possible that you live someplace where dominant men (of your particular persuasion) are rare as hen's teeth. On the opposite side of the spectrum, it could be that what you're looking for, isn't compatible with what you're offering. More likely, you're wanting a niche within a niche, and finding the right person just takes work. There's probably some guy out there grumbling into his beer that he can't find an attractive, strong, confident power-female to save his life, and every woman he meets is totally sub-par.

(I made a funny. Get it? SUB-par? )

CutieMouse said:

Or, maybe... maaaaaybe you are attracting the sorts of men who are attracted to someone with your looks/personality/whatever, but the types of men you want aren't interested in what you have to offer.

When there is a common denominator, it's worth examining what the common denominator is. If you're consistantly attracting men who aren't whatever-enough, It can't just be them. There may be some internal component that might be worth examining and/or adjusting.

For example, for a while I was attracting submissive men so frequently that it became an inside joke - oh look... XYZ guy responded to my personals ad, convinced he'd be the perfect submissive for me. Yay.

Once or twice? No biggie.

Three or four times? Did they all read some handbook that says tall, thin, intellectual redheads are automatically Dommes?

Five or six times? What if something about my presentation is allowing them to see something that isn't there?

At that point I did a bit of work on myself, adjusted my own attitude/approach, and damn if interesting men haven't been coming out of the woodwork, ever since. lol

It's totally possible that you live someplace where dominant men (of your particular persuasion) are rare as hen's teeth. On the opposite side of the spectrum, it could be that what you're looking for, isn't compatible with what you're offering. More likely, you're wanting a niche within a niche, and finding the right person just takes work. There's probably some guy out there grumbling into his beer that he can't find an attractive, strong, confident power-female to save his life, and every woman he meets is totally sub-par.

(I made a funny. Get it? SUB-par? )

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weak. Changed yourself to bait. Congratulations.

Ishmael

valhallacanwait said:

Time is ticking, men. Quit psychoanalysing me, grow some b***s, oops...I mean courage, and put the collar on the wolf...for the love of god!

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Well, then you certainly don't need any advice in here. Go to BDSM Personals or any other advert and state you cause in there. Be precise, blahdiblah and all that.


Good luck.

Ishmael said:

weak. Changed yourself to bait. Congratulations.

Ishmael

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Or, maybe I made it clearer [from the beginning] that I'm not interested in submissive men.

Ishmael said:

weak. Changed yourself to bait. Congratulations.

Ishmael

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Often times if we are misunderstood it is because there is some aspect of how we present ourselves that is inconsistent with our intentions. Changing the intention may amount to compromising who you are. But changing the presentation may be a simple matter of maturing, being respectful of other people and using a little thought to actually bring your presentation into line with your intentions.

Responding to your surroundings is not the same as capitulating. Ignoring your impact on people is not the same as standing up for yourself.

valhallacanwait said:

I almost spit out my treasured Sauvignon Blanc on this one.

One should never assume, because...yadda, yadda, yadda....feel free to chime along: It makes an ass out of u and me.

If anything, SpunThings, I have too many friends! People are intrinsically drawn to me. I am charming, intelligent and friendly. Extremely friendly.
Whoa. let me rephrase that, men are intrinsically drawn to me. I have no problem attracting friends and/or lovers. I have lots of opportunities for relationships...just not the kind that keep me enthralled or sexually interested.

I am a she-wolf living in a forest full of rabbits and I am sick and tired of hasenpfeffer for hasenpfeffer's sake.

Time is ticking, men. Quit psychoanalysing me, grow some b***s, oops...I mean courage, and put the collar on the wolf...for the love of god!

Click to expand...

OK, so I was wrong about you. You don't exactly exude friendliness in this thread though, so you can't fault me for coming to that conclusion based on my few interactions with you.

I won't quite psychoanalyzing you, no matter how much you try to put me down for doing it. It's what I do to everyone, whether I discuss it openly or not. You're the one who put it out there, so you're going to get the gamut of responses.

Anyways, maybe you're just choosing the wrong men then? The only commonality in this situation seems to be you.

Ishmael said:

You made a 'sorta point' that I feel compelled to counter.

Being 'Dom' just is. It's almost automatic. You pick and choose those points you decide to decide upon, the rest you let go of. In the sexual realm you push the boundaries, continuously. But you respect the limits, And if you can't live with those limits, you move on.

A poster previously talked about the three personalities. And the is correct, but I will amplify. We, as humans, live in the sexual realm, the intellectual realm, and the reality realm. Those three realms are compartmentalized for the most part. I think that self-awareness of how you divide your compartments is an essential part of knowing, and being, you.

Ishmael

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I disagree. Being human isn't about having certain traits turned on or off. We are all on spectrums of various personality traits.

CutieMouse said:

Or, maybe I made it clearer [from the beginning] that I'm not interested in submissive men.

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Didn't imply otherwise.

policywank said:

Often times if we are misunderstood it is because there is some aspect of how we present ourselves that is inconsistent with our intentions. Changing the intention may amount to compromising who you are. But changing the presentation may be a simple matter of maturing, being respectful of other people and using a little thought to actually bring your presentation into line with your intentions.

Responding to your surroundings is not the same as capitulating. Ignoring your impact on people is not the same as standing up for yourself.

Click to expand...

SpunThings said:

I disagree. Being human isn't about having certain traits turned on or off. We are all on spectrums of various personality traits.

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As is your right. But we're merely speaking of how you shade those lines of demarcation.............aren't we? We all slide seamlessly from one legend to another. If you can't you'll go insane.

Ishmael

valhallacanwait said:

....how do I attract a male Dom??? Men are nervous about approaching me at the best of times.

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I can't speak directly to the challenges of finding a male Dom, but it seems to me that perhaps your personality is simply a good bullshit filter.

A good Dom has many characteristics in common with good leaders and in fact must be a good leader. There is a pervasive and, in my view, entirely incorrect presumption that leaders (and Doms) must be aggressive and self-certain.

In fact, most good leaders command respect because people trust and believe in them. They use aggression very sparingly and when justified or desirable. Relying on it is a sign of weakness and using it gratuitously to feed their own ego undermines their legitimacy. Once a Dom relationship is established, certain types of aggression may be desirable but that comes later.

Likewise strong leaders are self confident, not always certain that they have the right answer. They are always re-assessing and reviewing circumstances and making sure they serve the needs of those they lead. They are confident in their own abilities - not arrogantly certain that they have all the answers. Likewise a good Dom is aware of and pays close attention to the needs and desires of the Sub rather than regarding them as a possession.

The men who are discouraged by your strength of personality are the posers and frauds. You aren't missing out on the real deal.

But let me pick up on another point. The best and most effective leaders, especially of strong people, typically don't crave power. They are comfortable with it and good at wielding it but they don't feel the need to impose it on anyone. That sort of role play or dynamic may come later in a D's relationship but the real deal you want doesn't genuinely want to impose himself on you with manipulation or bullshit. He wants a willing and enthusiastic Sub. Think of the man or type of man you want. Is he out hitting on women or trying to convince them to be his Sub? Maybe you have to go to him. Look past the guys who are vying for the role and find the quiet man to whom people are naturally deferential and respectful. Then go to him rather than trying to induce him to come to you.

CutieMouse said:

There's probably some guy out there grumbling into his beer that he can't find an attractive, strong, confident power-female to save his life, and every woman he meets is totally sub-par.

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I replace "strong" with "moody", this saves me a lot of hassle.

I tend to have woman-fail at most points in my life if I just set-it-and-forget-it in terms of self presentation to men, so half of what I get will be unattractive barking up the wrong tree and half will be a game worth playing. I know exactly what adjustments I can make if I want to attract a man who's not submissive or at least submissive to me. And I don't. I've pinpointed out what creates bad mojo wherein Dominants perk up at my presence and I don't do it. If I wanted them, I know what I'd do.

I know exactly what to play up when I want to attract the kind of man who will maintain the place I want him in. (Butch, but pliable when pressed.)

If you're that alpha and that extroverted and that good at reading people quickly, this isn't harder for you than it is for me, there's no way it is. So if you really want what you say you want, make the adjustments. You're not betraying yourself, you're stopping excuse-making for being unhappy.

If not, continue communicating what you communicate and continue waiting for someone who's interested in Wolf Wildlife Management. They're not wrapping the block, are they? Hm.

We Dominant types are also busy and in demand. I like a large Dog myself. It doesn't have to act like a feral rescue just to prove it's not dumb.

valhallacanwait said:

....how do I attract a male Dom??? Men are nervous about approaching me at the best of times.

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I should read the thread but fuck it ...I'm gonna launch right in and then read up

If you are attractive and confident why are men nervous of approaching you? Why don't you make it easier? Eye contact, body language, smiles, words, a welcoming phrase, buy him a drink

I mean seriously ...do you think you're in some mills & boon bdsm shtick?

It starts with a relationship, an ability to develop a sense that you trust and care for each other ...so you want a control dynamic...you test the waters and see what develops from that first glance

SlutAddicted said:

I can't speak directly to the challenges of finding a male Dom, but it seems to me that perhaps your personality is simply a good bullshit filter.

A good Dom has many characteristics in common with good leaders and in fact must be a good leader. There is a pervasive and, in my view, entirely incorrect presumption that leaders (and Doms) must be aggressive and self-certain.

In fact, most good leaders command respect because people trust and believe in them. They use aggression very sparingly and when justified or desirable. Relying on it is a sign of weakness and using it gratuitously to feed their own ego undermines their legitimacy. Once a Dom relationship is established, certain types of aggression may be desirable but that comes later.

Likewise strong leaders are self confident, not always certain that they have the right answer. They are always re-assessing and reviewing circumstances and making sure they serve the needs of those they lead. They are confident in their own abilities - not arrogantly certain that they have all the answers. Likewise a good Dom is aware of and pays close attention to the needs and desires of the Sub rather than regarding them as a possession.

The men who are discouraged by your strength of personality are the posers and frauds. You aren't missing out on the real deal.

But let me pick up on another point. The best and most effective leaders, especially of strong people, typically don't crave power. They are comfortable with it and good at wielding it but they don't feel the need to impose it on anyone. That sort of role play or dynamic may come later in a D's relationship but the real deal you want doesn't genuinely want to impose himself on you with manipulation or bullshit. He wants a willing and enthusiastic Sub. Think of the man or type of man you want. Is he out hitting on women or trying to convince them to be his Sub? Maybe you have to go to him. Look past the guys who are vying for the role and find the quiet man to whom people are naturally deferential and respectful. Then go to him rather than trying to induce him to come to you.

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Thank you, SlutAddict! Your response makes a lot of sense to me. Over the past week I have had many PMs and they run the gamut from pushy, in your face 'Hey Baby' type guys to helpful, kind and intelligent men who truly want to know what I think and feel....not how flexible my back is or how tight my ass is (btw: yes, flexible and tight....just sayin').

Unfortunately, I don't live near a big city or even a quaint town so pickings are slim. Perhaps I should put a bow around my neck and tie my naked self to a post in the forest and hope for a pleasant, intelligent Dom-wolf to come to my bleets of woe....

Psychoanalyze that!

SlutAddicted said:

But let me pick up on another point. The best and most effective leaders, especially of strong people, typically don't crave power.

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You totally miss the point that dominant people in the BDSM context derive sexual pleasure from dominance. They crave dominance as much as the vanilla guy craves a blowjob. Just the methods to achieve dominance are different, very much like different guys will try different methods to get a blowjob from his crush.

Second, people are not discouraged by "strength" - how would this work in the online word? The concept of "online strength" is as virtual as the concept of "online punishment". The only strength you can measure online is the strength to not to reply to a troll.

And finally, the question of the day:
If being arrogant is an undesirable trait for a dominant person, why would it be a desirable trait for a submissive and why would you put up with an arrogant submissive if you don't have to?

Primalex said:

I replace "strong" with "moody", this saves me a lot of hassle.

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I laughed and that is not always wrong. I don't see strength in people (men or women) that have to show you that they are strong. I realize that the OP had to mention (her self perception) that she is a strong woman and that (she feels) that it might be off putting to strong men, but that doesn't make it so.

There is a fine line between being a confident person and expending a lt of effort "proving" it.

I cringe at the words "strong," "challenging" and "worth it." Begs the question, what is "it?" If I visualize hoops that I have to jump through I am taking a pass. In my experience, women are submissive more often than not to someone inclined to lead. Submissives are not in short supply.

Netzach said:

I tend to have woman-fail at most points in my life if I just set-it-and-forget-it in terms of self presentation to men, so half of what I get will be unattractive barking up the wrong tree and half will be a game worth playing. I know exactly what adjustments I can make if I want to attract a man who's not submissive or at least submissive to me. And I don't. I've pinpointed out what creates bad mojo wherein Dominants perk up at my presence and I don't do it. If I wanted them, I know what I'd do.

I know exactly what to play up when I want to attract the kind of man who will maintain the place I want him in. (Butch, but pliable when pressed.)

If you're that alpha and that extroverted and that good at reading people quickly, this isn't harder for you than it is for me, there's no way it is. So if you really want what you say you want, make the adjustments. You're not betraying yourself, you're stopping excuse-making for being unhappy.

If not, continue communicating what you communicate and continue waiting for someone who's interested in Wolf Wildlife Management. They're not wrapping the block, are they? Hm.

We Dominant types are also busy and in demand. I like a large Dog myself. It doesn't have to act like a feral rescue just to prove it's not dumb.

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I can't stand dog owners that have dogs that constantly display aggression. Something is wrong with both the dog and the owner.

You raise a very good point, the the OP may want to consider the tenor of her bark. She doesn't need to cower and whimper to display approachability and a submissively friendly posture.

If she is spending a lot of time in "I am a strong woman, dammit" mode I can't see a dominant finding that appealing.

valhallacanwait said:

Thank you, SlutAddict! Your response makes a lot of sense to me. Over the past week I have had many PMs and they run the gamut from pushy, in your face 'Hey Baby' type guys to helpful, kind and intelligent men who truly want to know what I think and feel....not how flexible my back is or how tight my ass is (btw: yes, flexible and tight....just sayin').

Unfortunately, I don't live near a big city or even a quaint town so pickings are slim. Perhaps I should put a bow around my neck and tie my naked self to a post in the forest and hope for a pleasant, intelligent Dom-wolf to come to my bleets of woe....

Psychoanalyze that!

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Not to get into a war of the titans with him as he has a valid point of view that I do not happen to share. My concern was you reached for that lifeline that looks to me like you are seeking confirmation bias. You chose to accept the answer you already sought to confirm your suspicion that the main reason you are not attracting dominants is because they are intimidated by you. Hubris, much?

Plenty of great, dominant men have lots of options. I have no patience for a bratty submissive. Some people love that dynamic. Why do I want to approach and "tame" someone that self-declares she is difficult. Compliance is earned but that doesn't mean anyone I want to pay full price for it.

Somewhere there is a sub reading this and smirking about how I will never know the joy of a submissive as awesome sauce as she, because I won't "work" for it. Don't care. Just as some submissive can groom and coach a great guy into becoming their Christian Grey, it is not the ideal.

Maybe you strike men as the type of woman that accepts little input and no direction, what with being so strong and smart and all. I prefer smart, strong women that wish to be in a submissive role to me. I am not breaking out the lion-tamer gear to make that a reality. I will pass before I put in effort with a woman that prides herself in being a handful.

I know pride and hubris, first-hand. It doesn't help me in my "role" as a dominant either.

Netzach said:

I tend to have woman-fail at most points in my life if I just set-it-and-forget-it in terms of self presentation to men, so half of what I get will be unattractive barking up the wrong tree and half will be a game worth playing. I know exactly what adjustments I can make if I want to attract a man who's not submissive or at least submissive to me. And I don't. I've pinpointed out what creates bad mojo wherein Dominants perk up at my presence and I don't do it. If I wanted them, I know what I'd do.

I know exactly what to play up when I want to attract the kind of man who will maintain the place I want him in. (Butch, but pliable when pressed.)

If you're that alpha and that extroverted and that good at reading people quickly, this isn't harder for you than it is for me, there's no way it is. So if you really want what you say you want, make the adjustments. You're not betraying yourself, you're stopping excuse-making for being unhappy.

If not, continue communicating what you communicate and continue waiting for someone who's interested in Wolf Wildlife Management. They're not wrapping the block, are they? Hm.

We Dominant types are also busy and in demand. I like a large Dog myself. It doesn't have to act like a feral rescue just to prove it's not dumb.

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You cant be more wrong. Real doms ARE they don't adjust or have closets fulla capes.

I'm sure there are armies of lemmings willing to swim out and swamp your boats, Yardley and Primalex.

I will wisely remain on shore, thank you very much.

You are really bad at flirting. Although I appreciate the validation contained in your little jab, I have already explained why I would not be the sort of person you seek.

I took the time to read the entire thread now to see where the above was coming from. Some wondered if this was better suited as a personal ad. It appears that you would like responses from interested parties with comments like "come on on men show some balls and capture this wolf."

As such you have attracted the attention of some men with this thread. You have lamented the fact that you attract men you are not interested in. Cutie Mouse predicted (accurately) that your demeanor would attract some white knights and you said words to the effect that you want a white knight and added the qualifier a strong white knight. This isn't Camelot.

A white knight is not what you seem to think the term is. A white knight is a man with a strong tendency to want to shield women from discomfort and tend to agree with women a lot. A yes-man. There are plenty of women that might well appreciate the solicitous nature of such a man. This is exactly the type of man you are attracting here and in real life and the type of man you are not attracted to.

You have stated that you want a man that enjoys the challenge that you present. How is that going to work if you only respond favorably to men that agree with you?

The above is mostly rhetorical since you have shown consistently that you have little interest in feedback. You do realize that feedback that does not suit you can simply be rejected out of hand without comment?

Since you don't like feedback I am sure you will not want negative feedback. You are coming across to me as extremely defensive and quite certain that the reason you are alone is because of the deficiencies found in everyone else. This does not strike me as strong, confident or attractive.

I would wish you well, but I think that would ring hollow. I wish you some fruitful self-discovery.

Here is a real white knight for you

http://www.ebbemunk.dk/alice/82knight.jpg

kind hearted, well meaning but a mass of contradictions.

1littlegreymouse said:

Here is a real white knight for you

http://www.ebbemunk.dk/alice/82knight.jpg

kind hearted, well meaning but a mass of contradictions.

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Etymology interests me. I never really thought about the term in context of Lewis Caroll's work. Interesting to think about.

JAMESBJOHNSON said:

You cant be more wrong. Real doms ARE they don't adjust or have closets fulla capes.

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I'm right. They don't just smear their shit on walls and say it's art. You can "do you" and not be a fucking idiot out of tune with everyone you meet. They just don't understand, do they, what a great excuse for one's life.

I consider winning deciding what the fuck I want and getting it. Crazy, I know.