Ask a MtF TG a question

I've recently read two reviews for a book called Not Gay: Sex Between Straight White Men (here and here). I haven't read it, and I don't know if it explicitly treats the supposedly-cis-het-male interest in trans women, but it does touch on issues of gay and straight identity, which seems to be a critical point. One reviewer addresses the role of disgust, and how man-on-man sex is somehow acceptable as long as the participants continue to express their distaste for anything gay (and don't, god help them, take any sort of subordinate, 'unmanly', position!). Thus all the jokes about how "It's not gay if you don't push back" or "if you don't kiss" or whatever (which in actuality just serve to circumscribe what's permissible for a straight man vs a gay man). So, while somewhat suspect, I think it still falls within the realm of 'acceptable straight behaviour' - as currently defined by our society - to like cock if it's attached to a woman.

It's interesting what mental contortions people will get themselves into to justify their sexual desires.

stickygirl said:

I keep seeing Lit threads Lit from guys who are "no-way-definitely-not-gay-but-love-dick-and-pussy-and-hot-shemales - wow, yes would love to be pegged by one of those, but not a hairy man just his dick". It takes patience not dive in when, as today on a 'I'm a straight sissy' or whatever thread, someone says "yea, I love those hot MtF TGs", because it's a lot like fingers being dragged down a chalk-board to me.
It is objectification and pretty ignorant, but then of course it's 99% BS and fantasy, so I know that if I take deep breaths and think about the Dalai Lama, I can flip to another thread without making a fool of myself.
But I think I finally get it - it's just fucking isn't it? Fantasy fucking. So who am I to pop their fantasy bubble, if that's what they need to whack off to?

If people have real life questions about trans issues, then they know where to find me. We can even talk about fucking, but only if there are two people in the bed, because the other person is more important than anyone's dick (or pussy).

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It's telling that I've never heard of the women lusting after transmen. There's always been a stigma about guys being gay that operates differently to women being gay. There have always been men who enjoy gay sex, but who don't consider themselves gay and often try to hide it. I remember an article about some support network for straight men who want gay sex. To those who find that extreme, the fantasy transwoman with a cock is a way to have gay sex that's a little less gay. Yes, it's complete fantasy and objectification, and seriously unhealthy for the many transwomen who face the reality of this mistaken fantasy. It is perhaps more than men's fear of being gay and that our labels are too restrictive, but these guys want it both ways, literally.

Gorza said:

It's telling that I've never heard of the women lusting after transmen.

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I don't think Buck Angel is getting a lot of attention from men, but I could be mistaken.

stickygirl said:

I know that if I take deep breaths and think about the Dalai Lama, I can flip to another thread without making a fool of myself.
But I think I finally get it - it's just fucking isn't it? Fantasy fucking.

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You have fantasies about the Dalai Lama? Now that's weird!

haurni said:

I've recently read two reviews for a book called Not Gay: Sex Between Straight White Men (here and here). I haven't read it, and I don't know if it explicitly treats the supposedly-cis-het-male interest in trans women, but it does touch on issues of gay and straight identity, which seems to be a critical point. One reviewer addresses the role of disgust, and how man-on-man sex is somehow acceptable as long as the participants continue to express their distaste for anything gay (and don't, god help them, take any sort of subordinate, 'unmanly', position!). Thus all the jokes about how "It's not gay if you don't push back" or "if you don't kiss" or whatever (which in actuality just serve to circumscribe what's permissible for a straight man vs a gay man). So, while somewhat suspect, I think it still falls within the realm of 'acceptable straight behaviour' - as currently defined by our society - to like cock if it's attached to a woman.

It's interesting what mental contortions people will get themselves into to justify their sexual desires.

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Yes, that's the article I was thinking about. There is something about it that screams 'new wave metrosexuals', almost like artisanal, fairtrade, hipster gayness! It's interesting that the article is specifically about 'white' men, and I'm not entirely sure why. It's odd that many bi men enjoying being on top with a woman but a bottom with a man. Maybe you just can't be a bi man if you're always on top!

Gorza said:

It's interesting that the article is specifically about 'white' men, and I'm not entirely sure why.

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My (admittedly vague) impression is that the black male idea of masculinity is even more rigidly defined. No clue about other ethnicities.

(It also says something that 'white' is considered to be the standard to which all others are related...

haurni said:

My (admittedly vague) impression is that the black male idea of masculinity is even more rigidly defined. No clue about other ethnicities.

(It also says something that 'white' is considered to be the standard to which all others are related...

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There is the African American subculture of the Downlow. It's usually understood as gay men who put on a macho, straight public persona in a homophobic culture.

Gianbattista said:

I don't know how relevant this is, but a conversation Gianbattista and I have sometimes is that I say I would have loved him who ever he was and he says that it would not have happened if I were man because there would have been no attraction and I say 'but NOW that you love me, imagine I became a man and you'd still love ME the essence of ME'. He finds it really hard to envisage this. He has no homophobia what so ever, but the idea of him loving in this way is just not there for him.

I think for me one falls for a person, not the sexual organs. And while we might have a preference for those, even a very determined one, there might be some who challenge that preference. I have loved people not organs. There is most certainly a preference for me, but in truth I don't find any sexual organs to be things of tremendous aesthetic appeal. I like bodies, but sexual organs themselves.....well...they just don't speak to me.

Yep, for me is a connection of people.

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Thank you for sharing this. I can say that I've known a soulmate or two who, if it weren't for their body or mine, might have been sexual partners.

I believe, in a homophobic and transphobic society, we are all rendered homophobic and transphobic. The best of us fight these societal demons within and without. The worst is when these forces turn us to hatred, of self or others. Wasn't there a Scottish cardinal who preached virulently anti-gay sermons but turned out to be in a long-term sexual relationship with a man? Stories like that tell of a world with many ways to meet one's sexual needs while denying one's identity. It makes sense of much of what I've seen and experienced.

Oh good - I thought this would stir up some discussion!

haurni said:

I've recently read two reviews for a book called Not Gay: Sex Between Straight White Men (here . I haven't read it, and I don't know if it explicitly treats the supposedly-cis-het-male interest in trans women, but it does touch on issues of gay and straight identity, which seems to be a critical point. One reviewer addresses the role of disgust, and how man-on-man sex is somehow acceptable as long as the participants continue to express their distaste for anything gay (and don't, god help them, take any sort of subordinate, 'unmanly', position!). So, while somewhat suspect, I think it still falls within the realm of 'acceptable straight behaviour' - as currently defined by our society - to like cock if it's attached to a woman.

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^snipped
The first review raises interesting points:

• that instead of being rubber-stamped as hetero, people should have to declare it
• that declaration should define an identity as well as a sexual orientation or preference...

hmm, sounds like something trans folk are obliged to do!
In today's society, I'm not sure I like the idea of straight men being offered a get-out card as an excuse for their sexual behaviour as per "I was only shagging him - but I am entirely straight" because too many trans women have been beaten up and killed with that same duplicity and cowardice. Perhaps I am over-simplifying what I think is being suggested by a review of a book none of us has read! If the author is hoping that one day prejudice and homophobia will vanish, then she's whistling for the wind. Men have been acting this way for ever: they are driven towards physical sex and are entirely blind to the consequences of the moment.
Thank you for finding that - it sounds an interesting if whimsical read!

Gorza said:

It's telling that I've never heard of the women lusting after transmen.

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Ummm....

Gorza said:

There's always been a stigma about guys being gay that operates differently to women being gay. There have always been men who enjoy gay sex, but who don't consider themselves gay and often try to hide it. I remember an article about some support network for straight men who want gay sex. To those who find that extreme, the fantasy trans woman with a cock is a way to have gay sex that's a little less gay. Yes, it's complete fantasy and objectification, and seriously unhealthy for the many trans women who face the reality of this mistaken fantasy. It is perhaps more than men's fear of being gay and that our labels are too restrictive, but these guys want it both ways, literally.

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As I pointed out to H, fuck now, repent at leisure.
Following on from my earlier post, what irritates me is the assumption that trans women are just as oversexed as men. Some are, but many more are not. Some are in it for the modelling fee; some are prostitutes; some are oversexed kids; most have popped some viagra. What we are not is a quick fuck in an alleyway to relieve an 'irresistible urge' so that he can go about his hetero-normative life as soon as he's zipped his flies - but that is how it is, actually.

Gianbattista said:

I don't know how relevant this is, but a conversation Gianbattista and I have sometimes is that I say I would have loved him who ever he was and he says that it would not have happened if I were man because there would have been no attraction and I say 'but NOW that you love me, imagine I became a man and you'd still love ME the essence of ME'. He finds it really hard to envisage this. He has no homophobia what so ever, but the idea of him loving in this way is just not there for him.

I think for me one falls for a person, not the sexual organs. And while we might have a preference for those, even a very determined one, there might be some who challenge that preference. I have loved people not organs. There is most certainly a preference for me, but in truth I don't find any sexual organs to be things of tremendous aesthetic appeal. I like bodies, but sexual organs themselves.....well...they just don't speak to me.

Yep, for me is a connection of people.

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Good points, but to unravel the initial attraction of two people for each other has been the subject of poets and playwrights for eons! Initial attraction isn't love. Initial attraction is still governed by societal convention as much as it did in the days of Jane Austen, it's just a different set of rules. What woman doesn't check out a guy's shoes and wristwatch? What man doesn't notice a woman's posture and the company she's with? All these markers reveal a persons status, their self-esteem - let alone their availability.
I think I could fall in love with either/any gender. Perhaps it is men who should be pitied because society forces them to conform? .... nah... they created the problem, why should I feel sorry for 'em?!

Stickygirl,

You are wise to stay out of those threads that go on and on about "straight" men denying their actual desires and behaviors. Maybe I will make it a new year's resolution to also stay out of those threads. How did you learn this self control? Is there a 12-step process?

The ray of hope is that I have met some men who are honest about their sexuality and have apparently learned that the whole human is important. A small minority, to be sure. I suppose it does some good to keep talking. Guys can sometimes learn.

Coati

Gorza - don't get me started on the hypocrisy of religion or other institutions devoted to protecting the vulnerable. At least the men that Coati mentions are honest about their fetishes so you know where you stand with them.

G - I'm touched and I don't expect you or anyone else to be conversant with whatever current jargon is used. I used to use an apostrophe on trans* but that has now been frowned on
I would of course expect a friend to regard me simply as a woman, but what about the friend we're meeting? What if they held strong views about transgenderism that you were unaware of until she clocked me? In my position, I have to consider not just my own safety but that of my friends - happily not something that happens too often these days. People are ostracised for having a trans woman girlfriend and I can't think of how many times I have avoided social situations because of my concerns about others who would be present. Of course it was wrong of me to do that: people should get over the whole trans thing. If only it were that simple.

Life is hard on people and change is not something we as humans do well, unless it is change we initiate. Humans have thousands of years of religion telling them that homosexuality is very bad. And if everyone all of a sudden turned homosexual then they would be right. Other than my wife no one knows who i really am. Maybe I am being a coward it is why I believe sticky is one of the most courageous people I know. Back during the Greek and Roman empires society looked on it differently. And maybe we are getting back there but there will always be haters.

Sexual attraction is much different then emotional though and as such we are attracted to who we are. I love the female form in all its various incarnations' it is not the same for guys and no I do not want some hairy ass guy fucking me. But that does not mean there isn't a male form I find titillating.

Gorza said:

I believe, in a homophobic and transphobic society, we are all rendered homophobic and transphobic.

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Yep.

stickygirl said:

In today's society, I'm not sure I like the idea of straight men being offered a get-out card as an excuse for their sexual behaviour as per "I was only shagging him - but I am entirely straight" because too many trans women have been beaten up and killed with that same duplicity and cowardice.

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Ah, the infamous double standard. Where the majority get a pass and the marginalized get persecuted for the exact same behaviours.

coati said:

You are wise to stay out of those threads that go on and on about "straight" men denying their actual desires and behaviors. Maybe I will make it a new year's resolution to also stay out of those threads.

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A good plan!

I hope you don't mind me asking...

How do you learn how to accept and love yourself in a society that is so condescending and hateful of anyone LGBTQ, especially transgender and non-binary people?

Thank you for your post...you are very strong.

LostBabygirl3489 said:

I hope you don't mind me asking...

How do you learn how to accept and love yourself in a society that is so condescending and hateful of anyone LGBTQ, especially transgender and non-binary people?

Thank you for your post...you are very strong.

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I'm glad you asked and that's not an easy question to answer. I suppose self esteem is something you adsorb as a child from your family: your mother is most important, then father and siblings. Or maybe, as science keeps finding, there is something in our stars/genes? I'll go with parents for now because that makes the most sense to me. If a child is surrounded by a loving environment that it can explore safely then they develop confidence, which is reinforced by its parents. The child feels happy and learns it's ok to make mistakes or to have moods, because that parental love is always there for them, no matter what.
I think unless those formative months and years are correct, a child plays catch up with their emotions for the rest of their life. But how many kids miss out on that early love? I'm not blaming anyone, but circumstances intrude into the lives of parents: maybe they are stressed or don't have enough time and energy to give? Anyways, I believe it's that early love that provides us with a framework that we grow into.
( I've spent a few days with my cousins babies so like suddenly I'm an expert! )

The rest of the picture - of how family, friends, society treats LGBTQ or any child that is somehow 'different' is more predictable isn't it? We read tragic stories in the media every day. Leelah Acorn was a smart girl, very self-aware, articulate, sensitive, so I'd guess her early years were good. Then, when she came out as trans, her every step was chopped off at the knees: her family denied her and there was no outside help to which she could turn. So she took a decision to end her life and based on what she knew at the time, it was a logical choice. Whoever planted the idea of suicide in her head I wonder? We can only speculate.

There is so much resentment today when society is asked to be inclusive of its members who are considered different. When important decisions of equality are made by government, individuals immediately turn it into an emotional and personal crusade based on fear and ignorance. Panicking parents think that one trans girl in their school will somehow infect and "pervert" their own in much the same way that those West African populations at first acted irrationally in dealing with Ebola.

So to get back to your original question, I don't think how I have learnt to love myself is any different to non-LGBTQ people. Sure I have had different problems to deal with and perhaps they come in with greater frequency than cis-gender folk, but to set myself up as a victim is self-defeating.

Thanks again for allowing me to ramble!

haurni said:

I've recently read two reviews for a book called Not Gay: Sex Between Straight White Men (here and here). I haven't read it, and I don't know if it explicitly treats the supposedly-cis-het-male interest in trans women, but it does touch on issues of gay and straight identity, which seems to be a critical point. One reviewer addresses the role of disgust, and how man-on-man sex is somehow acceptable as long as the participants continue to express their distaste for anything gay (and don't, god help them, take any sort of subordinate, 'unmanly', position!).

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There's a scene in "Angels In America" where Roy Cohn, a fearsome figure in right-wing US politics (who built his career on persecuting homosexuals, among others) is diagnosed with AIDS:

Roy Cohn: Your problem, Henry, is that you are hung up on words. On labels. "Gay", "homosexual", "lesbian"; you think they tell you who a person sleeps with, but they don't tell you that. Like all labels, they refer to one thing and one thing only: Where does a person so identified fit in the food chain? In the pecking order. Not ideology or sexual taste, but something much simpler — clout. Who owes me favors. Not who I fuck or who fucks me, but who will pick up the phone when I call. To someone who doesn't understand this, homosexual is what I am because I sleep with men, but this is wrong. Homosexuals are not men who sleep with other men. Homosexuals are men who, in 15 years of trying, can't get a pissant anti-discrimination bill through City Council. They are men who know nobody, and who nobody knows. Now, Henry, does that sound like me?

Henry: No.

Roy Cohn: No. I have clout. Lots. I pick up that phone, dial 15 numbers, and guess who's on the other end of the line? In under five minutes, Henry.

Henry: The President.

Roy Cohn: Better — his wife.

Henry: I'm impressed.

Roy Cohn: I don't want you to be impressed, Henry — I want you to understand. This is not sophistry, and this is not hypocrisy. This is reality. I have sex with men; but, unlike nearly every other man of which this is true, I bring the guy I'm screwing to Washington, and President Reagan smiles at us and shakes his hand. Because what I am is defined entirely by who I am. Roy Cohn is not a homosexual. Roy Cohn is a heterosexual man who fucks around with guys.

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Interesting post Brambles, and it makes me question the labels=victim trope. On my few sorties into the GB I've been accused of being a victim simply because I chose to speak from a trans POV. It was a trans related topic. So, in the eyes of trolls everywhere, how can I speak up with being slammed for playing a 'victim'?!

Hey, transman here. How do you feel about nonbinary/genderfluidity/genderqueer?

rafea118 said:

Hey, transman here. How do you feel about nonbinary/genderfluidity/genderqueer?

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To answer you directly - totally cool

Some suggest that, because trans women frequently wish to transition simply from male to female, they are reinforcing the binary, but that is a huge and entirely inappropriate assumption. Despite wishing to be considered a woman, I know that I can never have a body of a cis-woman and all that goes with it. I know that I started with a male body, but that doesn't make me less of a woman - it makes me a different woman to most. I know that most of my chromosomes are XY, but like, so fucking what?! After all, how often in the street do we look at people and say "wow, look at those chromosomes" or "check out that penis" or "Love that Bachelor of Science" ? These are not markers - they do not define us to the public at large. Instead we use man, female, boy, girl, baby with pink bonnet, old, young... ( notice I slipped in baby with pink bonnet? Boy or girl? Is pink a marker? Sure it is )

Being non-binary is tough because you might suffer permanently from dysphoria, whilst gender fluid might mean you've come to accept a loosely definition of your gender and perhaps how you present yourself to the world. If people find it awkward to define you at a checkout "Thank you (sir/madam) human being" then how much tougher is it being handed your gender with your change?

So, how do you feel about it Rafea? Come on and lets discuss!

ETA I bumped into another trans man here recently - have you two met yet?

stickygirl said:

Interesting post Brambles, and it makes me question the labels=victim trope. On my few sorties into the GB I've been accused of being a victim simply because I chose to speak from a trans POV. It was a trans related topic. So, in the eyes of trolls everywhere, how can I speak up with being slammed for playing a 'victim'?!

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Trolls gonna troll. If it's not that, they'll find some other excuse to slam you. The only advice I can give there is to distinguish between good-faith discussions where people are actually interested in learning things (& where your background may give a valuable perspective) and bad-faith "discussions" that are just about point-scoring.

Authentic picture of me: https://xkcd.com/386/

Gianbattista said:

Fwiw, I miss bramble thorns posts at my 'lit home' too, they were words, whether in agreed or not, I felt were rational. I hope life is good for you Bramblethorn.

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Oh, thank you! It's been a rough year and still some stresses in my life, but good stuff too. I may actually get a story written and posted some time soon, after a bit of a drought last year.

LostBabygirl3489 said:

I hope you don't mind me asking...

How do you learn how to accept and love yourself in a society that is so condescending and hateful of anyone LGBTQ, especially transgender and non-binary people?

Thank you for your post...you are very strong.

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Sadly I think that in the US you have a much tougher time than in the UK. Perhaps the best way to go forward is to connect with others who are in the same situation as yourself, and with mutual support, love and respect, as a group, you can achieve the the self love and acceptance within your own soul as you no longer feel isolated, alone or just surrounded by hatred.
Times and attitudes are changing, since my early days being out in the 70s, there has been a massive shift and ultimately it is unstoppable.

Just remember you are not alone, that you do matter and that sooner or later, you will become the person you want to be.

Happy new year sticky.

I agree that the US is not LGBT friendly. Not everywhere really but there are many areas. Sometimes I think it is a backlash to who is the most visible fighters for the rights.

Love you sticky hope 2016 has great things in store for you.