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The difference between a Dominant male and a pushy male.

Lilvixen.....I agree with the whole ethos of your post. I haven't ever had a Ds relationship. A lot of the BDSM play aspects look interesting and I have played online in some of those activities.

I do however think that being dominant and having control can lead to abuse if the Dom is too selfish to care about the subs hard limits. There is a point where things can become blurred and then it could stop being sex between consenting adults and it's abuse.

A red flag for me is ultimatums such as " you would do as you're told for me or you're not a sub" I have mentioned this in other threads too.

Being in healthy relationship whether Ds or not is to respect boundaries and hard limits......if people don't respect those they have selfish personalities which could lead to an abusive relationship.

Sam xx
 
xxxSubSamxxx said:
A red flag for me is ultimatums such as " you would do as you're told for me or you're not a sub" I have mentioned this in other threads too.

Sam xx
Click to expand...

To me that seems very much like saying "if you are to pushy, you are not a dominant".
 
IrisAlthea said:
To me that seems very much like saying "if you are to pushy, you are not a dominant".
Click to expand...

There is minimal risk a sub can cross the line to being abusive to a Dom.

This forum is good for people exploring BDSM and understanding the dangers and the risks of harm and abuse. To give ultimatums is manipulation in a negative way.....to be seductive is changing a person's own ideals.......one way can lead to abuse the other can lead to happiness and contentment.

People need to be clear what is abusive and unacceptable behaviour. If you're being hurt or hurting others you need to stop what you're doing and understand how to behave appropriately.

Sam xx
 
IrisAlthea said:
Why would BDSM be the place for romanticizing, idealizing fantasies?
Click to expand...

Well, what I mean is that in the BDSM world, sometimes it's kind of hard to tell whether someone is just talking about their fantasy or what they really do in reality. If somebody says "I want a dom to beat me up and break the bones of my arms and my legs until I'm orgasming", then he/she is probably talking about fantasy, however it could be something that they really want/do in reality.

I don't think that OP is really any different than making a list of "Boyfriends should...". We don't say something like, "Not ALL boyfriends do that/are like that" or "That's not the definition of a boyfriend". But we should be careful to not idealize them too much and hold unrealistic expectations of boyfriends.

xxxSubSamxxx said:
There is minimal risk a sub can cross the line to being abusive to a Dom.

This forum is good for people exploring BDSM and understanding the dangers and the risks of harm and abuse. To give ultimatums is manipulation in a negative way.....to be seductive is changing a person's own ideals.......one way can lead to abuse the other can lead to happiness and contentment.

People need to be clear what is abusive and unacceptable behaviour. If you're being hurt or hurting others you need to stop what you're doing and understand how to behave appropriately.
Click to expand...

It's an interesting topic about BDSM. And that is... when we bring ethics and morality into BDSM.

Looking from the outside, BDSM probably looks like a bunch of fucked up shit. But what's really happening is (consenting) people acting out their fantasies in a controlled environment. That requires trust, common sense and competence, especially on the part of the dominant. I'd suppose, that is the true and meaningful difference between a "dominant" and a "pushy male". A pushy male is only concerned about his own needs, and therefore potentially dangerous and harmful to the submissive. When we are talking about not causing harm to either parties, then we can't say that the definition of a "dominant" is simply a matter of opinion, perspective or compatibility. What we are concerned of is the behavior of a dominant that will or will not cause any harm to the submissive.
 
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DudeA said:
Well, what I mean is that in the BDSM world, sometimes it's kind of hard to tell whether someone is just talking about their fantasy or what they really do in reality. If somebody says "I want a dom to beat me up and break the bones of my arms and my legs until I'm orgasming", then he/she is probably talking about fantasy, however it could be something that they really want/do in reality.

I don't think that OP is really any different than making a list of "Boyfriends should...". We don't say something like, "Not ALL boyfriends do that/are like that" or "That's not the definition of a boyfriend". But we should be careful to not idealize them too much and hold unrealistic expectations of boyfriends.



It's an interesting topic about BDSM. And that is... when we bring ethics and morality into BDSM.

Looking from the outside, BDSM probably looks like a bunch of fucked up shit. But what's really happening is (consenting) people acting out their fantasies in a controlled environment. That requires trust, common sense and competence, especially on the part of the dominant. I'd suppose, that is the true and meaningful difference between a "dominant" and a "pushy male". A pushy male is only concerned about his own needs, and therefore potentially dangerous and harmful to the submissive. When we are talking about not causing harm to either parties, then we can't say that the definition of a "dominant" is simply a matter of opinion, perspective or compatibility. What we are concerned of is the behavior of a dominant that will or will not cause any harm to the submissive.
Click to expand...

Yes this is true. Each individual that experiments with Ds....should know what abuse is and should not accept it as BDSM. If someone is being abused both the perpetrator and victim need to acknowledge this stops being sex between consenting adults.

A Ds relationship can result this way if a Dom in the beginning is too pushy. Likewise a vanilla relationship can develop this way to if one person doesn't have self respect and the other doesn't have respect for their partner.

Sam xx
 
After reading so some of the post this morning.
It seems must have completely worded my most wrong for most readers.

If you discuses boundaries and hard limits with someone the should be respected.
They don't have the right to go past agreed hard limits or make you feel you there is something wrong with you for not doing it.

There is a difference in Dominance vs a pushy bully.

At the same time I do agree there is a time that a Dom should push but it should always be done with respect to the submissive feelings, NO matter the dynamics of a relationship.


thank you every one for all your comments.
 
xxxSubSamxxx said:
Lilvixen.....I agree with the whole ethos of your post. I haven't ever had a Ds relationship. A lot of the BDSM play aspects look interesting and I have played online in some of those activities.

I do however think that being dominant and having control can lead to abuse if the Dom is too selfish to care about the subs hard limits. There is a point where things can become blurred and then it could stop being sex between consenting adults and it's abuse.

A red flag for me is ultimatums such as " you would do as you're told for me or you're not a sub" I have mentioned this in other threads too.

Being in healthy relationship whether Ds or not is to respect boundaries and hard limits......if people don't respect those they have selfish personalities which could lead to an abusive relationship.

Sam xx
Click to expand...


Thank you, yes respect of boundaries and hard limits should be respected. I am not saying they should never be pushed but always respected.
 
IrisAlthea said:
To me that seems very much like saying "if you are to pushy, you are not a dominant".
Click to expand...



Hello IsrisAlthea, I am not saying that a Dom cant push but he should respect.
In any dynamic of any relationship you have to have respect of each others feelings.

To push someone to be better or to overcome things is a not at all what my post was about.
It was not meant to be the whole list of the dos and donts...
 
Gianbattista said:
Hi. :). Two people are not 'everyone', though you see they hold by far the majority view point. The grouping, in my view, was a little preemptive.



I certainly get a little hung up, :eek::), but I don't try to force my feelings on others, and find the thoughts of others, even when they are not mine, can help me frame and challenge my own position, maybe develop it or move it forward or turn it a little. Those times are exciting for me!



I agree with this. I'd probably submit you don't need to criticise it at all most times, merely counter it. Sometimes a critism is really a very sensible as well as safe option.



Sometimes it's worth vehemently disagreeing, as others have pointed out, some come here for guidance and information in different areas. If it were a post on a practical application and very unsafe practices were being recommended with no caveat and no one said any thing it would be remiss.



the bit I bolded is something I fail at. :). I think we all do sometimes. I think most here agree the 'true dom' is a flawed concept.

Lilvixen a replacement of 'a' Dom, to 'my' or 'my ideal' might have made the subject different. :rose::rose:

Generally it can be a positive place, I have learnt much here, from special people. They are wise. :)
Click to expand...



I agree, my thought would have been read differently if I had "a replacement of 'a' Dom, to 'my' or 'my ideal' might have made the subject different."
thank you for your comment and views.
 
Lol, I feel like this thread has gone massively off-topic... well it's still on-topic in some ways... but still. Sorry about that...

I do understand the appeal and the fantasy-aspect of saying "true" doms/subs or "all doms/subs are like this or should be like this"... which may annoy some people, but personally, I don't really care or mind... I understand that it's mostly just their fantasy talking of an ideal.
 
DudeA said:
Well, what I mean is that in the BDSM world, sometimes it's kind of hard to tell whether someone is just talking about their fantasy or what they really do in reality. If somebody says "I want a dom to beat me up and break the bones of my arms and my legs until I'm orgasming", then he/she is probably talking about fantasy, however it could be something that they really want/do in reality.

I don't think that OP is really any different than making a list of "Boyfriends should...". We don't say something like, "Not ALL boyfriends do that/are like that" or "That's not the definition of a boyfriend". But we should be careful to not idealize them too much and hold unrealistic expectations of boyfriends.



It's an interesting topic about BDSM. And that is... when we bring ethics and morality into BDSM.

Looking from the outside, BDSM probably looks like a bunch of fucked up shit. But what's really happening is (consenting) people acting out their fantasies in a controlled environment. That requires trust, common sense and competence, especially on the part of the dominant. I'd suppose, that is the true and meaningful difference between a "dominant" and a "pushy male". A pushy male is only concerned about his own needs, and therefore potentially dangerous and harmful to the submissive. When we are talking about not causing harm to either parties, then we can't say that the definition of a "dominant" is simply a matter of opinion, perspective or compatibility. What we are concerned of is the behavior of a dominant that will or will not cause any harm to the submissive.
Click to expand...

This makes as much sense as defining a husband or a wife as someone who will act morally and competently in a way that never harms their spouse.

BDSM relationships can be just as lousy and abusive as any other relationship. Doesn't make them less BDSM or less relationship. It just means that they are lousy and/or abusive.
 
xxxSubSamxxx said:
There is minimal risk a sub can cross the line to being abusive to a Dom.

This forum is good for people exploring BDSM and understanding the dangers and the risks of harm and abuse. To give ultimatums is manipulation in a negative way.....to be seductive is changing a person's own ideals.......one way can lead to abuse the other can lead to happiness and contentment.

People need to be clear what is abusive and unacceptable behaviour. If you're being hurt or hurting others you need to stop what you're doing and understand how to behave appropriately.

Sam xx
Click to expand...

Why would dominants be immune to abuse from submissives?
Dominants are people and people are vulnerable in relationships.
The opinions of others aren't always easy to brush off, especially if they come from someone you value or if you are a bit new and insecure in a relationship or a situation.
Submissives can be manipulative as well.

Using ultimatums is totally reasonable at times.
We are all entitled to say "I want/don't want this in my relationship and if you can't comply, we can't be in a relationship with each other".
Sometimes an ultimatum is just that, information about compatibility.

Can ultimatums be used in a manipulative way? Of course, but the thing is that seduction can be just as manipulative.
The reason many people have a hard time to get out of abusive relationships in general, is that the have slowly been led to believe that they are not worth any better for example.





lilvixen2016 said:
Hello IsrisAlthea, I am not saying that a Dom cant push but he should respect.
In any dynamic of any relationship you have to have respect of each others feelings.

To push someone to be better or to overcome things is a not at all what my post was about.
It was not meant to be the whole list of the dos and donts...
Click to expand...

My problem was with this part of your OP:
"There are many many things that distinguish a Dominant male from pushy male.
Please feel free to share the ones that mean the most to you."

To me, that's a false choise.

If you would have written that people are entitled to have limits they don't want pushed and that a base of respect is a good thing in a relationship, I wouldn't have protested.
 
Submissives absolutely CAN be abusive. Just like women can abuse their male partners, and adult children can abuse their parents or grandparents. I am all for having a discussion that helps people distinguish abuse from a healthy power exchange relationship. The problem is that the original post did not send that message to me. I am not new to this, and in a very happy healthy relationship, so I am not at risk of being in an abusive relationship. However, other new people reading this may have gotten the same message I did. That is why I felt the need to jump in. If I and others who disagreed with the initial post hadn't spoken up, the discussion would not have reached the more nuanced and helpful discussion that it has.

In the end, if you don't feel good about the behavior of your partner, you don't need a bunch of people on the internet, or some list about pushy vs. dominant men to make it ok to stand up for yourself that there's a problem. Learning to trust your gut, abd feel confident to stick to what's important to you despite choosing a relationship orientation that involves giving up authority will be much more useful to you.
 
IrisAlthea said:
Why would dominants be immune to abuse from submissives?
Dominants are people and people are vulnerable in relationships.
The opinions of others aren't always easy to brush off, especially if they come from someone you value or if you are a bit new and insecure in a relationship or a situation.
Submissives can be manipulative as well.

Using ultimatums is totally reasonable at times.
We are all entitled to say "I want/don't want this in my relationship and if you can't comply, we can't be in a relationship with each other".
Sometimes an ultimatum is just that, information about compatibility.

Can ultimatums be used in a manipulative way? Of course, but the thing is that seduction can be just as manipulative.
The reason many people have a hard time to get out of abusive relationships in general, is that the have slowly been led to believe that they are not worth any better for example.







My problem was with this part of your OP:
"There are many many things that distinguish a Dominant male from pushy male.
Please feel free to share the ones that mean the most to you."

To me, that's a false choise.

If you would have written that people are entitled to have limits they don't want pushed and that a base of respect is a good thing in a relationship, I wouldn't have protested.
Click to expand...

I agree 100% with this.
 
I agree 100%. I am not saying that everyone should subscribe to that but I would ecstatic to have that kind of dynamic.
 
SpunThings said:
Submissives absolutely CAN be abusive. Just like women can abuse their male partners, and adult children can abuse their parents or grandparents. I am all for having a discussion that helps people distinguish abuse from a healthy power exchange relationship. The problem is that the original post did not send that message to me. I am not new to this, and in a very happy healthy relationship, so I am not at risk of being in an abusive relationship. However, other new people reading this may have gotten the same message I did. That is why I felt the need to jump in. If I and others who disagreed with the initial post hadn't spoken up, the discussion would not have reached the more nuanced and helpful discussion that it has.

In the end, if you don't feel good about the behavior of your partner, you don't need a bunch of people on the internet, or some list about pushy vs. dominant men to make it ok to stand up for yourself that there's a problem. Learning to trust your gut, abd feel confident to stick to what's important to you despite choosing a relationship orientation that involves giving up authority will be much more useful to you.
Click to expand...

This pretty much sums up my thoughts on the matter, along with my opinion that these sorts of lists are really boring, and are usually posted by people with a lot of cat pictures and Fabio-style memes on their facebook profile.
 
Well... I don't even know what people are talking about anymore. I just think that people are taking this too seriously or nitpicking, while they're not taking seriously enough about things that deserve more attention.

IrisAlthea said:
BDSM relationships can be just as lousy and abusive as any other relationship. Doesn't make them less BDSM or less relationship. It just means that they are lousy and/or abusive.
Click to expand...

Yes... but it shouldn't be abusive, because we have at least the pretense that BDSM has anything to do with "Safe, Sane and Consensual"... So if it becomes abusive... then it should stop.

As for submissives being abusive, yes that can happen, but obviously in general submissives are going to be in a much more vulnerable position than dominants.

As for "I like pushy" "I like dominants to be pushy, what's the big deal?", well, that really depends on what you mean by "pushy". I got the feeling that OP meant that as in some sort of an inconsiderate jerk who uses the label "dominant" to abuse unsuspecting victims.
 
DudeA said:
Well... I don't even know what people are talking about anymore. I just think that people are taking this too seriously or nitpicking, while they're not taking seriously enough about things that deserve more attention.



Yes... but it shouldn't be abusive, because we have at least the pretense that BDSM has anything to do with "Safe, Sane and Consensual"... So if it becomes abusive... then it should stop.

As for submissives being abusive, yes that can happen, but obviously in general submissives are going to be in a much more vulnerable position than dominants.

As for "I like pushy" "I like dominants to be pushy, what's the big deal?", well, that really depends on what you mean by "pushy". I got the feeling that OP meant that as in some sort of an inconsiderate jerk who uses the label "dominant" to abuse unsuspecting victims.
Click to expand...

Yes, you are missing the point.

In short, there is an overlap in the venn diagram between dom and inconsiderate jerk.

If it becomes abusive it should stop is hardly exclusive to BDSM.
If your dom becomes abusive, it's a good idea to make them not your dom. It does not mean that they are not a dominant.

Why would submissives be more vulnerable to abuse than dominants?
 
xxxSubSamxxx said:
People need to be clear what is abusive and unacceptable behaviour.
Click to expand...

Ooookay. Hm.

Let me add some reality:

Woman A loves rough hard sex, but has terrible self-esteem.
Woman B loves degradation, but was sexually abused as child.

The humiliation and degradation that woman B craves would completely and utterly destroy woman A, while tieing up woman B and turning her into a helpless fuckdoll would trigger her issues and earn her another session with the shrink.

And now you want to teach people what is wrong and what is right in a universal checklist of "Do's" and "Don'ts"?


I think it's completely fine when a "True Love Waits" follower decides to wait for her white knight. But please, don't make a checklist of how sex should be and if you have to do this as virgin, then at least don't post it on a swinger board.
 
IrisAlthea said:
Yes, you are missing the point.

In short, there is an overlap in the venn diagram between dom and inconsiderate jerk.

If it becomes abusive it should stop is hardly exclusive to BDSM.
If your dom becomes abusive, it's a good idea to make them not your dom. It does not mean that they are not a dominant.

Why would submissives be more vulnerable to abuse than dominants?
Click to expand...

Well, again, that really depends on how you define "dominant". Since we're talking about "dominant" in a BDSM context, we go by the BDSM definition. And I would define it as someone who is competent enough to let them play out their fantasies in a safe, controlled environment. That person should obviously not be abusive, abuse his/her power or abuse the sub, ideally anyway.

So, I think that this is an interesting discussion where we bring ethics into BDSM, which is totally not "sexy", but might be a good thing to discuss about.

Well, by the simple nature that dominant is going to have more power over the submissive, since the submissive is giving up his/her power over to the dominant.
 
DudeA said:
Well, again, that really depends on how you define "dominant". Since we're talking about "dominant" in a BDSM context, we go by the BDSM definition. And I would define it as someone who is competent enough to let them play out their fantasies in a safe, controlled environment. That person should obviously not be abusive, abuse his/her power or abuse the sub, ideally anyway.

So, I think that this is an interesting discussion where we bring ethics into BDSM, which is totally not "sexy", but might be a good thing to discuss about.

Well, by the simple nature that dominant is going to have more power over the submissive, since the submissive is giving up his/her power over to the dominant.
Click to expand...

Dude, you can't have it both ways. You can't say we'll go by the standard BDSM definition and then switch to your own. Besides, there really is no standard definition of a dominant. That you have one in your head that includes being ethical is a good thing, but that's neither standard one universal.
 
The only universal I've found for BDSM dominant is someone who identifies as a dominant, and wants the authority end of power exchange in a relationship. That's it.
 
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