You know, I'm pretty sick and fucking tired of "treading water".

[JazzManJim]

I'm just wondering who else might be.

Don't you get tired of hearing, "Just wait. It'll pass", while all the time watching the assholes and the petty egos and the trolls and the shit-stirrers foul the sandbox? Meanwhile you wait on the side and hope they don't fill it with too much shit that folks won't want to play in it after they're done?

I'm pretty tired of hearing that now. I tried that once - took a powder - and was told by a lot of folks that the bullshit would pass. It hasn't. If anything, it's gotten worse. It's branched out. It's engulfed people who have otherwise been completely wonderful and warm-hearted people and driven them to act in ways that have been completely out of character.

Aren't you tired of it yet? Yeah? Then what're you going to do about it? I ask this because, well, I gave it a shot. I tried to stop it. I tried to jump in the way and make a statement I thought would help the thinking people to actually think.

I failed.

So now it's your turn.

And don't talk to me about cycles and "treading water". I don't want to hear that weak-ass argument. It's a cop-out. Lots of stuff if cyclical. That doesn't mean we have to play ostrich and take it. We jump in and we give it our best shot to change it. You and I both know that this place is what we, and every one else, make of it. So let's cut the passive shit and make it something we want. I've shot my wad. Now it's your turn.

Unless, the way things are now is what we want. In that case, let me know so I can find some other place to be.

 

[Tyrael]

No, I can't say I'm "tired" of it, it's just a fact of life. There is no place on the net or in the world that does not contain a few of the instigators you speak of.

It's always gonna happen.

Read here that I'm not talking about heated discussions or lively debates but just being a nasty little shit just to be a nasty little shit.

What really can be done about it?

 

[Cherry]

~ changing the subject ~

How's the landlord situation coming, Jim? Did you have any luck bartering for more time and your damage deposit return? Don't forget to check the evicition notice rights for your area, that were mentioned in your other post.

You know, sometimes ... things are a blessing in disguise ... a catalyst for better outcomes. Every once in a while you need a good thwap in the back of the head, to realize and appreciate all of the goodness that doesn't always get as much attention.

Count your blessings ... and the rest should figure itself out in the fullness of time.

 

[ToddHwrd]

Jimmy I was just messing with you man, I wasn't telling you to just sit there and take it buddy!! If you need to, say what's on your mind and get it off your chest. Take my word for it, don't hold it inside...........

 

[MissTaken]

Sick of treading water????


Come and tread naked in my pool!





Awww smile, Jimmy!

You are made of the right stuff!

 

[sch00lteacher]

Hoo Yeah.

I am sick of it too.

I ain't gonna tread water.

I am not going to leave.

I fight back now. It causes grief, but what the hell. I think most of us are sick of it. If we all start telling the few to fuck off and go away. If we stop feeding their egos and threads, maybe they will.

What is a good way to fight back? Ignore everything they post? Pretend that they do not exist? Could be one way.

Attack? They seem to enjoy that.

I am open to ideas.

I am ready to join up with others. What do we do? We can't just sit back and let the status quo continue...



http://home.highway.ne.jp/flower/netiquette/angry.gif

 

[sch00lteacher]

P.S.

Thanks Jazzman. Good post.

 

[Tyrael]

I had thought the thread to be hijacked there a sec.

Hey teacher, what really can be done about it?

You know you don't have to care what people post here. Someone said in another post that you aren't expected to get along with everyone that posts here. It's not a bad thing to want to be around people who make you feel warm and fuzzy and to turn a deaf ear to those who would like to see you sad or hurt emotionally.

Why can't we let the status quo continue? Do you think that the shit stirrers are going to read this post and look up into the sky and have a vision of a flying pig that tells them to be nice and then actually do it?

Nothing is going to change til the trolls and flamers decide that they don't want to do that anymore.

 

[lavender]

 

[lavender]

 

[JazzManJim]

Hoo Yeah.

I am sick of it too.

I ain't gonna tread water.

I am not going to leave.

I fight back now. It causes grief, but what the hell. I think most of us are sick of it. If we all start telling the few to fuck off and go away. If we stop feeding their egos and threads, maybe they will.

The only suggestions I have are ones that others have made. But, I think they bear repeating, over and over and over again until the people who have shown themselves in the past to be pretty smart finally get with the program.

Number 1 - Don't play with trolls. If someone posts "Unregistered", they get ignored. I don't care if they call you and your Mamma the worst name in the world., I don't care if they post the proof to the Grand Unification Theory. They get ignored. Period.

Number 2 - Debate is okay. Dissent is okay. Flame attacks and ad hominem attacks are not okay. When this happens, it gets ignored, as does the person who psoted it. They just crossed a line and they can't play until they get back on the civilized side of the line.

Number 3 - Attack threads get nothing. No reads. No responses. If you see a response, and you know the person knows better, gently remind them that we don't play that game here any more.

Number 4 - Play is fine. Serious discussion is fine. If someone does one and not the other, they're fine too. Leave them alone.

Number 5 - No one is above a hug. No one.

Number 6 - If you're being mean just to be mean, you can't play. We don't like meanness for its own sake. We don't tolerate it.

Number 7 - If you show up and you're "too cool for school", we're not going to play with you either. Confidence we like, arrogance we don't.

Number 8 - This is a spinoff to Number 2, but I think it bears its own point. It's fine to call a person's opinion stupid. It's not fine to call the person stupid. And, on the other hand, just because someone has called your opinion stupid doesn't mean they have called you stupid. You are not your opinions. If you feel strongly enough to get insulted, respond by defending your opinion. Bring evidence. Bring learned quotes. Prove that you have a good point.

Number 9 - Insulting a like or dislike you have is not the same as insulting you.

How's that for a start?

 

[sch00lteacher]

Tyrael if they left people alone and stayed off in their own little butt kissing area I wouldn't care. It won't be long however before they enter this thread and start their shit.

Every thread you try to do something in they come to. Always with a wiseassed comment, always with negative energy. This isn't a knock, you know I do like you, but you haven't been here when things haven't been like this. Sometimes the board is actually fun to come to.

I don't care about guys like riff, he is fun in his own way. I like that kind of stirring. He is just one example of a good asshole.

It is the clique of evil that I am tired of. Don't know who they are? Wait. Like I said, they will be in here before long. They will sniff it out, and come in attacking. They will think we are talking about them, and guess what, WE ARE!

Someone said in another post that you aren't expected to get along with everyone that posts here.

I don't expect too. But I have the choice to enter the threads that they want to fuck around in, and I don't. Why can't I have the choice to keep them away from threads they don't belong in?

I'm not talking about 'shit stirrers' I am talking about assholes. There is a big difference.

Rick Deville does not enter into other people's theads and make an ass out of himself. If you enter into one of his threads, expect to get fucked with. That is just fine by me.

 

[lavender]

 

[lavender]

 

[JazzManJim]

You have started as many threads to moan about the negativity as there are threads that are negative.

I disagree.

But I'm glad to see in your follow-up post that you're doing something about it, too. That's a good thing.

 

[Tyrael]

I'm just used to the boards I go to having assholes on them. They are a part of life.

It's just that here unlike the places I mod at there are no punishments for people who just come here to make people feel like dirt and the like. Well there is one punishment - people won't like you, but do you really think someone who comes here for the sole purpose of being a nasty little fucker is going to care what you think about him? In truth, they are going to get off on all the attention they are getting - good and bad attention is still attention.

All that we can do is ignore them. Sorry I don't have some grand master plan but that's what it ultimately boils down to.

I didn't come here to change the way people act or think. I can here to have fun. Fun to me is chatting it up with you all and posting manga. However, some people's fun is being a nasty little shit and spouting off insults and putdowns everytime they open their rather large mouth.

At the end of the day...who cares?

 

[JazzManJim]

Okay, this particular thread is mine, so I'm blowing the whistle.

Foul.

This isn't about individual people. It's not even about a clique, real or perceived. That, as far as I'm concerned here in this thread, is irrelevant.

This is about behaviors that most of us can agree that we dislike very much and how to do our best to make sure these behaviors don't find purchase and aren't encouraged.

Let's stay to that, please?

 

[sch00lteacher]

The only suggestions I have are ones that others have made. But, I think they bear repeating, over and over and over again until the people who have shown themselves in the past to be pretty smart finally get with the program.

Number 1 - Don't play with trolls. If someone posts "Unregistered", they get ignored. I don't care if they call you and your Mamma the worst name in the world., I don't care if they post the proof to the Grand Unification Theory. They get ignored. Period. Agreed. Good sound theory. They should get tired of it after awhile.

Number 2 - Debate is okay. Dissent is okay. Flame attacks and ad hominem attacks are not okay. When this happens, it gets ignored, as does the person who psoted it. They just crossed a line and they can't play until they get back on the civilized side of the line. Nothing is ever wrong with debate and dissent. Some attacks are necessary I feel, in defense, you know what they say about the strongest offense... I like the no play rule.

Number 3 - Attack threads get nothing. No reads. No responses. If you see a response, and you know the person knows better, gently remind them that we don't play that game here any more. Another good one. If you can tell it is an attack thread, stay out. Unless your one of those people who slow way down at accidents.

Number 4 - Play is fine. Serious discussion is fine. If someone does one and not the other, they're fine too. Leave them alone. I agree. Most normal people would get tired of being ignored, and find another part of the playground to play on after awhile.

Number 5 - No one is above a hug. No one. Have you ever tried to hug a snake? I don't know if I can agree with this in totality. We have a few really fucked up beings here Jim.

Number 6 - If you're being mean just to be mean, you can't play. We don't like meanness for its own sake. We don't tolerate it. Sorry. I'm not going to stroke your ego or say poor baby. Do you mean like that? I saw no need for it. Hell by the title alone I had a pretty good idea of what this post was about. I didn't have to enter it. I sure as hell did not have to post in it. I agree with you, sorry I used that example, but it was just too 'there' to pass up.

Number 7 - If you show up and you're "too cool for school", we're not going to play with you either. Confidence we like, arrogance we don't. Ditto.

Number 8 - This is a spinoff to Number 2, but I think it bears its own point. It's fine to call a person's opinion stupid. It's not fine to call the person stupid. And, on the other hand, just because someone has called your opinion stupid doesn't mean they have called you stupid. You are not your opinions. If you feel strongly enough to get insulted, respond by defending your opinion. Bring evidence. Bring learned quotes. Prove that you have a good point. Maybe we could reword this to say something like it is fine to point out inaccuracies or fallacies about a person's opinion, I don't know if I like stupid. The rest I agree with.

Number 9 - Insulting a like or dislike you have is not the same as insulting you. If they do it in your face, for no sound reason, it isn't needed.

How's that for a start?

I'd be willing to accept this as a manifesto. Now what do we do? Recruit? I appoint you leader Jimbo, I'll play Sergeant-at-Arms for ya.

 

[JazzManJim]

I'd be willing to accept this as a manifesto. Now what do we do? Recruit? I appoint you leader Jimbo, I'll play Sergeant-at-Arms for ya.

Yeah...recruit. But not openly, you know. I"m not saying stuff that hasn't already been said. All I think I've really done is asked for help and kind of put things into points. Nothing super, but something.

All I'm going to do with this is apply it across the threads in which I particilate, but overtly, as opposed to covertly. If I see something happening, I'll just invoke a rule and move on.

Oh, and just to prove a point in a small way.

{{{{{{{{ sch00lteacher }}}}}}}}}}

 

[Mischka]

I've been here a year now. I have witnessed no more negativity right now than there was six months ago, or nine months ago, or a year ago.

I don't agree that I "dislike very much" anyone's behavior, JazzManJim. There are as many reasons to post at Lit as there are posters. Some come here to blow off steam because they can't in their off-line lives, or because they are perpetually curmudgeony. That is not going to change, and I would never be so presumptuous as to demand a change in their behavior.

In fact, I happen to like witnessing the dynamics between such diametrically opposed personalities. So many of the people here would never get the chance to interact with some of Lit's personality types in their off-line life. Many others are self-professed people watchers as well, and I bet they get the same kick out of these interactions as I do. It really has helped me learn quite a bit about some personality traits.

If you are opposed to some types of posting, however, then I suggest Weird Harold is a great example to follow. Do you ever see him in threads that you find disdainful? No. He patiently waits for topics that pique his interest, or starts threads of his own. If you look for the positive, you'll find it. If you dwell on the negative, you'll find that as well.

One last note. I simply love the idea of a Clique of Evil. In deference to SatireWire's fabulous article along the same lines, may I suggest we also add the Clique of Not So Evil, the Clique of Not Evil, So Much As Generally Disagreeable, and the Clique That Likes to Make Sheep Wear Women's Clothing and Lipstick?

 

[Tyrael]

Personally, I think that JMJ and Teacher are just taking on unnecessary burdens. You'll have a lot more fun just looking for the threads that you like and the ones that stimulate you instead of patrolling the board looking for the meanies.

You'll be a lot more relaxed if you just have fun. Who cares if someone disagrees with you? Who cares if someone insults you for no reason?

The Clique of Evil was funny tho.

 

[cymbidia]

It is the clique of evil that I am tired of. Don't know who they are? Wait. Like I said, they will be in here before long. They will sniff it out, and come in attacking. They will think we are talking about them, and guess what, WE ARE!

You know what, Teach, you're part of the problem, here.

This is the second nasty-feeling thread i've come across in as many days with veiled references to some evil "they".

For gods, sakes, man, spit out who you're talking about or don't talk about about other people at all!

Who is this "clique of evil"?
I know, and you know, amd half of the rest of us know, too, that you were all riled up about "they" and "the popular kids" in Gilly's thread. (BTW, Gilly & Co had a legitimate point they wanted to present but they spent so much time hinting and intimating about some particular group of people ["they" and "the popular kids"] who were Doing Bad Things that thier very good point got lost in the shit flinging).

List your "clique of evil", Teach, or shut up with such embarassingly juvenile hintings.



Jim? There are no Rules of Genreally Accepted Behavior here. If there were, Laurel would have them posted on the door. She doesn't; therefore they don't exist. Most of us usually adhere to some very general and extremely loosely defined cultural practices concerning what/how we say what we say in posts; that is true. However, those loose, ill-defined, unformed, poorly verbalized things aren't rules and, well, they're never gonna be rules.

Relax.
Have fun.
Don't do the stomping out tantrum thing again, though.
People aren't so smiley about it the second time and it gets stuck to you like it's a part of your nick or something. Then the jokes start.




Along with Mischka, i love Lit the way it is and see no problem in just allowing things to unfold as they will. If i don't like something, i stay away. It's not hard to do.

I'd like to found Clique of The Pincushioned, please, and join the Clique of Not Evil, if you'll have me.



(OH! Where are those Cliches threads we did last... summer? Late summer? They were ***funny***. Chey?)

 

[ToddHwrd]

Cym I don't think you are evil and if you want we'll just start that "Clique of The Not So Evil".......LOL

 

[Tyrael]

I think I'll start a Manga Clique while we're at it.

 

[JazzManJim]

Jim? There are no Rules of Genreally Accepted Behavior here. If there were, Laurel would have them posted on the door. She doesn't; therefore they don't exist. Most of us usually adhere to some very general and extremely loosely defined cultural practices concerning what/how we say what we say in posts; that is true. However, those loose, ill-defined, unformed, poorly verbalized things aren't rules and, well, they're never gonna be rules.

Relax.
Have fun.
Don't do the stomping out tantrum thing again, though.
People aren't so smiley about it the second time and it gets stuck to you like it's a part of your nick or something. Then the jokes start.

Well, there are now, at least for me.

I had thought that perhaps we'd not need such common sense things spelled out, but it looks as if I was wrong.

So I spelled them out for myself and anyone else who is interested. And I intend on sticking to them, and reminding folks of them. If that grates, too bad. This is my way of handling the situation.

And not to worry, I'm not planning on leaving. This is my alternative.