Writing Historical narratives

[NotWise]

Things didn't change much with Spanish either, other than some weird verb conjugations that stood until the 19th century and feel outdated at this point, but they still show up in a few translations of some old works. Old Spanish isn't as different as modern Spanish, and even when Latinamerica was mostly Spain colonies, the Spanish spoken during that time is not so different than the modern Spanish spoken currently at Spain. If I start speaking Spanish the way people at Spain do, I'd be speaking very similarly to the way colonial Spanish was spoken.

Same goes with pirates. While pirate speak is fiction, they were one hell of a vulgar lot. It was quite refreshing to see pirates not speaking like that when I watched Black Sails for the first time, in spite of being based on the characters of the one book that introduced the seed of pirate speak: Treasure Island. Modern pirates speak their language according to their place of origin. I don't know about pirates down at the Indean Ocean, but modern Caribbean pirates, the Venezuelan pirates to be precise, do speak like the rest of Venezuelans, especially those who live in the criminal underworld.

While Spanish grammar may not have changed. The idiom has changed. People don't use the language the way they used to.

Northern New Mexico was settled by Spain starting in the late 1500's, and the area was essentially cut off from European influence as the Spanish empire crumbled from the edges. As a result, Spanish-speakers in northern New Mexico still use idiom that dates from 1600, and it can be hard to understand.

People here think that's quaint, but I've also heard it called "hillbilly Spanish," because it's comparable to isolated populations in Appalachia still speaking eighteenth century English.

Reproducing an historic idiom is one of the challenges with writing historic stories. If you write in the correct idiom then it might seem satisfyingly authentic, but it risks your readers not understanding what your characters are saying.

A 1920's setting isn't too bad. Idiom from the time was unique and some of it is preserved in movies. When I wrote Love is Enough I realized that the idiom that Gabby and Hannah needed was very much my parents' idiom. I did the research, but it felt natural to write.

 

[HordHolm]

When I write historical fiction, I try to read historical fiction by authors I assume are more knowledgeable about the given period than I am.

Contemporary fiction written in the time period in question is a great resource too.

 

[StillStunned]

I'm not sure this is true. People might still get angry, happy, jealous, scared, but what makes them feel that way has changed substantially.

The more I read about history, the more I realise that people are people, regardless of when or where. Check out some of the Roman graffiti in Pompei or other ruins. Read about whichever Roman entrepreneur it was who cornered the oyster market in Naples through aggressive marketing, and then started building heated swimming pools. Read about the oldest named cat, from 3,500 years ago, who was called "Sweetie".

Read Shakespeare or Chaucer. Samuel Pepys wrote about having indigestion and about peeping at Nell Gwyn. People have always loved a fart joke or a dick joke. People have always been concerned with paying the bills, getting laid, sleeping safely at night. People are people, and always have been.

 

[HordHolm]

Read about whichever Roman entrepreneur it was who cornered the oyster market in Naples through aggressive marketing, and then started building heated swimming pools.

Gaius Sergius Orata. A classic entrepreneur.

 

[YmaOHyd]

People have always loved a fart joke or a dick joke.

In the Duc de Saint-Simon's diary of life in the court of Louis XIV, he writes of a man who uncovered a plot against him and, unable to perform his morning ablutions, rushed to reveal the plot to the duc (or the king, I can't remember). Having done so, he was overcome by need for the chamber pot, 'whereupon he left an action that could scarce be contained by the bowl; yet we were all grateful for his other actions that day.'

 

[HordHolm]

Something I considered putting forward as an idea is a Historical Writing Event. But there are so many other events...

 

[KittyOfSteele]

While Spanish grammar may not have changed. The idiom has changed. People don't use the language the way they used to.

Northern New Mexico was settled by Spain starting in the late 1500's, and the area was essentially cut off from European influence as the Spanish empire crumbled from the edges. As a result, Spanish-speakers in northern New Mexico still use idiom that dates from 1600, and it can be hard to understand.

People here think that's quaint, but I've also heard it called "hillbilly Spanish," because it's comparable to isolated populations in Appalachia still speaking eighteenth century English.

Reproducing an historic idiom is one of the challenges with writing historic stories. If you write in the correct idiom then it might seem satisfyingly authentic, but it risks your readers not understanding what your characters are saying.

A 1920's setting isn't too bad. Idiom from the time was unique and some of it is preserved in movies. When I wrote Love is Enough I realized that the idiom that Gabby and Hannah needed was very much my parents' idiom. I did the research, but it felt natural to write.

I'm not an American, so New Mexico is way too far from where I am from. I never heard someone from there speaking Spanish, let alone a native Spanish speaker from there, so I never heard that. I do want to check it out though. Calling it "hillbilly Spanish" already makes it that it could be prone to be made fun of, which is... a common feature among all editions of Spanish that are out there. Don't get me started on how many people think Venezuelans are horny when they're saying they are angry.

 

[Writer61]

Calling it "hillbilly Spanish" already makes it that it could be prone to be made fun of, which is... a common feature among all editions of Spanish that are out there.

That reminds me that Afrikaans is sometimes known as 'Kitchen Dutch'.

 

[TheLobster]

Don't get me started on how many people think Venezuelans are horny when they're saying they are angry.

*scribbles down: like “Anger Management”, but the MC becomes sexually aroused whenever they lose temper*

Got any more of dem plot bunnies?

 

[YmaOHyd]

*scribbles down: like “Anger Management”, but the MC becomes sexually aroused whenever they lose temper*

Got any more of dem plot bunnies?

 

[Jorunn]

I've iterated on the openings of both but can't get the "tone" right.

Often in historical stories, after considerable research is done, I think authors fall in love with the details and minutia. Espousing those can be a drag on the story (especially the start of the story). Better to start with some type of action or dialogue between characters, and slowly introduce the history, time, and location.

As for dialogue, most historical authors tended to be far better educated than common folk and often wanted to show off. Try reading an Emily Dickinson poem without looking up obscure Greek characters (etc).

 

[joy_of_cooking]

I have no doubt that a story can be both historically accurate and also relatable for modern readers, through a combination of sticking to enduring themes (infidelity, bereavement, thinking with the little head) or providing the historical context.

I'm only arguing it's hard.

Also, some stories just don't work. Transfemme stuff, for example, probably requires magic, because the relevant technology mostly doesn't exist. Stiletto heels (which, ahem, figure rather prominently in my stories) don't happen until 1954; earlier heels didn't have the steel core, and had to be much blockier to achieve the necessary strength using weaker materials like wood and leather.

Even super-basic things tripped me up. For example, the plot of my dark fairy tale submission hinges on nobody observing how the MMC and FMC are having sex, but that's wildly anachronistic. The idea of privacy is pretty modern. Kings used to consummate their marriages in front of the whole court. They were very likely not even to have their own bedrooms, instead sharing a room with their closest courtiers and servants. (Luckily, my fairy tale had a generic western-medieval fantasy setting where I got to decide that the king would have a private bedroom.)

 

[TarnishedPenny]

I think the key is to wrap your head around the attitudes and mores of the day. Men will always have whiskers, women will always have periods. Clothes don't matter much.It's the way that people think that counts. Especially in this place, desire will always be desire, jealousy will always be with us, etc.

 

[TheRedLantern]

Something I considered putting forward as an idea is a Historical Writing Event. But there are so many other events...

This thread was spawned by the Jasmine Tea event next year, which is all about historical stories (set in colonial-era Asia, broadly interpreted). If you're looking for a reason to write a story set in that era, there are several of us who are going to be doing similar things (should I figure out how to write my stories in a way where I like my writing but also captures the right historical vibe, which I'm still stuck on).

 

[HordHolm]

This thread was spawned by the Jasmine Tea event next year, which is all about historical stories (set in colonial-era Asia, broadly interpreted). If you're looking for a reason to write a story set in that era, there are several of us who are going to be doing similar things (should I figure out how to write my stories in a way where I like my writing but also captures the right historical vibe, which I'm still stuck on).

I know about the event, which is well outside era, culture and geography I have a feel for. My thought was for something more general.

 

[StillStunned]

Gaius Sergius Orata. A classic entrepreneur.

I can easily imagine a version of "Only Fools and Horses" set in Republic-era Naples, with Orata being the more successful nemesis of our protagonist Dellus Trotterus Puer and his brother Rodneius Trotterus Plonca.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

I can easily imagine a version of "Only Fools and Horses" set in Republic-era Naples, with Orata being the more successful nemesis of our protagonist Dellus Trotterus Puer and his brother Rodneius Trotterus Plonca.

I love the names! Reminds me, I must actually watch I, Claudius.

 

[Writer61]

I love the names! Reminds me, I must actually watch I, Claudius.

I think you mean 'I, Clavdivs'

 

[HordHolm]

I can easily imagine a version of "Only Fools and Horses" set in Republic-era Naples, with Orata being the more successful nemesis of our protagonist Dellus Trotterus Puer and his brother Rodneius Trotterus Plonca.

He had a sideline in used chariots...

 

[Kumquatqueen]

I think you mean 'I, Clavdivs'
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I was going to say that but thought many readers here would be confused. I read some of the book but everyone says the series is even better. It's got a young Derek Jacobi for starters.

 

[TheLobster]

I think you mean 'I, Clavdivs'
View attachment 2582541

By Robert Graues.