Odd writing choices

[Britva415]

Could you explain framing?

Think of it like:

How does it come about, in-universe, that there exists occasional for an audience to be given both points of view?

Is it a manuscript? How did that get put together? How did the 1p part of it get recorded, written or told at all? How did it get put together with another POV? Who are the intended audience, in-universe?

"Frame" is anything which answers any of these questions, or even suggests that answers exist, even without answering them.

 

[iwatchus]

How does it come about, in-universe, that there exists occasional for an audience to be given both points of view?

No I did not do this. The goal was to make the sessions feel almost clinical. It is not a close third and no insight into any character's mindset at all, beyond what is visible to an observer.

I write mostly in first person, so that feels natural to me and doesn't seem to need framing, but I'm probably wrong. If you are willing, I would love to hear your take on this aspect of the story. It was a real experiment for me and got virtually no feedback so I don't know if it was so awful as to drive people away or what. But the rating was solid (4.81).

The story is Mistress Natasha, if you care to look. No ill will if you don't, but I would be very curious for your feedback, positive or negative.

It just occurred to me that this is another story probably getting abused by the section separator bug. If you read and it suddenly feels odd, try refreshing the page. Same it, this bug pisses me off.

 

[YmaOHyd]

Could you explain framing?

Framing is a technique used to bring in outside context to help create structure within the story. Much of Odyssey is framed as Odysseus telling his story to an audience in the court of Alcinous and Arete, making it a story within a story, and that sets the expectation that Odysseus is an unreliable narrator. Framing can be structural -- "At the Mountains of Madness" is framed as a letter or essay attempting to persuade a university to cancel an expedition -- or it can be shared set of tropes and expectations that go with a particular story form -- the Coming of Age story, the Underdog Story, the, uh, Backseat Mommy story. A lot of the time when we talk about tropes, we're talking about framing.

So we know the effect you're going for with the POV shift. Structurally, what justifies it? Let's take Rashomon and, uh, a story on this site. Rashomon basically jumps from 3P to 1P and back because it's framed as a trial. Each shift in perspective is accompanied by a shift in testimony. In a story with a legal/trial framing, we might expect scenes in the courtroom to be in 3P, while the stories told during testimony become 1P, another nested narrative effect. The change in perspective is caused by the structure of the story.

There's a story on this site that's good, really good. It's 1P for 99% of it. But, to my mind, it has the wrong narrator -- the MMC is the narrator but the FMC is the person experiencing growth and catharsis and making the decisions that drive the story. There are times when an absolutely critical decision has to be made and the FMC has to make it, and the MMC can't be present for or privy to what's happening. And in those instances, the author shifts to 3P close for the FMC. It means he gets to tell some of the most important parts of the story, but there's nothing to hang the shift on. It's that looking-around-corners effect, and it takes the reader out of the story to experience (or it would if they weren't there to goon).

 

[TheLobster]

A lot of the time when we talk about tropes, we're talking about framing.

Framing devices are a subset of tropes. But not every trope is a framing device; many, possibly most stories do not employ any framing nor do they require it.

the MMC is the narrator but the FMC is the person experiencing growth and catharsis and making the decisions that drive the story.

That's 1P peripheral PoV, nothing wrong about that.

there's nothing to hang the shift on.

Why there should be? Narration itself is by definition not part of the universe of the story, so why would the shift in it have to be justified in-universe?

 

[StillStunned]

I think structure matters here. I don't like the idea of going 1P -> 3P in a story.

I hate 3P interludes in a 1P story. It just screams "amateur", like the author wants the intimacy of 1P but the multiple perspectives of 3P. Or they don't trust their own ability to provide the reader with the necessary information as the 1P narrator discovers it. Either way, it's a cheap shortcut.

(I should add that "Annie's Inhibition Removal Therapy" - link in my sig - is of course a masterclass in combining 1P and 3P.)

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

Much of this tells me that focusing on what others have done may not be the best practice. If you study others, you become them and adopt their practices.

Be yourself.

Do what you do.

 

[SimonDoom]

Much of this tells me that focusing on what others have done may not be the best practice. If you study others, you become them and adopt their practices.

Be yourself.

Do what you do.

I disagree. That's not good advice with respect to anything. If you want to do something well, learn how others have done it. It doesn't matter what it is: building a bridge, performing surgery on a heart, fixing a plumbing problem, writing a story. It's all the same thing. There's so much to learn from studying how others have done things. This approach helps ensure that one's attitude toward one's craft, whatever it is, is reality-based rather than solipsistic.

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

We're talking creative activities for fun, not skills based tasks that legally require certification.

 

[StillStunned]

I agree with @SimonDoom, in that seeing what others have done before can show you things you might never have thought of. Seeing where others have gone wrong saves you having to learn a harsh lesson yourself, and seeing what others have done right gives you more tools to apply.

Whether you apply them, and how, that's ultimately up to you, and that's what makes us all different as writers.

 

[EdwardsOtherSide]

I did one story entirely in the present tense (mostly to see if I could, but insert artistic blather about being in the moment).
Not my best work, but an interesting exercise.

 

[EdwardsOtherSide]

I agree with @SimonDoom, in that seeing what others have done before can show you things you might never have thought of.

The book "Steal Like an Artist" isn't just for visual arts.

 

[SimonDoom]

We're talking creative activities for fun, not skills based tasks that legally require certification.

I understand, but I believe it's all the same thing. I don't agree with the "just do it the way you want to do it and forget everybody else" perspective. I think the best way to become good at something, whatever it is, is to combine following your muse with studying the way others have done and to build upon what they've done. I think this is the way most "great" artists throughout history have done it.

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

We may be talking about similar things, but at different levels.

Learning HOW to do something is not the same as studying methods to the point of trying to do them the same way.