Why Islam is disrespected

[Ishmael]

Well, this thread took off. And as expected the apologists and accusers have shown up as well.

The accusation about the chemicals and biologics is bogus. One of the last refuges of those incapable of some basic research.

Yes, the God of Islam is one and same with the God of the Christians and Jews. One of the reasons that Christians and Jews are refered to as infidels and are allowed to live under the protection of Islam as long as certain special taxes are paid. All others are 'barbarians' and must either convert or be put to death.

"the scholars differed concerning Q. 2:256. Some said: 'It has been abrogated [cancelled] for the Prophet compelled the Arabs to embrace Islam and fought them and did not accept any alternative but their surrender to Islam. The abrogating verse is Q. 9:73 'O Prophet, struggle with the unbelievers and hypocrites, and be thou harsh with them.' Mohammad asked Allah the permission to fight them and it was granted. Other scholars said Q. 2:256 has not been abrogated, but it had a special application. It was revealed concerning the people of the Book [the Jews and the Christians]; they can not be compelled to embrace Islam if they pay the Jizia (that is head tax on free non-Muslims under Muslim rule). It is only the idol worshippers who are compelled to embrace Islam and upon them Q. 9:73 applies. This is the opinion of Ibn 'Abbas which is the best opinion due to the authenticity of its chain of authority."

DG's statements regarding the Bible are spot on IMO. You can take out the mysticism and it is filled with sex, betrayal, war, peace, and one hell of a lot of very practical information that can be applied everyday.

Islam went into a cultural/religious stasis around the 12th century AD. There has been no major theological writing or school to emerge since that period. It was at that point in time the school of Al-Ashari supplanted the school of the Mu'tazilah as the preeminent school of Islamic philosophy. The school of the Mu'tazilah were the philosophers responsible for the 'Golden Age' of Islam but have now been relegated to cult status by Islamic theological historians. The Mu'tazilah believed that there was a great deal of symbolism in the Qu'ran and used symbolic references to explain the many contradictions contained in the book. They studied Greek dialectic and engaged in regular debates with the noted Jewish and Christian scholars of the day. Al-Ashari was a literalist and where the Qu'ran conflicted with logic, logic was to be cast aside. That is the state of Islam for most of the world today.

In some of the western nations there are Muslims that are attempting to revive the school of the Mu'tazilah. They are having a difficult time resurrecting logic into the theological discussion due to the infiltration of their mosques by more rigid members who follow the school of Al-Ashari and the fact that when the achieve some notiriety, fatwahs are issued against them calling for their death forcing them into hiding and out of the public eye. Much like being a protestant in Spain during the inquisition I suppose.

As a side note regarding the Newsweek debacle. I wonder if those Qu'rans in Gitmo were all in Arabic? Unless the book is written in Arabic it is NOT the holy Qu'ran. It's just another book.

Ishmael

 

[Karen Kraft]

[/b]

Why Islam is disrespected
Jeff Jacoby
May 20, 2005

It was front-page news this week when Newsweek retracted a report claiming that a US interrogator in Guantanamo had flushed a copy of the Koran down a toilet. Everywhere it was noted that Newsweek's story had sparked widespread Muslim rioting, in which at least 17 people were killed. But there was no mention of deadly protests triggered in recent years by comparable acts of desecration against other religions.

No one recalled, for example, that American Catholics lashed out in violent rampages in 1989, after photographer Andres Serrano's ''Piss Christ" -- a photograph of a crucifix submerged in urine -- was included in an exhibition subsidized by the National Endowment for the Arts. Or that they rioted in 1992 when singer Sinead O'Connor, appearing on ''Saturday Night Live," ripped up a photograph of Pope John Paul II.

There was no reminder that Jewish communities erupted in lethal violence in 2000, after Arabs demolished Joseph's Tomb, torching the ancient shrine and murdering a young rabbi who tried to save a Torah from the flames. And nobody noted that Buddhists went on a killing spree in 2001 in response to the destruction of two priceless, 1,500-year-old statues of Buddha by the Taliban government in Afghanistan.

Of course, there was a good reason all these bloody protests went unremembered in the coverage of the Newsweek affair: They never occurred.

Christians, Jews, and Buddhists don't lash out in homicidal rage when their religion is insulted. They don't call for holy war and riot in the streets. It would be unthinkable today for a mainstream priest, rabbi, or lama to demand that a blasphemer be slain. But when Reuters reported what Mohammad Hanif, the imam of a Muslim seminary in Pakistan, said about the alleged Koran-flushers -- ''They should be hung. They should be killed in public so that no one can dare to insult Islam and its sacred symbols" -- was any reader surprised?

The Muslim riots should have been met by an international upwelling of outrage and condemnation. From every part of the civilized world should have come denunciations of those who would react to the supposed destruction of a book with brutal threats and the slaughter of 17 innocent people. But the chorus of condemnation was directed not at the killers and the fanatics who incited them, but at Newsweek.

From the White House down, the magazine was slammed -- for running an item it should have known might prove incendiary, for relying on a shaky source, for its animus toward the military and the war. Over and over, Newsweek was blamed for the riots' death toll. Conservative pundits in particular piled on. ''Newsweek lied, people died" was the headline on Michelle Malkin's popular website. At NationalReview.com, Paul Marshall of Freedom House fumed: ''What planet do these [Newsweek] people live on? . . . Anybody with a little knowledge could have told them it was likely that people would die as a result of the article." All of Marshall's choler was reserved for Newsweek; he had no criticism at all -- not a word -- for the marauders in the Muslim street.

Then there was Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, who announced at a Senate hearing that she had a message for ''Muslims in America and throughout the world." And what was that message? That decent people do not resort to murder just because someone has offended their religious sensibilities? That the primitive bloodlust raging in Afghanistan and Pakistan was evidence of the Muslim world's dysfunctional political culture? That the Bush administration would redouble its efforts to defeat the Islamofascist radicals who use religion as an excuse to foment violence and terror?

No: Her message was that ''disrespect for the Holy Koran is not now, nor has it ever been, nor will it ever be, tolerated by the United States. We honor the sacred books of all the world's great religions."

Granted, Rice spoke while the rioting was still taking place and her goal was to reduce the anti-American fever. But what ''Muslims in America and throughout the world" most need to hear is not pandering sweet-talk. What they need is a blunt reminder that the real desecration of Islam is not what some interrogator in Guantanamo might have done to the Koran. It is what totalitarian Muslim zealots have been doing to innocent human beings in the name of Islam. It is 9/11 and Beslan and Bali and Daniel Pearl and the USS Cole. It is trains in Madrid and schoolbuses in Israel and an ''insurgency" in Iraq that slaughters Muslims as they pray and vote and line up for work. It is Hamas and Al Qaeda and sermons filled with infidel-hatred and exhortations to ''martyrdom."

But what disgraces Islam above all is the vast majority of the planet's Muslims saying nothing and doing nothing about the jihadist cancer eating away at their religion. It is Free Muslims Against Terrorism, a pro-democracy organization, calling on Muslims and Middle Easterners to ''converge on our nation's capital for a rally against terrorism" this month -- and having only 50 people show up.

Yes, Islam is disrespected. That will only change when throngs of passionate Muslims show up for rallies against terrorism, and when rabble-rousers trying to gin up a riot over a defiled Koran can't get the time of day.
Ishmael

Jacoby's right.

 

[phrodeau]

As a side note regarding the Newsweek debacle. I wonder if those Qu'rans in Gitmo were all in Arabic? Unless the book is written in Arabic it is NOT the holy Qu'ran. It's just another book.

Ishmael

According to whom? Certainly not all Muslims believe that.

 

[RosevilleCAguy]

As an interesting side point, when the latest tape came out stating that its perfectly fine to kill innocent Muslims because it was necessary to keep the Jihad going, I didn't hear any outcry in the press.

Business as usual I suppose.

 

[JammieDodger]

I'm rather confused, Ted.

Ishmael, in layman's terms, what exactly is your stance? I've seen you make several big posts with several big quotes but I'm not getting a very clear picture of what your feelings are. On the one hand you seem to be saying Islam is inherently as crap as Christianity because the books from which people derive their belief from are crap. On the other you give a nod to the whole minority getting the majority tarred with the same brush. I'm not making much sense here but I'm getting alot of mixed messages.

Do you hate Islam? Do you like it? Help a poor biscuit with a jam filled centre and a strong heart cut out of the biscuit itself, our here! Its entirely possible I find it easier to understand black and white, I don't know, but I'm unsure as to what you're getting at should be done.

 

[RosevilleCAguy]

I'm rather confused, Ted.

Ishmael, in layman's terms, what exactly is your stance? I've seen you make several big posts with several big quotes but I'm not getting a very clear picture of what your feelings are. On the one hand you seem to be saying Islam is inherently as crap as Christianity because the books from which people derive their belief from are crap. On the other you give a nod to the whole minority getting the majority tarred with the same brush. I'm not making much sense here but I'm getting alot of mixed messages.

Do you hate Islam? Do you like it? Help a poor biscuit with a jam filled centre and a strong heart cut out of the biscuit itself, our here! Its entirely possible I find it easier to understand black and white, I don't know, but I'm unsure as to what you're getting at should be done.

Deathmatch. Get the leaders of all the worlds religions in one huge stadium, arm em with whatever thier faith allows, and let them have at each other. Last person standing is declared grand poobah of the true faith of the planet.

Then we kill him.

 

[RobDownSouth]

Unless the book is written in Arabic it is NOT the holy Qu'ran. It's just another book.

Ishmael

Got any proof to back up that specious claim?

Didn't think so.

Another day, another Ishmael distortion. It never ends, folks.

 

[dgnerate_gamblr]

As a side note regarding the Newsweek debacle. I wonder if those Qu'rans in Gitmo were all in Arabic? Unless the book is written in Arabic it is NOT the holy Qu'ran. It's just another book.

Ishmael

Interesting that you say that. Yesterday on a local radio show, a guest iman said that 70% of the Muslim world is illiterate.

Combine that with your statement above and you have millions of people that have absolutely no capacity to reason or interpret the Koran on their own. Instead, they are being brainwashed by the radical, extremist, fanatic wing of Islam.

 

[RobDownSouth]

Interesting that you say that. Yesterday on a local radio show, a guest iman said that 70% of the Muslim world is illiterate.

Combine that with your statement above and you have millions of people that have absolutely no capacity to reason ....

In my experience, the unwashed masses who lack the capacity to reason are generally called "Fox News Core Audience" and prolly not much interested in the Koran in any event.

 

[mitchell67]

re: invasions

Apologies for the error, I didn't research it.

But what you have done is just confirmed my point - Spain was invaded before the crusades.

I'm not saying the crusades were correct or right or that the crusaders didn't commit atrocities, what I am saying is that all to often when Islam and Christianity/the west are discussed, the Crusades are highlighted but any ancient aggression by Muslims/the middle east is ignored.

Yes, and Spain was invaded before the crusades by the Carthaginians, the Romans, the Visigoths, the Normans....

what's your point? Don't complain about the aggressions by Muslim armies that you think are being ignored if you, yourself, don't even want to do the research.

 

[Rex1960]

Got any proof to back up that specious claim?

Didn't think so.

Another day, another Ishmael distortion. It never ends, folks.

See Rob, the problem is that so many people here just talk BS without any backup knowledge nor research abilities. Like you ?

I thought you might be interested what The Columbia Encyclopedia has to say about the Qur'an in this matter:

Being the verbatim Word of God, the text of the Qur’an is valid for religious purposes only in its original Arabic, cannot be modified, and is not translatable, although the necessity for non-Arabic interpretations is recognized. This has made the Qur’an the most read book in its original language and preserved a classical form of Arabic as an Islamic lingua franca and medium of learning.

Here's the link:

The Columbia Encyclopedia: Qur'an

 

[Rex1960]

Interesting that you say that. Yesterday on a local radio show, a guest iman said that 70% of the Muslim world is illiterate.

Combine that with your statement above and you have millions of people that have absolutely no capacity to reason or interpret the Koran on their own. Instead, they are being brainwashed by the radical, extremist, fanatic wing of Islam.

You're right, and that's why you don't see these masses of uprise against the Imams and Mullahs because most people just believe what they've been told Allahs will was.

Remember the medieval christians before Guttenberg printed the first non latin version of the Bible translated into german by Martin Luther ? One of Luthers main complaints versus the roman catholic church was their monopoly of wisdom and written knowledge and the power they gained thereof.
We all know what followd, the Reformation movement.

Maybe we should support those illiterate muslim masses to learn reading and writing instead of just pointing our uninformed fingers

 

[cjh]

You're right, and that's why you don't see these masses of uprise against the Imams and Mullahs because most people just believe what they've been told Allahs will was.

Remember the medieval christians before Guttenberg printed the first non latin version of the Bible translated into german by Martin Luther ? One of Luthers main complaints versus the roman catholic church was their monopoly of wisdom and written knowledge and the power they gained thereof.
We all know what followd, the Reformation movement.

Maybe we should support those illiterate muslim masses to learn reading and writing instead of just pointing our uninformed fingers

good post

 

[WARMACH1NE]

Ever notice how Assmeal hates everyone except for white males?

 

[Ishmael]

According to whom? Certainly not all Muslims believe that.

According to Islam. Doesn't matter what any particular Muslim believes. Do some research.

Ishmael

 

[Rex1960]

IMHO, I look around and see its effect on men and nations past and present. It's the all-time bestseller, its' appeal to the heart and mind of a believer, it is revered and beloved by at least some in every nation, race or tribe to where it has gone be they rich or poor, king or commoner, wise or simple.

I dont think it would be inaccurate to say that millions of people past and present have found from their personal experience that its promises are true, its advice is sound, its warnings are wise and its message of salvation addresses the question of eternity.

I cant think of another book that has had the effect the Bible has on so many people for such a long period of time. From that standpoint, that's why I think it is unique.

Excuse me dgnerate, that's true for the believers of what ? The written word of the Bible ? Or what the Roman Catholic Church made of it ? And later all those reformers, protestants and hundreds of sects ?

Look at all those different interpretations and you'll find that the Bible as you know it is not the same Bible as i.e. Coptic or Armanians christians believe it was. They differ in the gospels, they differ in all kinds of translations and interpretations. Assuming you have a King James Bible it's already different from the Bible I have here, which is
Die Bibel
Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft 2. Auflage 1982
ISBN 3-438-01852-7 Linson

It took the prostestant and catholic biblic societies of Germany, Austria and Switzerland years and years to make it a common German translation. Go figure

 

[Ishmael]

I'm rather confused, Ted.

Ishmael, in layman's terms, what exactly is your stance? I've seen you make several big posts with several big quotes but I'm not getting a very clear picture of what your feelings are. On the one hand you seem to be saying Islam is inherently as crap as Christianity because the books from which people derive their belief from are crap. On the other you give a nod to the whole minority getting the majority tarred with the same brush. I'm not making much sense here but I'm getting alot of mixed messages.

Do you hate Islam? Do you like it? Help a poor biscuit with a jam filled centre and a strong heart cut out of the biscuit itself, our here! Its entirely possible I find it easier to understand black and white, I don't know, but I'm unsure as to what you're getting at should be done.

I think Islam is a deeply flawed religion as dominated by the current school of theological thought. I've already noted that that is changing outside the hard core Muslim nations, but those are not necessarily where the world is having problems, is it?

At the core of it is the orthdox belief that the Holy Qu'ran is the veritble word of God. Not the words of God as filtered through the prophets mind, but the actual and literal words of God. And those words of God have contradictions throughout the Qu'ran. Further, the Qu'ran concerns itself with property law, inheritance, slave treatment, taxes, vitually every aspect of what the western world regards as secular law. Consequently there is no differentiation between the divine and the secular. This is an attribute that was relatively common in Christianity too during the dark ages.

I neither hate it nor love it. There are aspects of the religion that are noble and worthy of attention. But Islam as professed by the orthodox and radical is incompatible with modern culture. Those forces within Islam must be reckoned with and contained and the softer side of Islam must be nurtured and encouraged. But the forces of Alamut must be identified and crushed one final time.

Ishmael

 

[Ishmael]

You're right, and that's why you don't see these masses of uprise against the Imams and Mullahs because most people just believe what they've been told Allahs will was.

Remember the medieval christians before Guttenberg printed the first non latin version of the Bible translated into german by Martin Luther ? One of Luthers main complaints versus the roman catholic church was their monopoly of wisdom and written knowledge and the power they gained thereof.
We all know what followd, the Reformation movement.

Maybe we should support those illiterate muslim masses to learn reading and writing instead of just pointing our uninformed fingers

That is part of the problem Rex. But it isn't the entire problem. You have to recall that all of the 9-11 terrorists were educated men from upper middle class families. That fact alone should tell us that education as a general concept isn't the answer. The cannon fodder that is recruited in place in the various locales probably are from the uneducated masses. But those are not the people that represent a threat to the western nations. I would suggest it is the nature of the education that makes the difference.

You might also want to research the literacy rates in those nations that are producing those that we call terorists. You may be suprised by the literacy rates.

Ishmael

 

[cjh]

<snip>
At the core of it is the orthdox belief that the Holy Qu'ran is the veritble word of God. Not the words of God as filtered through the prophets mind, but the actual and literal words of God. And those words of God have contradictions throughout the Qu'ran. Further, the Qu'ran concerns itself with property law, inheritance, slave treatment, taxes, vitually every aspect of what the western world regards as secular law. Consequently there is no differentiation between the divine and the secular. This is an attribute that was relatively common in Christianity too during the dark ages.
<snip>

Ishmael

we are not so different from that. i can't tell you how many times i've banged my head up against the wall trying to get some yahoo to ponder whether god published the kings james version of the bible, or to admit that translation from one language to another necessarily creates the opportunity for the translator to select from different meanings of a word, or to confront a word that not is readily translatable.

April 23, 2005--Sixty-three percent (63%) of Americans believe the Bible is literally true and the Word of God. A Rasmussen Reports survey found that 24% disagree and say it is not.

A related survey found that 47% of Americans pray every day or nearly every day.

Among Evangelical Christians, 89% believe the Bible is literally true and just 4% say it is not. Among other Protestants, 70% believe the Bible is literally true. That view is shared by 58% of Catholics.

By a 4-to-1 margin, those who believe the Bible is literally true have a favorable opinion of the new Pope.

Sixty-five percent (65%) of women believe the Bible is literally true along with 61% of men.

Seventy-seven percent (77%) of Republicans believe in the literal truth of the Bible as do 59% of Democrats and 50% of those not affiliated with either major party.

Eighty-two percent (82%) of black Americans believe the Bible is literally true and is the Word of God. Fifty-nine percent (59%) of White Americans share that view along with 71% of other, primarily Hispanic, Americans.

While older Americans are a bit more likely to believe in the literal truth of the Bible, 58% of American adults under 30 hold that view.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/2005/Bible.htm

 

[Ishmael]

we are not so different from that. i can't tell you how many times i've banged my head up against the wall trying to get some yahoo to ponder whether god published the kings james version of the bible, or to admit that translation from one language to another necessarily creates the opportunity for the translator to select from different meanings of a word, or to confront a word that not is readily translatable.



http://www.rasmussenreports.com/2005/Bible.htm

I'm sorry, but there is NO Christian or Jewish major sect that believes the Bible is the veritable word of God from cover to cover. There are many that believe that the Bible contains the word of God as relayed to us via the writer.

With only a few exceptions most Christian and Jewish theologians believe that the writers of the bible were divinely inspired. The Islamic view with regard to the Holy Qu'ran is that Mohammed was the equivalent of a court stenographer. That the prophet was the speaker to Gods microphone and that each and every word in the Holy Qu'ran is as spoken from the lips of God.

And that brings us to the difference between the Mu'tazilah and the Al-Ashari. The Mu'tazilah said, "Yes, those were the words of God, but they were filtered through an imperfect language and thus must be interpreted in a logical context." Whereas the Al-Ashari say, "Those are the words of God and they mean exactly what they mean. God is perfect and there can be no error."

In the Bible we have but the ten commandments cast in stone. In the eyes of the Al-Ashari, the entire Holy Qu'ran is cast in stone.

Do you see the problem here?

Ishmael

 

[cjh]

I'm sorry, but there is NO Christian or Jewish major sect that believes the Bible is the veritable word of God from cover to cover. There are many that believe that the Bible contains the word of God as relayed to us via the writer.

With only a few exceptions most Christian and Jewish theologians believe that the writers of the bible were divinely inspired. The Islamic view with regard to the Holy Qu'ran is that Mohammed was the equivalent of a court stenographer. That the prophet was the speaker to Gods microphone and that each and every word in the Holy Qu'ran is as spoken from the lips of God.

And that brings us to the difference between the Mu'tazilah and the Al-Ashari. The Mu'tazilah said, "Yes, those were the words of God, but they were filtered through an imperfect language and thus must be interpreted in a logical context." Whereas the Al-Ashari say, "Those are the words of God and they mean exactly what they mean. God is perfect and there can be no error."

In the Bible we have but the ten commandments cast in stone. In the eyes of the Al-Ashari, the entire Holy Qu'ran is cast in stone.

Do you see the problem here?

Ishmael

you're parsing words. many christians believe in inerrancy. some ascribe inerrancy to the original text and allow for slippage in subsequent translations; some don't. but in many conservative dominations, the bible is not inspired by god. it's god's literal words.

The Old Testament is not just a faulty human record of God's revelation to man. The communication is so intrinsically involved in the revelation itself that one must say that the Word is that revelation. God spoke (Heb. 1:1). And by their own constantly repeated insistence, the Old Testament writings are the Word of the Lord. That Word does not simply report concerning truth. As Jesus said to the Father, "Thy word is truth" (John 17 :17). It is truth as the Old Testament revelation. It is truth as the Old Testament predictions of the coming of Christ. It is truth in its total contents, which support the whole theme of redemptive revelation. It is all truth. "One jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled" (Matt. 5:18, KJV). While Jesus does not use the late Latin word "inerrant," He goes beyond the term to its strictest possible application to the Old Testament. The Word of God cannot fail in the least degree.

http://wesley.nnu.edu/wesleyan_theology/theojrnl/01-05/03-4.htm

 

[Ishmael]

you're parsing words. many christians believe in inerrancy. some ascribe inerrancy to the original text and allow for slippage in subsequent translations; some don't. but in many conservative dominations, the bible is not inspired by god. it's god's literal words.



http://wesley.nnu.edu/wesleyan_theology/theojrnl/01-05/03-4.htm

You are the one parsing here. I've already conceded that there are some theologians that subscribe to the notion that specific words ARE from the lips of God through some instrument. Narratives of actions from the pen of third parties do NOT fall into that category. And the Bible is mostly narrative in nature, even the new testament. That is NOT the case with the Holy Qu'ran.

So while you nit pick the Bible you miss the entire point of the Holy Qu'ran and the beliefs behind it and in missing that mark by your unrelenting interest in displaying what little minutuea you do know, you miss the opportunity to understand the nature of the enemy we face.

I suspect you're a lawyer.

Ishmael

 

[Lovelynice]

Perhaps the 100,000 civilians killed include everyone not wearing a uniform when they die; including insurgents and baathist killers who wear no uniforms?

Not really. The figure is about CIVILIANS like these people....



Dead insurgents killed by US-paid mercenaries in Falluja (yes, they’re kids). The mercs fired upon unarmed protestors; one of the many reasons for initial violent uprising which led to the local people hanging four of those same mercenaries.
http://www.eonet.ne.jp/~daljinspace/Nick_Berg_killing.files/image016.jpg

http://www.robert-fisk.com/6712ce10.jpg

http://www.robert-fisk.com/5%2520The%2520nice%2520faints.jpg

http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqiterrorist.jpg

http://www.robert-fisk.com/5cc3bd00.jpg

http://www.robert-fisk.com/38d5cf90.jpg

http://www.robert-fisk.com/57dfc740.jpg

http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqboy1_10apr2003.jpg

They don't look much like Baathist killers and insurgents do they? Hey, there's literally thousands and thousands of pictures of CIVILIAN victims of the UK & USA's aggression in Iraq.

 

[Gringao]

Does Rwanda ring a bell ? As far as I know that genocide had nothing to do with religion but with trible conflicts. Lets not discuss the poor job UN under Annan did.

Nonsense. They sat on their hands in the most perfect manner during Rwanda. Until the catering arrived, that is.

 

[Lovelynice]

...you miss the opportunity to understand the nature of the enemy we face...

An enemy which the USA created by their own actions.

Since the illegal invasion of Iraq and the current repressive occupation of that country, has terrorism been reduced in any way, Ishmael?

No, it hasn't. It's been multiplied in response.