Why Islam is disrespected

[eagleyez]

Aha-

Obvious that Ish has been to the bloodbank tonight and sold a pint of his red gold for enough quid to buy a quart of cheap Gin.

Perhaps even enough left over for Cab fare back to the home.

And he wants to talk about disrespect? Listen to HIM if you want to witness disrespect.

lol

*shakes head with amusement*

some cogent and interesting thoughts in this thread, but NONE from goofy.

Same shit-different day.

good night peeps, Im going to keep reading this book in my lap now. Sweet dreams.

 

[Gringao]

What difference does it make what they believe? They can believe in John Travolta for all I care.

But show me where are the entire nations of Christian fundamentalists violently rioting every time an 'artist' pisses on a crucifix? For every one Christian wacko out there shooting abortion doctors, there's about ten thousand 'martyrs' ready to kill and die for Islam.

The article quoted in the first post is right. We are so used to such violent fanaticism from a certain segment of Moslems that we don't even question it. But the predictable counter-arguments of moral equivalency between contemporary Christian fundamentalism and today's Islamic extremism are absurd.

I don't support this war, but I'm not going to dirty that stance by automatically taking the side of murderous fanatics who believe in, basically, enslaving women, murdering gays and non-believers, and conquering the world.

That pretty much cut the Gordian knot of CJ's nonsense, I'd say.

 

[cjh]

What difference does it make what they believe? They can believe in John Travolta for all I care.

But show me where are the entire nations of Christian fundamentalists violently rioting every time an 'artist' pisses on a crucifix? For every one Christian wacko out there shooting abortion doctors, there's about ten thousand 'martyrs' ready to kill and die for Islam.

The article quoted in the first post is right. We are so used to such violent fanaticism from a certain segment of Moslems that we don't even question it. But the predictable counter-arguments of moral equivalency between contemporary Christian fundamentalism and today's Islamic extremism are absurd.

I don't support this war, but I'm not going to dirty that stance by automatically taking the side of murderous fanatics who believe in, basically, enslaving women, murdering gays and non-believers, and conquering the world.

i don't recall anyone taking the side of terrorists. you're twisting words.

and you are deceiving yourself if you don't believe that you need to be wary of efforts by fundamentalist christians who believe in imminent rapture and armageddon to influence mid-east policy.

 

[Gringao]

i don't recall anyone taking the side of terrorists. you're twisting words.

and you are deceiving yourself if you don't believe that you need to be wary of efforts by fundamentalist christians who believe in imminent rapture and armageddon to influence mid-east policy.

So now we've come from jihad-crazed maniacs bent on getting their turn at the celestial whorehouse by charging into schools filled with Jews to slightly kooky televangelists that bemoan the idea of gay marriage.

Yup, exactly alike.

 

[ruminator]

not just "true."

literal.

inerrant.

Look for the keywords that communicate this and transfer support from religion to politics.


absolute truth is a good example.

 

[Gringao]

Look for the keywords that communicate this and transfer support from religion to politics.


absolute truth is a good example.

Been floggin' that deceased equine for over a week now, ain't ya?

 

[cjh]

So now we've come from jihad-crazed maniacs bent on getting their turn at the celestial whorehouse by charging into schools filled with Jews to slightly kooky televangelists that bemoan the idea of gay marriage.

Yup, exactly alike.

To understand what is happening in the Middle East, you must first understand what is happening in Texas. To understand what is happening there, you should read the resolutions passed at the state's Republican party conventions last month. Take a look, for example, at the decisions made in Harris County, which covers much of Houston.

The delegates began by nodding through a few uncontroversial matters: homosexuality is contrary to the truths ordained by God; "any mechanism to process, license, record, register or monitor the ownership of guns" should be repealed; income tax, inheritance tax, capital gains tax and corporation tax should be abolished; and immigrants should be deterred by electric fences. Thus fortified, they turned to the real issue: the affairs of a small state 7,000 miles away. It was then, according to a participant, that the "screaming and near fist fights" began.

I don't know what the original motion said, but apparently it was "watered down significantly" as a result of the shouting match. The motion they adopted stated that Israel has an undivided claim to Jerusalem and the West Bank, that Arab states should be "pressured" to absorb refugees from Palestine, and that Israel should do whatever it wishes in seeking to eliminate terrorism. Good to see that the extremists didn't prevail then.

But why should all this be of such pressing interest to the people of a state which is seldom celebrated for its fascination with foreign affairs? The explanation is slowly becoming familiar to us, but we still have some difficulty in taking it seriously.

In the United States, several million people have succumbed to an extraordinary delusion. In the 19th century, two immigrant preachers cobbled together a series of unrelated passages from the Bible to create what appears to be a consistent narrative: Jesus will return to Earth when certain preconditions have been met. The first of these was the establishment of a state of Israel. The next involves Israel's occupation of the rest of its "biblical lands" (most of the Middle East), and the rebuilding of the Third Temple on the site now occupied by the Dome of the Rock and al-Aqsa mosques. The legions of the antichrist will then be deployed against Israel, and their war will lead to a final showdown in the valley of Armageddon. The Jews will either burn or convert to Christianity, and the Messiah will return to Earth.

What makes the story so appealing to Christian fundamentalists is that before the big battle begins, all "true believers" (ie those who believe what they believe) will be lifted out of their clothes and wafted up to heaven during an event called the Rapture. Not only do the worthy get to sit at the right hand of God, but they will be able to watch, from the best seats, their political and religious opponents being devoured by boils, sores, locusts and frogs, during the seven years of Tribulation which follow.

The true believers are now seeking to bring all this about. This means staging confrontations at the old temple site (in 2000, three US Christians were deported for trying to blow up the mosques there), sponsoring Jewish settlements in the occupied territories, demanding ever more US support for Israel, and seeking to provoke a final battle with the Muslim world/Axis of Evil/United Nations/ European Union/France or whoever the legions of the antichrist turn out to be.

The believers are convinced that they will soon be rewarded for their efforts. The antichrist is apparently walking among us, in the guise of Kofi Annan, Javier Solana, Yasser Arafat or, more plausibly, Silvio Berlusconi. The Wal-Mart corporation is also a candidate (in my view a very good one), because it wants to radio-tag its stock, thereby exposing humankind to the Mark of the Beast.

By clicking on www.raptureready.com, you can discover how close you might be to flying out of your pyjamas. The infidels among us should take note that the Rapture Index currently stands at 144, just one point below the critical threshold, beyond which the sky will be filled with floating nudists. Beast Government, Wild Weather and Israel are all trading at the maximum five points (the EU is debat ing its constitution, there was a freak hurricane in the south Atlantic, Hamas has sworn to avenge the killing of its leaders), but the second coming is currently being delayed by an unfortunate decline in drug abuse among teenagers and a weak showing by the antichrist (both of which score only two).

We can laugh at these people, but we should not dismiss them. That their beliefs are bonkers does not mean they are marginal. American pollsters believe that 15-18% of US voters belong to churches or movements which subscribe to these teachings. A survey in 1999 suggested that this figure included 33% of Republicans. The best-selling contemporary books in the US are the 12 volumes of the Left Behind series, which provide what is usually described as a "fictionalised" account of the Rapture (this, apparently, distinguishes it from the other one), with plenty of dripping details about what will happen to the rest of us. The people who believe all this don't believe it just a little; for them it is a matter of life eternal and death.

And among them are some of the most powerful men in America. John Ashcroft, the attorney general, is a true believer, so are several prominent senators and the House majority leader, Tom DeLay. Mr DeLay (who is also the co-author of the marvellously named DeLay-Doolittle Amendment, postponing campaign finance reforms) travelled to Israel last year to tell the Knesset that "there is no middle ground, no moderate position worth taking".

So here we have a major political constituency - representing much of the current president's core vote - in the most powerful nation on Earth, which is actively seeking to provoke a new world war. Its members see the invasion of Iraq as a warm-up act, as Revelation (9:14-15) maintains that four angels "which are bound in the great river Euphrates" will be released "to slay the third part of men". They batter down the doors of the White House as soon as its support for Israel wavers: when Bush asked Ariel Sharon to pull his tanks out of Jenin in 2002, he received 100,000 angry emails from Christian fundamentalists, and never mentioned the matter again.

The electoral calculation, crazy as it appears, works like this. Governments stand or fall on domestic issues. For 85% of the US electorate, the Middle East is a foreign issue, and therefore of secondary interest when they enter the polling booth. For 15% of the electorate, the Middle East is not just a domestic matter, it's a personal one: if the president fails to start a conflagration there, his core voters don't get to sit at the right hand of God. Bush, in other words, stands to lose fewer votes by encouraging Israeli aggression than he stands to lose by restraining it. He would be mad to listen to these people. He would also be mad not to.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1195568,00.html

edit: to highlight passage

 

[eagleyez]

So now we've come from jihad-crazed maniacs bent on getting their turn at the celestial whorehouse by charging into schools filled with Jews to slightly kooky televangelists that bemoan the idea of gay marriage.

Yup, exactly alike.

Ask the parents of the kids Timothy McVeigh slaughtered if "slightly kooky" applies.
Televangilists, right wing extemists, patently corrupt and imperial goverments. It leads to death and decay. I assume you have never lost anyone close to you in some trumped up bogus act of "righteousness." There's enough of that to go around and around. If I am wrong I apologize. Its just so easy to talk talk talk.

Meanwhile,
As Rex pointed out, the balls keep spinning.

Help someone in need. Free your head instead. May your heart follow.

 

[Gringao]

Ask the parents of the kids Timothy McVeigh slaughtered if "slightly kooky" applies.
Televangilists, right wing extemists, patently corrupt and imperial goverments. It leads to death and decay. I assume you have never lost anyone close to you in some trumped up bogus act of "righteousness." There's enough of that to go around and around. If I am wrong I apologize. Its just so easy to talk talk talk.

Meanwhile,
As Rex pointed out, the balls keep spinning.

Help someone in need. Free your head instead. May your heart follow.

McVeigh wasn't a Christian. He didn't even believe in God.

Look here

 

[Gringao]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1195568,00.html

One county in one state?

Jesus.

 

[ruminator]

Been floggin' that deceased equine for over a week now, ain't ya?

Yeah, that must be the 2nd or 3rd time I've mentioned it.

It doesn't matter to me anymore. I've accepted the fact that the same people who voted for Bush are willing to accept all harmful legislation or policy because it eventually fullfills God's plans.


Are you ready enough for the Rapture to put your future in their hands?

 

[cjh]

One county in one state?

Jesus.

*chuckles

 

[ruminator]

What difference does it make what they believe? They can believe in John Travolta for all I care.

But show me where are the entire nations of Christian fundamentalists violently rioting every time an 'artist' pisses on a crucifix? For every one Christian wacko out there shooting abortion doctors, there's about ten thousand 'martyrs' ready to kill and die for Islam.

The article quoted in the first post is right. We are so used to such violent fanaticism from a certain segment of Moslems that we don't even question it. But the predictable counter-arguments of moral equivalency between contemporary Christian fundamentalism and today's Islamic extremism are absurd.

I don't support this war, but I'm not going to dirty that stance by automatically taking the side of murderous fanatics who believe in, basically, enslaving women, murdering gays and non-believers, and conquering the world.

Maybe the Christian version of violent rioting is a more acceptable one.

War..., torture.........collateral damage of civilians .....plenty of dead innocent children, but that's ok, it's all part of the plan.

 

[Gringao]

Yeah, that must be the 2nd or 3rd time I've mentioned it.

It doesn't matter to me anymore. I've accepted the fact that the same people who voted for Bush are willing to accept all harmful legislation or policy because it eventually fullfills God's plans.


Are you ready enough for the Rapture to put your future in their hands?

A. I didn't vote for Bush, either time. And I detest 99% of his domestic agenda.

B. I have quite willing hands here that provide all the rapture I need.

 

[ruminator]

A. I didn't vote for Bush, either time. And I detest 99% of his domestic agenda.

B. I have quite willing hands here that provide all the rapture I need.

I understand that.

It doesn't matter if you or I believe in the Rapture or it's possible imminent arrival.

There are enough that do and they are influencing our domestic and foreign policy agendas.

Who knows, maybe they're right.

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

Without getting into the distracting conflict here over the relative proportions of fundamentalist beliefs within Christianity vs. Islam, I'd like to try to draw out a commonality that most on this thread seem to be espousing.

I think most would agree that in a world of people ascribing to different religions, philosophies, and worldviews, we do well to maintain a certain amount skepticism about the absolute truth of our beliefs. Faith is heartening to people. If facilitates the development pro-social behavior, self-discipline, and moral values. It facilitates a larger community of shared belief.

All good so far.

Taken to extremes in a pluralistic world, however, religious beliefs that assume absolute truth inevitably bring out the worst in human beings (see the Catholic Inquisition, Islamic terrorists, the past 400 years of European religious warfare, etc.) This danger of absolute belief isn't exclusive to religion, though. The last hundred years has seen a number of horribly violent political regimes based on absolutist secular political philosophies (Communist USSR, the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, Nazi Germany, Maoist China, etc.)

The inevitable consequence of believing you have access to absolute truth about the nature of God, human nature, history, etc. is that regardless of the professed beliefs of the system, it fosters justification of all sorts of behaviors toward non-believers that would never be acceptable behavior toward fellow believers. All of this might be justified, of course, for those for who actually find absolute truth. But as skepticism tends to keep people from killing each other, I'm all for it until we can all peacefully agree on absolute truth.

 

[phrodeau]

Agreement that the Bible is the literal word of God is meaningless without agreement on what that literal meaning is. If there was monolithic harmony fo 63% of Christians on the literal and inerrancy of the Bible, 63% of Christians (minimum) would be in that particular denomination.

OTOH, I'd be willing to be that figure would be on the order of 98% of Muslims (the other 2% answering in fear, the punishment for apostasy being death).

Islam is fragmented, though not as much as other major religions.

As for "literal word of God", Christians will tell you to look for the red text in the Gospels, and you will find it.

 

[Lovelynice]

That pic post just moved you to the top ten of my "ignorant cocksuker" list.

Fuck you you ignorant cunt. Off to ignore land your insipid ass goes.

Ishmael

You've said that before... LOL

Ignoring me doesn't make me go away however does it? You only lose out because you can't defeat the point I made.

Neither do your insults defeat the point I was making. There are far more civilian victims being killed by the US military actions in Iraq then "Baathist killers" and "Insurgents". Over 30,000 civilians killed directly by UK & USA military forces, and and estimated 100,000 civillians have died in ways directly attributable to the UK & USA's military actions in Iraq according to the UN.

 

[Lovelynice]

Lets be honest...

http://www.robert-fisk.com/5%2520The%2520nice%2520faints.jpg

This one has just gotten pretty pissed whilst dancing the night away to Iraq's newest sensation 'knowing me, knowing you, shiahaa" and is being told off by woman on the right in burkah (or ninja on the right, hard to tell!).

That, or she's dead...

I prefer my analysis.

She's DEAD.

 

[Lovelynice]

Ah yes, the rest of the world is but a passive actor, able only to react to what the US does. We are the prime mover, the uncaused cause, the malign superman. The remainder of humanity simply mindless puppets.

Back on this planet, however, the anti-Americanism of the Mideast has been a project for any number of revolting regimes for decades, from the Stalinist USSR to the Third Reich (of which the Ba'athist Party was a bastard son).

All you showed with that silly post is that you're up yourself.

You also have little imagination. I've seen the same excuse repeated ad-infinitum by rightwingers who can't think for themselves and know nothing of history.

 

[Ishmael]

Without getting into the distracting conflict here over the relative proportions of fundamentalist beliefs within Christianity vs. Islam, I'd like to try to draw out a commonality that most on this thread seem to be espousing.

I think most would agree that in a world of people ascribing to different religions, philosophies, and worldviews, we do well to maintain a certain amount skepticism about the absolute truth of our beliefs. Faith is heartening to people. If facilitates the development pro-social behavior, self-discipline, and moral values. It facilitates a larger community of shared belief.

All good so far.

Taken to extremes in a pluralistic world, however, religious beliefs that assume absolute truth inevitably bring out the worst in human beings (see the Catholic Inquisition, Islamic terrorists, the past 400 years of European religious warfare, etc.) This danger of absolute belief isn't exclusive to religion, though. The last hundred years has seen a number of horribly violent political regimes based on absolutist secular political philosophies (Communist USSR, the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, Nazi Germany, Maoist China, etc.)

The inevitable consequence of believing you have access to absolute truth about the nature of God, human nature, history, etc. is that regardless of the professed beliefs of the system, it fosters justification of all sorts of behaviors toward non-believers that would never be acceptable behavior toward fellow believers. All of this might be justified, of course, for those for who actually find absolute truth. But as skepticism tends to keep people from killing each other, I'm all for it until we can all peacefully agree on absolute truth.

Oh, religious dogma doesn't have a monopoly on mass murder and mayhem. Read up on Communism. Then again, there is a great deal of Socialist/Communist belief that requires 'faith'.

Ishmael

 

[Ishmael]

Islam is fragmented, though not as much as other major religions.

As for "literal word of God", Christians will tell you to look for the red text in the Gospels, and you will find it.

Yup.

Now point to a sect that has every word in the Bible printed in red. Think you can do that?

Ishmael

 

[Ishmael]

McVeigh wasn't a Christian. He didn't even believe in God.

Look here

Don't confuse these yokels with facts now.

They attempt to draw this line of moral equivalency between Islam and Christianity, or in pp's case, Judaism. I still don't understand their purpose in doing so.

Is it so they can exonerate the Islamic fundamentalists? Why would they want to do that?

Why would they fear "the rapture" if they are non-believers. Seems to me to be a case of fear of things 'that go bump in the night.' Or perhaps they're truly 'closet Christian Fundamentalists' that fear 'the rapture' because they fear they just aren't gong to make the cut?

Whatever the case I wonder if they realize that they're displaying an irrational fear that has no basis in known fact?

They go on and on about all of the evil done in the name of religion (focusing mostly on Christianity thereby demonstrating the shallowness of their education and ignorance of history). They do this while ignoring the fact that the greatest mass slaughter of human life in the shortest period of time came from the hands of those that professed NO faith whatsoever.

The second greatest slaughter of human life on this planet in a short period of time had nothing to do with religion either. Read up on the Mongol Hoards to relive that pastoral period of human history.

It becomes apparent that their irrational fear is probably more a product of their educational background rather than knowledge built on, or beholding to, anything that approaches fact.

Ishmael

 

[*******]

You've said that before... LOL

Ignoring me doesn't make me go away however does it? You only lose out because you can't defeat the point I made.

Neither do your insults defeat the point I was making. There are far more civilian victims being killed by the US military actions in Iraq then "Baathist killers" and "Insurgents". Over 30,000 civilians killed directly by UK & USA military forces, and and estimated 100,000 civillians have died in ways directly attributable to the UK & USA's military actions in Iraq according to the UN.

I finally shut peeps up on this issue, now it's your turn.

If you do the math from the time we got involved to the time the UN report was put out, we would have had to killed roughly 2,000 Iraqi civilians every single fawkin' day. Now how long could we have covered that up with the rabid out to get Bush mentality we have in the world press?

You are repeating a big lie loud and long as per Goebbels 101...

 

[*******]

Timmy was a direct ally of Al Qaeda but in the Clinton administration's rush to blame it on "angry white men," the real danger to America at that time, he was killed before we could get the truth out of him.

Look at the new information they got out of his buddy just the week before last...