What would Yate's fate be if Lit. was her jury?

[alexandraaah]

Just curious. I personally don't see the sense in the death penalty in this instance, however, I often vacillate on the subject.

 

[Thumper]

Lifetime

Incarceration in a mental hospital.

THis case just proves we have a long way to go in understanding and treating mental illness. Why not study a classic case?

Who will feel good about killing her?

It won't make my life better.

 

[bored1]

I dont see where killing her would do much good....and I beleive in the death penalty.......Why not let her go so she and Rusty can start over....Im sure shes sorry

 

[fallon2]

Live

Let her live the next 40 or so years with the knowledge she has to wake up every day and remember she killed her children.

 

[KillerMuffin]

Life in prison, no possibility of parole. She knew what she was doing was wrong, therefore she is responsible for what she did and accountable for what she did. There is only one legal definition of insanity in this country and that's M'Naughten; as it should be.

I'm vastly irritated that people would take a cut and dried issue, murder, and try to turn it into some sort of stupid feministic sob story. She's not responsible for what she did cause she was psychotic. You know, that applies to Jeffrey Dahmer, John Wayne Gacy, Elizabeth Bathory, and Dr. Josef Eichmann, too. She's not special because she's a woman and psychosis is not an excuse to evade responsibility and accountability. There is only one excuse and that is when you have no idea that what you were doing at the time was wrong.

The death penalty though? Nope. She's not a danger to society. I would like to see her spayed, though. The woman obviously needs to never have children again.

 

[Marxist]

I wanted a "drown her in a very small bathtub filled with fecal matter" option.

I don't believe in the death penalty normally because it's not fairly adminstered across racial and economic lines and the chances of killing one wrong person is beyond heinous...BUT in cases where someone did it and freely admits to it, I don't see why they should hang around to breathe my goddamn oxygen.

 

[cutie pie]

I am a proponent of the death penalty, however in this case I believe she should be sentenced to life. . .if only to spend each and every day reminded of the innocent lives that she took. There are so many issues about this case that could be argued at great length, but the fact remains that she killed her children and she knew what she was doing. Yes, she was mentally ill - that had been diagnosed prior to the birth of her last child. Her husband was aware of her mental state prior to the killings, and did nothing about it. But being mentally ill does not absolve her guilt. . .not in this case.

 

[Thumper]

Cause...

It ain't your goddamned air Marxist.

Last I checked it is the one thing the capitalists haven't laid claim to for their own gain.

She is suffering enough...

And keeping her incarcerated will punish that asshole of a husband also.

He just ain't right.

 

[Vilac]

Re: Cause...

And keeping her incarcerated will punish that asshole of a husband also.

He just ain't right.

Now we're talking. If I've said that once....I've said it a dozen times. Something's not right with him either. If I had to bet...(and I'm a betting man) he's just as fucked up as his wife is.

And...she's as fucked up as a football bat.

<shrug>

Takes all kinds....so they say.
V~~~~

 

[Marxist]

Re: Cause...

It ain't your goddamned air Marxist.

Is too.

Prove it ain't.

Another option that should have been listed:

"Made to fight an unmedicated and food deprived Mike Tyson bare-knuckled in a twelve rounder"

Winner gets life in a mental bin.

Loser is sent to Noble, GA for a solemn cremation.

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

May I actually hear the evidence instead of the mass media synopses before I sentence a person to death?

 

[Thumper]

Re: Re: Cause...

Is too.

Prove it ain't.

Another option that should have been listed:

"Made to fight an unmedicated and food deprived Mike Tyson bare-knuckled in a twelve rounder"

Winner gets life in a mental bin.

Loser is sent to Noble, GA for a solemn cremation.

As for the air..if it's your then clean the shit up!

And as for the fight I think I would rather face Hannibal Lecter. He would eat less.

 

[naudiz]

The whole issue of sanity strikes me as odd in cases like these. Of course the woman is insane. What sane person murders her own children? Or anyone else's for that matter? What sane person goes on a killing spree? I think if you do something like that, then claim you're insane, there aren't a lot of people who are going to argue with you there.

But like KM mentioned, the definition that applies is: did she know at the time that what she was doing was wrong?

Maybe we should change the terminology. Our understanding of mental illness has evolved since that definition was made. Maybe the term mentally non-culpable should be used instead. Of course the woman is insane. In this case, she's also culpable. She wasn't, for example, deluded into thinking she was giving her children baths. She knew she was drowning them. Whatever paranoid rants she gives as excuses after the fact doesn't change the fact she knew at the time she was comitting murder.

That said, I think she shouldn't be put to death. I think she should be studied like a lab rat. This isn't the first woman who lost her mind and killed her kids, and she won't be the last. I think this is something that needs to be dissected and understood. I think it needs to be understood so well that warning signs can be detected so that this kind of thing can be prevented. I think putting her to death won't do a damned thing to bring those babies back, but figuring out all there is to know about what triggers this kind of thing might save other kids in the future. I'd be willing to trade in vengeance for prevention, myself.

And what's up with the husband? If I knew my spouse was that ill, I would not let it go untreated, and I sure as hell wouldn't let my kids go unsupervised around said sick spouse. Ignorant? Stupid? Or just as fucked up? Either way, why is he off the hook?

 

[Svedish_Chef]

Naudiz ROCKS - ICQ.

this is a random threadjacking.. dont mind me

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

The whole issue of sanity strikes me as odd in cases like these. Of course the woman is insane. What sane person murders her own children?

There's a lot of confusion over the terms here. Insanity is commonly used as a synonym for "mentally ill" or "deviant", but its proper legal definition is non-culpability for reasons of mental illness, so your terminology change would replace one term with another of the same meaning. Insanity has no meaning for mental health professionals except in the forensic sense when they're asked their professional opinions regarding whether a person meets standards for legal culpability. If you concede Andrea Yates is insane, by definition you're also saying that she's not legally culpable because she's mentally ill.

You make a good point, though. Whatever else that is said, it seems that Yates murdered her kids intentionally with understanding of what she was doing. The question is how terrible a crime murder is when the murderer is acting under the sincere false belief that something far worse than death awaits her victims if she doesn't kill them. Does that amount to a mitigating factor? I think it certainly does.

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

I'm vastly irritated that people would take a cut and dried issue, murder, and try to turn it into some sort of stupid feministic sob story. She's not responsible for what she did cause she was psychotic. You know, that applies to Jeffrey Dahmer, John Wayne Gacy, Elizabeth Bathory, and Dr. Josef Eichmann, too. She's not special because she's a woman and psychosis is not an excuse to evade responsibility and accountability.

Maybe you'll be less irritated if you consider the definition of psychosis. It's most basic definition is "any state of grossly impaired reality testing". Psychosis isn't a diagnosis as it is a symptom. It can result from a list of causes as long as my arm, most commonly including drugs, infections, metabolic diseases, brain tumors, hypoxia, head injury, hormonal imbalances (as following pregnancy in Andrea Yates' case), and for reasons less well understood (schizophrenia falls into this category). People who are psychotic seem to grossly misperceive the world around them and often lack the faculties to question their sense misperceptions.

I had schizophrenic patient who believed the phlegm in the back of her throat was trying to kill her. I had another who believed that my saying his name would kill him. If you firmly held that particular belief, wouldn't you fight desparately someone before you'd let that person speak your name?

The killers you name probably had mental pathology, but they weren't psychotic. The fact that serial serial killers attempt to hide their behaviors and can be among the most socially appropriate of people when they want to shows that they aren't psychotic. Those kinds of people are usually given the label "sociopaths" or people with "antisocial personality" meaning that they utterly lack a normal sense of sympathy and empathy for the feelings of others. In simple terms, they lack a conscience. That's a considerable difference from misperceiving reality.

The popular tendency to confuse these disorders causes endless confusion. Most doctors don't even appreciate the differences. We've got along way to go with mental illness education.

 

[JazzManJim]

I'm not having a problem here.

She killed her five children on purpose. They struggled, one of them to the point where her hair was clutched in its dead hand. She did it one right after the other. She knew she did it. She knew she did wrong. She admitted that she did it and that it was wrong to do. It was deliberate, premeditated, and methodical.

The people have decreed that premeditated, heinous murder may require her to be put to death as penalty for her actions.

I say do it.

Then let's take a look at the husband who apparently had some warning that something like this could happen. I'm talking culpability here.

 

[alexandraaah]

I'm not having a problem here.

She killed her five children on purpose. They struggled, one of them to the point where her hair was clutched in its dead hand. She did it one right after the other. She knew she did it. She knew she did wrong. She admitted that she did it and that it was wrong to do. It was deliberate, premeditated, and methodical.

The people have decreed that premeditated, heinous murder may require her to be put to death as penalty for her actions.

I say do it.

Then let's take a look at the husband who apparently had some warning that something like this could happen. I'm talking culpability here.

I'm not going to say they are the exact same thing, but I find this view hypocritical in the face of your views on abortion.

 

[JazzManJim]

I'm not going to say they are the exact same thing, but I find this view hypocritical in the face of your views on abortion.

See my post in the other thread.

 

[naudiz]

There's a lot of confusion over the terms here. Insanity is commonly used as a synonym for "mentally ill" or "deviant", but its proper legal definition is non-culpability for reasons of mental illness, so your terminology change would replace one term with another of the same meaning.

Exactly my point. The proper definition of insanity means a lack of culpability, but the meaning of the term has evolved in common use. Speaking as someone who has studied linguistics extensively, once something hits common use, you're better of to just let it go, because it ain't coming back.

Language shifts over time, and the meaning of the term 'insanity', for better or worse, has come to be associated with mental illness, and the issue of non-culpability has become clouded and misunderstood. Change the term to 'non-culpability' in the legal sense, and you're back on track. Well, till the language evolves again. Common use is a relentless bitch.

When I say I think someone who kills their children is obviously insane, I mean that this obviously isn't rational, stable behavior in terms that our society has collectively defined it. That's what people think about when they think about insanity these days.

The word 'faggot' used to mean a bundle of sticks for burning. If I said I'm going to throw some faggots on the fire, it would have vastly different implications now than it used to, and those implications are ones I would never wish to express. So, just as I would say 'kindling' instead, I think 'non-culpability' should be used since insanity no longer means exactly what it used to.

We need to start taking into consideration the legal implications of the multi-layered thing that is the human psyche, but until we do, we need to find a term that says what it means and nothing else. It's those common use implications that are causing the hub-bub, bub.

 

[Siren]

I understand the rage for Andrea, but not so much for Yates

 

[Guest]

She killed her five children on purpose

I'm not having a problem here.

She killed her five children on purpose. They struggled, one of them to the point where her hair was clutched in its dead hand. She did it one right after the other. She knew she did it. She knew she did wrong. She admitted that she did it and that it was wrong to do. It was deliberate, premeditated, and methodical.

The people have decreed that premeditated, heinous murder may require her to be put to death as penalty for her actions.

I say do it.

Then let's take a look at the husband who apparently had some warning that something like this could happen. I'm talking culpability here.

I could not agree with you more. It would be one
thing if she killed some adult. but no she killed
5 kids. And chased the last one down like a dog.
I say kill the bitch and the ass hole husband. He
was aware how sick she was.

 

[WriterDom]

Death would be the most merciful sentence if it were carried out quickly.

 

[Basia]

I opted to kill her, and after what I say, it shall be made clear.

Picture this: Your a child, running scared through your locked house, trying to escape. You hear your mother call out to you, but you know that she has killed your baby sister and your three little brothers. Your first impuls is to go to Mommy. Mommy can fix everything. But Mommy brings you into the bathroom, and you see the dead boddies of your siblings. You scream, but no one can hear you. You cry for Mommy not to do this to you, but she does. Your seven years old, and the last thing you do in your life is fight for it while your mother drowns you in the same bathtub that your four siblings just met their fate in. You are seven years old, and your life ends in a bathtub filled with urin (sp) fecies (sp) and the vomit of your baby sister, and your three little brothers. You are seven years old.

 

[Siren]

well said Basia