What makes a good/worthy sub?

[neci]

Wayne and Garth had it figured out.

 

[Netzach]

Anything that will help clarify the mud in my head, really.

There are so many different components to this and so many different parts that overlap that I feel like I'm running blind.

As far as the characteristics of a good sub goes, surely there must be some. Anyone on the street can come up with three characteristics of a good parent, a good doctor, a good friend... but what are the characteristics of a good sub?

Is it the ability to fully and hand over that part of myself, fully and without reserve, to a man who I have faith to Dom me? Is it the willingness to take pain? The ability to let go of who I am in the vanilla world and immerse myself in his pleasure? The willingness to be pushed as close to the edge as I can without falling?

Sometimes, after certain conversations, I wonder if perhaps my views of submission aren't skewed... if maybe it isn't simply submission but something else that I don't know the name for.

In recent off the board conversations I'd mentioned that when I totally submit - the go limp, roll over and present your tummy submit - that I'm trusting the Dom with a piece of my whole, a piece of who I truly am: mind, body, and spirit. The response 98% of the time is 'then you must love the Dom.' I don't, actually, but they can't understand that there is a difference between love and the needed respect and regard to sub to that level. Is this a characteristic of a sub, good or not, or is it something else?

Is the inability to separate my submissiveness from who I am in my heart of hearts, the inability to take it off and put it on like a shirt a characteristic of a sub, or is it a characteristic that goes by degrees or is it simply an over-excited noobie in need of tempering?

This is truly one of those times where I can't decide if my Virgo tendency to pick apart every detail is a benefit or a detriment.
*sigh*

Either way, I suppose the answer to what I'm looking for is 'I don't exactly know yet, this just seemed like the logical place to start.' It's one of those things that I'll know it when I see it. :S

I don't think romantic love is mandatory. It works very well sometimes and sometimes it's a total hinderance to the kind of respect and focus that you might want to cultivate.

 

[satindesire]

Anything that will help clarify the mud in my head, really.

Here's the thing...I think you are asking us to quantify an unquantifiable.

You're asking us "What makes a good submissive?"

That is the same as "What makes a good person?" or "What makes a good lover?"

Everyone will have different opinions about what's good and what's not. Thing is, we can tell you what WE may feel makes a good (insert word here) but no one can tell you what YOUR DOM will think.

You will have to ask him. Because if he's the one you're trying to please, then it's HIS brain you need to pick.

 

[chy_girl]

I don't think romantic love is mandatory. It works very well sometimes and sometimes it's a total hinderance to the kind of respect and focus that you might want to cultivate.

You would be surprised how many people think that my total submission to a man is equal to my being in love with him or that I wish to be loved in return.

It can make a girl feel a bit like a fridged Ice Bitch to have to reiterate that said woman is not seeking a boyfriend, but a Dom, and then see the reactions.

 

[chy_girl]

Here's the thing...I think you are asking us to quantify an unquantifiable.

You're asking us "What makes a good submissive?"

That is the same as "What makes a good person?" or "What makes a good lover?"

Everyone will have different opinions about what's good and what's not. Thing is, we can tell you what WE may feel makes a good (insert word here) but no one can tell you what YOUR DOM will think.

You will have to ask him. Because if he's the one you're trying to please, then it's HIS brain you need to pick.

But it is a wide variety of opinions that I'm looking for. When I suss things out in my head, and at this point the question is only for my personal evaluation, I look at as wide of pool as information as I can. By doing that I'm able to pick through the information and use the pieces to form clarifying questions and even out the debate in my head. It's also very common that other questions come up to help narrow down what information I didn't think I needed.

It's an extremely odd way to go about it, but it's the best way I've found to do my critical thinking about things that are large and messy.

And after I've figured out the answers I need for me personally, those which I'm willing to take on as my own, then I'll address the issues with the Dom.

I hope that makes sense...

 

[satindesire]

But it is a wide variety of opinions that I'm looking for. When I suss things out in my head, and at this point the question is only for my personal evaluation, I look at as wide of pool as information as I can. By doing that I'm able to pick through the information and use the pieces to form clarifying questions and even out the debate in my head. It's also very common that other questions come up to help narrow down what information I didn't think I needed.

It's an extremely odd way to go about it, but it's the best way I've found to do my critical thinking about things that are large and messy.

And after I've figured out the answers I need for me personally, those which I'm willing to take on as my own, then I'll address the issues with the Dom.

I hope that makes sense...

Okay, thank you for clarifying that.

 

[ataxia.girl]

I don't think that being negated "an opinion, of their own wants and needs, and their own decisions AT ALL" equates with being treated subhumanly.

Also, I've not seen anybody saying that the pyl cannot have needs or wants or an identity.

R_Falcon expressed that in his case, the submissive "have to see herself as lesser" and more specifically "not as a person" "but her will is lesser, and her needs are lesser, that her identity is lesser, that she and her will and her identity are subordinate to His". He did not say that he sees her as lesser, but that his ideal submissive would be someone that sees herself as such.

At any rate for some pyl, putting it all in their PYL's hand is what they want or need. Even if they do not see themselves as any lesser.

And for some PYL taking it all in their hands, does not mean they consider their pyl a lesser human being.

i think one of the biggest fallacies people make when talking about D/s relationships is this idea that everyone has to agree. i'm sure its related to consent somehow and also influenced by the online culture wherein which you cannot physically force a pyl to do anything.

i remember a conversation with Daddy awhile back. One morning i was going on and said something to the effect that my purpose wasn't just sexual. i cannot remember the context now because of what Daddy said then. He just looked at me and laughed and said "that's why you're here. That's the entire reason you are here, for me to fuck." He wasn't playing. It wasn't said in an effort to draw a reaction in me or humiliate me. It was a simple statement of his reality. In his reality that is my primary function.

As much as Daddy loves me there are times i don't feel quite real. Like a doll.

i am sure you all have had the experience where you meet someone and seem to hit it off but find out pretty soon that they have basically made you up in their head. That you are really just a physical placeholder for their personal ideal and they are blind to you being anything else. That has a bit of a sub-human feel to it because they don't see you as an individual outside of their own fantasy world.

In some respects it is like that with Daddy and me. He has even told me "I can pretend" and no matter how he lavishes me with affection and no matter how gentle he is i can never quite shake that sense of being a sort of living, breathing doll acquired to fill a place in his fantasy. It's not like this all the time but it often is.

my key point is he has never really needed me to agree to fill this spot. He sees me as his little dolly and there's basically nothing i can do to change it. my agreement or disagreement really only matters if i take it into my silly little head to stop showing up for the party and that isn't going to happen.

i have a "right" to disagree and have an opinion because i simply have an opinion. my opinion, which is not a right but simply a fact, is irrelevant unless Daddy decides it isn't. i would like to understand better what people mean when they say they have a "right to disagree." How in the world do you take away something that a thinking brain can't really help?

 

[satindesire]

i have a "right" to disagree and have an opinion because i simply have an opinion. my opinion, which is not a right but simply a fact, is irrelevant unless Daddy decides it isn't. i would like to understand better what people mean when they say they have a "right to disagree." How in the world do you take away something that a thinking brain can't really help?

There could be two reasons:

One- "The Right To Disagree" may be in the context that a person is saying "I don't agree with you, but that doesn't mean we can't get along anyway."

Two- Some people, while talking about things like this, often act like they are the only person in the universe whose opinion matters. Sometimes you have to say "I have the right to disagaree" to remind those people that you are a human being whose opinion matters just as much as theirs. Of course, it's their prerogative to regard or disregard said opinion, but that doesn't mean that the opinion VANISHES when it's not agreed with.

But that's just my opinion.

 

[where]

Here's the thing...I think you are asking us to quantify an unquantifiable.

You're asking us "What makes a good submissive?"

That is the same as "What makes a good person?" or "What makes a good lover?"

Everyone will have different opinions about what's good and what's not. Thing is, we can tell you what WE may feel makes a good (insert word here) but no one can tell you what YOUR DOM will think.

You will have to ask him. Because if he's the one you're trying to please, then it's HIS brain you need to pick.

see, this is why someone out there needs to do a PhD (using a qualitative methodology of course!) into the BDSM scene.

 

[chy_girl]

see, this is why someone out there needs to do a PhD (using a qualitative methodology of course!) into the BDSM scene.

For some reason I have a hard time thinking that would make it past the review boards very easy.

 

[where]

For some reason I have a hard time thinking that would make it past the review boards very easy.

I know people who have done more contentious PhDs


It's an under researched area that is increasingly impacting on modern day relationships. issues around gender identity, feminism and new masculinities all come into play, not to mention notions of consent.

 

[satindesire]

see, this is why someone out there needs to do a PhD (using a qualitative methodology of course!) into the BDSM scene.

I actually wanted to do my PhD on BDSM. For cereal.

 

[chy_girl]

I know people who have done more contentious PhDs


It's an under researched area that is increasingly impacting on modern day relationships. issues around gender identity, feminism and new masculinities all come into play, not to mention notions of consent.

Yes, but those are fairly mainstream concepts now. Unfortunately, BDSM is still listed rather negatively in the DSM IV. And if it's in the bible, it must be so...

An interesting article about BDSM and mental health

I agree that psychological, sociological and anthropological studies regarding BDSM would come up with a ton of useful and highly interesting results, even if they aren't results one would expect. However, I doubt that getting the subject matter past an ethics review board, or a peer review board, or a funding board while putting forward a hypothesis that BDSM is ok and perhaps not qualified as mental illness/pathology would go over well.

 

[ataxia.girl]

There could be two reasons:

One- "The Right To Disagree" may be in the context that a person is saying "I don't agree with you, but that doesn't mean we can't get along anyway."

Two- Some people, while talking about things like this, often act like they are the only person in the universe whose opinion matters. Sometimes you have to say "I have the right to disagaree" to remind those people that you are a human being whose opinion matters just as much as theirs. Of course, it's their prerogative to regard or disregard said opinion, but that doesn't mean that the opinion VANISHES when it's not agreed with.

But that's just my opinion.

This is where the whole part-time vs full-time thing comes into play for me. In my vanilla marriage with kids and a career no way would i want to function in a relationship where my opinion didn't matter. Take away a lot of those responsibilities and i'm going to be much more inclined to take the leap into that kind of realtionship. Part-time, in the abscence of any shared responsibilities its not even a question. Daddy has as much power as he cares to weild. i could walk away but he's already proven my threat of doing so is not going to change his behavior.

If i woke up one day and pigs were flying and suddenly i was free to be Daddy's 24/7 little girl i would know what i was getting myself into. It would consist of a long period of captivity and isolation where he was pretty much my only face to face human interaction. i wouldn't be treated as subhuman but definitely sub adult and that can feel much the same when your rational, adult opinions are ignored. i am a non-con\reluctance\resistance addict though. i think he would trust me enough to do it to, no matter how much i begged and pleaded to be let go. The one thing i would never do is tell. It would be a terrifying game but if you're going to play you have to finish.

So i guess what makes me worth it to him is my own sense of totality and fatalism. That he can do whatever he wants and although i may complain i'll never tell. That's kind of what i meant by it just depends on whether PYL get from the pyl in question something they want\need enough to put up with the pyl's bullshit. i have my littleness. my inability to define, articulate, and enforce healthy limits for myself. A desire for total powerlessness. An inability to walk away even if i hate the way things are, although i do throw nasty tantrums.

In other words our kinks match up. He's into abduction\captivity and keeping a little girl as a sex dolly, pet, toy, etc. and i'm into being on the receiving end.

Most PYL's tell me i am a waste of time because i am not all that submissive nor am i all that obedient and i have a really impertinent tongue that likes to speak uncomfortable truths at the moment they are likely to cause the most psychological discomfort for the receiver. Partly just to see what will happen

 

[00Syd]

But that's a choice... that's your choice that you make, and I'm sure it's part of what you want.

You know that you want his will/wants/desire to be satisfied and you indulge them. It's not in lieu of your own happiness. That's what makes you happy. Furthermore, you want for him to impose those desires upon you.

It's control. You give him that control and give him the responsibility of having power over your... being.

That's part of the allure (on both sides) and a main part of why what brings us all together.

Please don't explain to me my own wants and desires, and what makes me happy. Its unbecoming.

I don't always want what he wants. And that's not like an "oh, tee hee stop it" kind of dislike, I'll actually deeply dislike what's happening and would like it to stop. Yes, it is my choice to let him do it anyway, but that doesn't mean that I want it any more. Trust me, indulging his desires rarely makes me happy. In fact, it very often makes me miserable. But I've already decided that that's okay. While I might be miserable in the moment, I know that everything will be fine in the end. He'll have gotten what he wants, and I'll be fine. No harm done.

 

[satindesire]

*snip*
Most PYL's tell me i am a waste of time because i am not all that submissive nor am i all that obedient and i have a really impertinent tongue that likes to speak uncomfortable truths at the moment they are likely to cause the most psychological discomfort for the receiver. Partly just to see what will happen

See, this is why I find BDSM absolutely fascinating. It seems that the varieties in BDSM relationships are even more varied than vanilla relationships. The differences between each one can be extreme and amazing!

 

[~Haze~]

Please don't explain to me my own wants and desires, and what makes me happy. Its unbecoming.

I don't always want what he wants. And that's not like an "oh, tee hee stop it" kind of dislike, I'll actually deeply dislike what's happening and would like it to stop. Yes, it is my choice to let him do it anyway, but that doesn't mean that I want it any more. Trust me, indulging his desires rarely makes me happy. In fact, it very often makes me miserable. But I've already decided that that's okay. While I might be miserable in the moment, I know that everything will be fine in the end. He'll have gotten what he wants, and I'll be fine. No harm done.

Hi Syd.

When I replied, I wasn't analyzing you and your relationship specifically. I was making a general statement about the choices we make when we engage in a post your relationship.

Relationships are often a series of compromises and usually pretty complex - at least to those of us involved in them. Particularly a PYR.

People give up some of the micro for the sake of the macro and I was simply saying that it's usually a choice that's consciously made.

 

[rida]

The only objection I have is "needs." I operate from a position of inferiority/superiority with my slave. We are both kinked around that concept in relation to each other, and it feeds the dynamic. But needs? No. When you talk about human *needs* you are talking about the point where you get your ass humble and listen.

My *wants* trump my slaves's wants. My slave's *needs* trump my wants. My needs and my slave's needs are equally valid, and need to be navigated in the name of the relationship.

I don't believe there's really another way to do that and have a viable relationship. Even if you might say otherwise in the name of instilling awe, I think a successful relationship involves some deference of what the Dominant wants at any given moment to what the submissive needs or is actually capable of.

Yes. Thank you for stating it much better then I could.

There is however also a mind-set among some PYL that the pyl should abdicate to any needs to function as a total toy and object for the PYL.

To my westerns sensibility, It takes a pyl that knows what she/he is getting into for the relationship to be on this side of the abuse line.

But I exchanged messages with a japanese female slave, and the dynamic there would definitely rise a ruckus of "abuse!" call on this board. The fact is thou that she could walk away anytime and there would not be repercussions, beside ending the relationship. But to stay in the relationship she has to subject herself to his wants, his needs and his orders. Thinking about the pyl's needs has probably never even crossed that spedific PYL's mind.

*snip*

i remember a conversation with Daddy awhile back. One morning i was going on and said something to the effect that my purpose wasn't just sexual. i cannot remember the context now because of what Daddy said then. He just looked at me and laughed and said "that's why you're here. That's the entire reason you are here, for me to fuck." He wasn't playing. It wasn't said in an effort to draw a reaction in me or humiliate me. It was a simple statement of his reality. In his reality that is my primary function.

*snip*

my key point is he has never really needed me to agree to fill this spot. He sees me as his little dolly and there's basically nothing i can do to change it. my agreement or disagreement really only matters if i take it into my silly little head to stop showing up for the party and that isn't going to happen.

i have a "right" to disagree and have an opinion because i simply have an opinion. my opinion, which is not a right but simply a fact, is irrelevant unless Daddy decides it isn't. i would like to understand better what people mean when they say they have a "right to disagree." How in the world do you take away something that a thinking brain can't really help?

Exactly.

Regarding the first part, at the end of the day, it is about sex. That was stated very simply and very early in the relationship: he is a Sadist, it turns him on. Simply as that.

As for the disagreeing issue, it is not that I cannot disagree with the Sadist. My right to disagree has not been taken away. And unless he wishes to take my opinion into consideration, my expressing the disagreement could lead to consequences. Or not.

Please don't explain to me my own wants and desires, and what makes me happy. Its unbecoming.

I don't always want what he wants. And that's not like an "oh, tee hee stop it" kind of dislike, I'll actually deeply dislike what's happening and would like it to stop. Yes, it is my choice to let him do it anyway, but that doesn't mean that I want it any more. Trust me, indulging his desires rarely makes me happy. In fact, it very often makes me miserable. But I've already decided that that's okay. While I might be miserable in the moment, I know that everything will be fine in the end. He'll have gotten what he wants, and I'll be fine. No harm done.

Yes. In both relationships. I rarely if ever want what they want.

With Hubby, at time I might even need to sleep. Or want to do something else. But he wants something and wants it now. And I make myself available and in fulfilling his wants I give him what he needs.

And I too know that while I might be miserable during, at the end they will be happy/satisfied. And knowing that I contributed to it will make me happy.

And life goes on.

 

[eastern sun]

In my opinion, a good and/or worthy sub is one who is actually capable of pleasing the dominant one on a regular basis. (which is different than wanting to please or trying to please)

 

[Netzach]

You would be surprised how many people think that my total submission to a man is equal to my being in love with him or that I wish to be loved in return.

It can make a girl feel a bit like a fridged Ice Bitch to have to reiterate that said woman is not seeking a boyfriend, but a Dom, and then see the reactions.

It is extremely perplexing to the mainstream, who are basically afraid of women who don't conflate their sexuality with being in lurrrrve automatically. That's a very suspect stance. Stick to your guns. Is it highly sexual for you, even? For some people it's not directly sexual, even.

 

[Netzach]

Yes. Thank you for stating it much better then I could.

There is however also a mind-set among some PYL that the pyl should abdicate to any needs to function as a total toy and object for the PYL.

To my westerns sensibility, It takes a pyl that knows what she/he is getting into for the relationship to be on this side of the abuse line.

But I exchanged messages with a japanese female slave, and the dynamic there would definitely rise a ruckus of "abuse!" call on this board. The fact is thou that she could walk away anytime and there would not be repercussions, beside ending the relationship. But to stay in the relationship she has to subject herself to his wants, his needs and his orders. Thinking about the pyl's needs has probably never even crossed that spedific PYL's mind.

I take your word for it, but I also have to pipe up as a PYL that he/she? may have done this with it being completely un-obvious, even subconscious - simply out of a strategic need, it has probably been taken into consideration with no one any the wiser. I'm not saying that everyone has to be clued in, but a PYL in a long term relationship is probably doing a lot more strategic planning than people realize goes into it from the outside.

I work hard on my callous bitch stuff. I can call everything that H coasts comfortably on to a total halt even now. If I had more energy he might still be none the wiser. A relationship with heavy fear doses in it sounds hot as hell to me, but it's not one I can pull off being as sick as I can get. I can't figure that one out.

 

[Adakgirl]

Yep Easternsun, I agree
Ready
Willing and
Able (capable)
to please the Dominant

One characteristic of a good submissive would be a person who has an inherent sexuality about them.

 

[rida]

I take your word for it, but I also have to pipe up as a PYL that he/she? may have done this with it being completely un-obvious, even subconscious - simply out of a strategic need, it has probably been taken into consideration with no one any the wiser. I'm not saying that everyone has to be clued in, but a PYL in a long term relationship is probably doing a lot more strategic planning than people realize goes into it from the outside.

I work hard on my callous bitch stuff. I can call everything that H coasts comfortably on to a total halt even now. If I had more energy he might still be none the wiser. A relationship with heavy fear doses in it sounds hot as hell to me, but it's not one I can pull off being as sick as I can get. I can't figure that one out.

I understand what you mean and I'm sure many PYL are actually planning their "asshole" persona around the specific needs of their pyl. And perhaps even the one I was speaking of is actually doing it. All I know is what the slave told me.

But there are PYL that really do not consider their pyl needs worth worrying about. Perhaps the difference lies in the desire for the relationship to be "long term" or not.

Some might rather make sure the relationship is long lasting. Others might rather get all they want all the time until it lasts. And then move on.
And sometime the "all or nothing" folk might meet their perfectly matching pyl that will take it ... forever.

Different models for different relationships.

Just as an aside, I do not consider being a PYL an easy job. Being a partner in a successful relationship of any flavor always imply that both parties are doing their damn best to make it work. Sometime one side is just better then the other

 

[southernsub23]

i think it depends...

a sub may be worthy to one Master, but not even remotely worthy to another.

 

[Netzach]

I understand what you mean and I'm sure many PYL are actually planning their "asshole" persona around the specific needs of their pyl. And perhaps even the one I was speaking of is actually doing it. All I know is what the slave told me.

But there are PYL that really do not consider their pyl needs worth worrying about. Perhaps the difference lies in the desire for the relationship to be "long term" or not.

Some might rather make sure the relationship is long lasting. Others might rather get all they want all the time until it lasts. And then move on.
And sometime the "all or nothing" folk might meet their perfectly matching pyl that will take it ... forever.

Different models for different relationships.

Just as an aside, I do not consider being a PYL an easy job. Being a partner in a successful relationship of any flavor always imply that both parties are doing their damn best to make it work. Sometime one side is just better then the other

True, it absolutely takes all kinds. I can see the appeal of a shorter term interaction particularly, where this isn't the case.