Unconditional Love

[MsWorthy]

*I realize that the heart of this discussion depends on what your definition of love is; however, I hope that we can find some common ground for the sake of the discussion.*

I have read several posts on different threads that speak of unconditional love for someone, then go on to state the conditions of that love. For example, (this is a compilation and aimed at no one in particular, please know that I mean no judgement nor disrespect toward anyone) "I love my close friends unconditionally and would do anything they asked of me, (here comes the condition) because I know they would never ask me to do anything that goes against my ethics or would cause me too much guilt."

I pose this topic, not to criticize anyone, but to point out that most love is conditional, and correctly so. In my opinion, only children are given unconditional love - loved no matter what they do, who they hurt, how cruel they are, and how selfish they are.

It seems to me that to love an adult unconditionally is to ask for abuse, to open onself up to being taken advantage of, to turn a blind eye on someone's failings (as opposed to faults which we all have, I use failings to mean something one is not trying to improve).

Having made my reasoning clear (I hope), I offer this for discussion:

Do you feel that, by the nature of the power exchange, couples in a d/s relationship are even more conditional than other couples. In other words, are the conditions of our acceptance, commitment, and love for a partner more stringent than the conditions a 'nilla person might have?

 

[KillerMuffin]

*I realize that the heart of this discussion depends on what your definition of love is; however, I hope that we can find some common ground for the sake of the discussion.*

I have read several posts on different threads that speak of unconditional love for someone, then go on to state the conditions of that love. For example, (this is a compilation and aimed at no one in particular, please know that I mean no judgement nor disrespect toward anyone) "I love my close friends unconditionally and would do anything they asked of me, (here comes the condition) because I know they would never ask me to do anything that goes against my ethics or would cause me too much guilt."

I pose this topic, not to criticize anyone, but to point out that most love is conditional, and correctly so. In my opinion, only children are given unconditional love - loved no matter what they do, who they hurt, how cruel they are, and how selfish they are.

It seems to me that to love an adult unconditionally is to ask for abuse, to open onself up to being taken advantage of, to turn a blind eye on someone's failings (as opposed to faults which we all have, I use failings to mean something one is not trying to improve).

Having made my reasoning clear (I hope), I offer this for discussion:

Do you feel that, by the nature of the power exchange, couples in a d/s relationship are even more conditional than other couples. In other words, are the conditions of our acceptance, commitment, and love for a partner more stringent than the conditions a 'nilla person might have?

How utterly insulting.

I'm not BDSM so therefore I have an easy life to live. It's easy for me to find someone to love and to love me. It's easy to find someone with whom I'm sexually compatible with because I'm not a BDSMer. Unconditional love comes easy for me and for people who love me. I don't have "scenes" so I don't have compromise, negotiate, or open myself to an astonishing level of trust to carry on a relationship.

Give me a friggin' break.

Your conditions aren't any more stringent than mine. They're just different. Different does not equate to more difficult, more stringent, or more anything. It just means different. Just because I'm 'Nilla like 75% or the world doesn't mean that I'm sexually compatible with 75% of the world.

Do you have any idea how my difficult it is to be me or in my relationship? No. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to negotiate a working 'nilla relationship? Apparently not.

Bigotry works both ways.

 

[Persephone36]

What a *great* topic!

Lol! Can you tell this is a topic I really like?

Do you mind if I make one point MsWorthy? I *don't* think children are given unconditional love -- I think parents *think* they're giving it...but that as children we learn that love is conditional. That's where our conditioning about love comes from -- that "we should have known better" "bad girl" "what were you thinking?" -- oh, and a whole slew of others.

I'm just beginning to study Buddhism and one of the basic tenets is that the spiritual practise doesn't really begin -- until the beating stops. That is the self-beating, the lacking of self-acceptance. It's a constant process of learning to love one's self unconditionally. Something truly none of us do. Because we were conditioned as children, all of us, that we were each somehow not worthy to be loved without conditions. One of the Buddhist teachers I like, Cheri Huber, calls it "karmic conditioning"

I do believe in boundaries though. I believe that a person in order not to co-dependent (actually -- ugh, a term I sort of hate) has to know their emotional boundaries. Has to spend the time exploring what they are for themselves. And of course, it's a process that continues throughout the course of one's life. But the basic one, to me, is being true to my nature -- okay, lol, first discovering who that person really is -- and then being true to that person, me.

Accepting someone else without conditions to me doesn't mean that you have to ignore your own boundaries for their sake. It means -- accepting them, in this moment for who and what they are -- seeing the real them, with all their flaws and foibles. And accepting that being a true friend, or lover for that matter, means being true to who you are first and honoring your own boundaries.

If something is asked of me that I feel breaks a boundary or a trust (or is the other person I feel breaks a boundary or trust within the relationship) -- I think it's important for the relationship to recognize that and point it out. Not to do it or to let it go simply because I love the person and accept them for who they are. But to discuss it. That way -- I'm sharing myself with them, I'm not sublimating something of myself because I've made some hard and fast rule in my mind. Sharing myself with another -- and honoring who they are with loving kindness -- I think that's a genuine coming together of two individuals.

Hmmm, I think I had a bit of a ramble there. How that influences a D/s relationship vs. a 'nilla one? Well, I think the issues of trust and boundaries are honestly the same. I think however that those issues arise more honestly and forthrightly -- earlier-- in a D/s relationship. But hell, I'm new to all this -- so that's an uneducated guesstimate on my part.

And after all -- everyone's an individual -- each relationship is individual. I get uncomfortable generalizing -- although I'll be one of the first people to do it, lol.

Okay, well -- I don't know if that helps the discussion or just gets it off course. But it's my two cents for the moment.

P.

 

[A Desert Rose]

How utterly insulting.

I'm not BDSM so therefore I have an easy life to live. It's easy for me to find someone to love and to love me. It's easy to find someone with whom I'm sexually compatible with because I'm not a BDSMer. Unconditional love comes easy for me and for people who love me. I don't have "scenes" so I don't have compromise, negotiate, or open myself to an astonishing level of trust to carry on a relationship.

Give me a friggin' break.

Your conditions aren't any more stringent than mine. They're just different. Different does not equate to more difficult, more stringent, or more anything. It just means different. Just because I'm 'Nilla like 75% or the world doesn't mean that I'm sexually compatible with 75% of the world.

Do you have any idea how my difficult it is to be me or in my relationship? No. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to negotiate a working 'nilla relationship? Apparently not.

Bigotry works both ways.

~~~~~~~~~~~

If I read MzW correctly, and I believe I do, she is throwing out some ideas for discussion. I read nothing insulting, personal or bigotted in her comments.
Soon as I have some time to think it over, I may have something coherent to add here.
Good Topic of discussion MzW.

 

[Ebonyfire]

I think I strive for unconditional love, but many times fall sort of the goal. I do not think kids get it either. Look at some of the children we raise cause WE adults fall short of the goal of unconditional love, and place unfair expectations on them?

As for my friends, when I say unconditional I mean I let them be themselves, even if I may disagree with what they are doing I still love them and they are my friends. Unconditional love has to do with ME and MY responses. they do no thave to confrm to any norm for my positive regard.

That means that sometimes if they are doing something that may have a negative impact on me, I may choose to love them from afar.

Ebony

 

[Persephone36]

Re: Re: Unconditional Love

I think I strive for unconditional love, but many times fall sort of the goal. I do not think kids get it either. Look at some of the children we raise cause WE adults fall short of the goal of unconditional love, and place unfair expectations on them?

As for my friends, when I say unconditional I mean I let them be themselves, even if I may disagree with what they are doing I still love them and they are my friends. Unconditional love has to do with ME and MY responses. they do no thave to confrm to any norm for my positive regard.

That means that sometimes if they are doing something that may have a negative impact on me, I may choose to love them from afar.

Ebony

You just said that a lot more succinctly than I did Eb, lol.

P.

 

[Persephone36]

Oh, I meant to add -- just in response to KillerMuffin's post.

I can see how you might have taken MsWorthy's topic to have a slant that insinuates that unconditional love and what it is -- is different in relationships that are primarily 'nilla vs. bdsm ones. Or that there's even validity to that idea.

I had the same thought, but it just didn't hit me the same way as you. I just chose not to read it the way you did -- but I can understand how you might take it that way. Obviously, it's for MsWorthy to clarify.

KM -- I do think you have an excellent point that relationships are relationships -- we are all human, we all have the same difficulties in connecting to one another -- and indeed, in connecting to ourselves. No one group of people has an advantage over another concerning the experiences of being human. We're all equal. I believe -- we may all be taking different paths -- but we're ALL on the same journey.

P.

 

[~Dream~]

re:love

Oh, I meant to add -- just in response to KillerMuffin's post.



KM -- I do think you have an excellent point that relationships are relationships -- we are all human, we all have the same difficulties in connecting to one another -- and indeed, in connecting to ourselves. No one group of people has an advantage over another concerning the experiences of being human. We're all equal. I believe -- we may all be taking different paths -- but we're ALL on the same journey.

P.

my love for my children and my man IS unconditional,but we ARE all human tho this is the truth..our circumstances may be quite different and our opinions will vary but human we are unless some damn Alien came and cloned my Master when I WASNT LOOKING!!

 

[Vulpesvulpes]

My .02

What passion this thread incites!

I do think it is harder to find a partner for a bdsm relationship simply by virtue of the fact that there are a whole host of compatability issues in addition to those imposed by a vanilla relationship.

I personally believe that "unconditional love" is an ideal and therefore impossible for mere mortals to achieve.

Love is an investment. If you give 100%, you stand gain a lot but you can also lose everything.

I personally do not have the emotional strength to handle having my heart broken twice. Therefore, I can allow myself to love someone only if I know that love is being returned. The minute I think she doesn't love me anymore, I have to withdraw my love for my own emotional health.

I know that sounds clinical and cold but that's how I have to live to stop the voices in my head.

 

[Cirrus]

I don't think there is ANY such thing as unconditional love. There is love with very limited conditions, but they are still there.

For example, we are supposed to love our parents even if we don't like them. This is an issue that I'm personally struggling with. My mother is/was sadistic and evil, someone who heaped EXTREME emotional and physical abuse on me until I moved out at 17. She has just been diagnosed with colon cancer. As much as I've tried and thought I should, and I cannot make myself care. I do not love her, I do not respect her, and I do not care about her. She has not been a mother to me ever. If she died tomorrow, I couldn't force myself to cry.

I have no kids, but I could not love a child who killed, who was needlessly cruel to other children or to animals, who didn't have basic respect for other human beings. Even if it was my child. No way.

My Dom, my love, is the closest thing I've ever had to unconditional. When I met him, I lied about my age (I had my reasons) and when my conscience got to me and I came clean, he understood why and still loved me. Still, there are things that I know would change his feelings for me, because he has told me. I have forgiven in him things I might not have otherwise for this reason.

I believe you can give only the love you receive...and if that love is full of ifs, ands and buts, so will be the love returned. If you aren't shown love, you can't love in return.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Re: Re: Unconditional Love

You just said that a lot more succinctly than I did Eb, lol.

P.

P. I did not answer your question and it is a good one that deserves answering.

I have found out the hard way, I might add, that I am more successful with my vanilla relationships if I do not change and use the same criteria I use for my D/s relationships.

So now I just have relationships. They vary in intensity and purpose, but they are nonetheless relationships.

It clarifies things for the people involved with me and for myself.

Eb

 

[~Dream~]

love that stays

I don't think there is ANY such thing as unconditional love. There is love with very limited conditions, but they are still there.

My Dom, my love, is the closest thing I've ever had to unconditional. When I met him, I lied about my age (I had my reasons) and when my conscience got to me and I came clean, he understood why and still loved me. Still, there are things that I know would change his feelings for me, because he has told me. I have forgiven in him things I might not have otherwise for this reason.

I believe you can give only the love you receive...and if that love is full of ifs, ands and buts, so will be the love returned. If you aren't shown love, you can't love in return.

you have given me much reason to reflect and I DO RESPECT your opinions greatly but still hold fast to the truth that I DO UNCONDITIONALLY love both my children and my Master as I consider both to be gifts from God to me..Yes my love for my Masteris the newest and purest love I HAVE for I feel that being a MOMGIVES ME A NATURAL BORN LOVE already for my children but I also have known the pain of abuse so I do quite understandwhere you are coming from there also.. I am shown ALOT of love by ARTFUL AND MY CHILDREN AND PERHAPS THAT IS WHY I can say and feel as I do..

 

[artful]

I can say HONESTLY,...

...as NEAR as is POSSIBLE to defining UNCONDITIONAL *LOVE*,...*YES*,...there are THOSE that I can. Even when they do DO something that is REPREHENSIBLE,...causing ME to sever MY ongoing relationship with them,...I *STILL* consider I love them UNCONDITIONALLY.

(even though they FAIL to meet MY expectations)

(JMHO),...but it's MINE,...and I own it.

 

[artful]

An UNWARRANTED post,...

How utterly insulting.

I'm not BDSM so therefore I have an easy life to live. It's easy for me to find someone to love and to love me. It's easy to find someone with whom I'm sexually compatible with because I'm not a BDSMer. Unconditional love comes easy for me and for people who love me. I don't have "scenes" so I don't have compromise, negotiate, or open myself to an astonishing level of trust to carry on a relationship.

Give me a friggin' break.

Your conditions aren't any more stringent than mine. They're just different. Different does not equate to more difficult, more stringent, or more anything. It just means different. Just because I'm 'Nilla like 75% or the world doesn't mean that I'm sexually compatible with 75% of the world.

Do you have any idea how my difficult it is to be me or in my relationship? No. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to negotiate a working 'nilla relationship? Apparently not.

Bigotry works both ways.

...aimed SPECIFICALLY at the thread starter, (MsWorthy), and I suggest a meaningful apology to be offered to MsWorthy from KillerMuffin.

(JMHO),...but it's MINE,...and I own it!

 

[KillerMuffin]

I should apologize to Ms. Worthy?

Give me a very specific and compelling reason why. I'm reasonable. However, right now what I see is a woman attempting to initiating a separatist discussion that puts herself and people like her above others. If I am wrong, and you are more than welcome to prove me wrong, please outline exactly how this might be.

Right now, I'm incredibly insulted. I've put in a great deal of effort into understanding a lifestyle that I am not a part of and in a lot ways was abhorrent to me. I have tried extremely hard to understanding, inasmuch as someone who doesn't practice it, a lifestyle that does not seem sane or reasonable on the surface.

I think I have accomplished that pretty well. I can see a Dom and see a person who is trustworthy and honorable, not a sadistic rapist now. I can see that a sub is an intelligent and rational person, not someone who needs psychiatric help.

The following "You" is completely generic and not aimed at any particular person. You see me as something less than you because I'm not one of you. My relationships don't require the work that yours does. You believe that I'm instantly compatible with everyone else that's not into BDSM because we all fall under your convenient and equally offensive "Vanilla" label. You think that I have it easier than you, you think that I don't have to suffer as much for love as you do, and you think that someone I have this almost Disneyesque life because I don't have to put up with the troubles that you do because you're into BDSM.

I could tell you right now that you have no idea what trust is until you live with a man that can kill you in 10 seconds or less barehanded. A man that has killed other human beings. I could lord my relationship over you because I can and have to do things that you don't and I have to make sacrifices, compromises, and negotiations that you don't. But I don't. My relationship isn't better than anyone elses. It's not harder, it's not easier, it's not comparable to anyone else's. It's just different.

In the past few weeks I've seen a number of threads pop up where people compare their relationships to other people's relationships and judge them. Just like this thread is doing.

So answer her question. When you judge nilla relationships, do you think that they have to work as hard at theirs to make them work as you do yours?

Ms. Worthy may have had the best of intentions, but intentions don't always mean anything. What she did do was continue a cycle of judgmentalism. She began a discussion that was designed to analyze and separate two groups.

You cannot use the word "than" in a comparison situation without making one side superior and one side inferior. Whatever her intentions were, when she said, "In other words, are the conditions of our acceptance, commitment, and love for a partner more stringent than the conditions a 'nilla person might have?" She asked you to judge your relationships against my relationships and decide which one was superior and which one was inferior under these conditions.

This is insulting. Not only to me, but to BDSM. There is no "than." Your relationship is equivalent to mine, not better and not worse.

Every relationship is the same in a lot of respects. We must all meet for the first time. We must all trust. We must all hurt. We must all forgive. We must all compromise. You cannot compare the degree of these things because no relationship is the same as any other relationship. The people aren't the same, they don't have the same needs, wants, desires, or anything else.

My conditions for my relationship are no more or less stringent than yours. You want your relationship to make you happy and to fulfill your needs. So do I.

Now, if you still think that I have apologize for that, artful, then you seriously need to explain to me how I could possibly be wrong and how I could possibly not find myself compared negatively to you inoffensive.

 

[artful]

I should apologize to Ms. Worthy?

Give me a very specific and compelling reason why. I'm reasonable. However, right now what I see is a woman attempting to initiating a separatist discussion that puts herself and people like her above others. If I am wrong, and you are more than welcome to prove me wrong, please outline exactly how this might be.

Right now, I'm incredibly insulted. I've put in a great deal of effort into understanding a lifestyle that I am not a part of and in a lot ways was abhorrent to me. I have tried extremely hard to understanding, inasmuch as someone who doesn't practice it, a lifestyle that does not seem sane or reasonable on the surface.

I think I have accomplished that pretty well. I can see a Dom and see a person who is trustworthy and honorable, not a sadistic rapist now. I can see that a sub is an intelligent and rational person, not someone who needs psychiatric help.

The following "You" is completely generic and not aimed at any particular person. You see me as something less than you because I'm not one of you. My relationships don't require the work that yours does. You believe that I'm instantly compatible with everyone else that's not into BDSM because we all fall under your convenient and equally offensive "Vanilla" label. You think that I have it easier than you, you think that I don't have to suffer as much for love as you do, and you think that someone I have this almost Disneyesque life because I don't have to put up with the troubles that you do because you're into BDSM.

I could tell you right now that you have no idea what trust is until you live with a man that can kill you in 10 seconds or less barehanded. A man that has killed other human beings. I could lord my relationship over you because I can and have to do things that you don't and I have to make sacrifices, compromises, and negotiations that you don't. But I don't. My relationship isn't better than anyone elses. It's not harder, it's not easier, it's not comparable to anyone else's. It's just different.

In the past few weeks I've seen a number of threads pop up where people compare their relationships to other people's relationships and judge them. Just like this thread is doing.

So answer her question. When you judge nilla relationships, do you think that they have to work as hard at theirs to make them work as you do yours?

Ms. Worthy may have had the best of intentions, but intentions don't always mean anything. What she did do was continue a cycle of judgmentalism. She began a discussion that was designed to analyze and separate two groups.

You cannot use the word "than" in a comparison situation without making one side superior and one side inferior. Whatever her intentions were, when she said, "In other words, are the conditions of our acceptance, commitment, and love for a partner more stringent than the conditions a 'nilla person might have?" She asked you to judge your relationships against my relationships and decide which one was superior and which one was inferior under these conditions.

This is insulting. Not only to me, but to BDSM. There is no "than." Your relationship is equivalent to mine, not better and not worse.

Every relationship is the same in a lot of respects. We must all meet for the first time. We must all trust. We must all hurt. We must all forgive. We must all compromise. You cannot compare the degree of these things because no relationship is the same as any other relationship. The people aren't the same, they don't have the same needs, wants, desires, or anything else.

My conditions for my relationship are no more or less stringent than yours. You want your relationship to make you happy and to fulfill your needs. So do I.

Now, if you still think that I have apologize for that, artful, then you seriously need to explain to me how I could possibly be wrong and how I could possibly not find myself compared negatively to you inoffensive.

I am sorry you don't see the NEED for a heartfelt apology.-Art

 

[P. B. Walker]

I am sorry you don't see the NEED for a heartfelt apology.-Art

I don't happen to see the "NEED" either. We are all allowed our opinions here. KM has voiced hers in her own way. And you voiced yours. So let's be grown-ups.

Ciao.

- PBW

 

[WriterDom]

My first reaction was to disagree with Ms, but not to the point where I felt it was insulting. KM, being a flaming nilla, was insulted. But I don't think apologies in either direction are warranted. Not yet, but the night is young.

 

[A Desert Rose]

response to WD

But I don't think apologies in either direction are warranted. Not yet, but the night is young.

LOL Indeed it is.

 

[Lancecastor]

Yikes!

Someone's been in the pickles!

I think the disconnect was your (I think?) assumption that the thread starter was making a value judgement against vanillas.

I didn't read it that way....I read it as self-deprectating.

But that's just me I guess.

I hear an undertone of MzW suggesting BDSM relationships are perhaps more narrow and conservative, generally.

And I agree.

Lance

I should apologize to Ms. Worthy?

Give me a very specific and compelling reason why. I'm reasonable. However, right now what I see is a woman attempting to initiating a separatist discussion that puts herself and people like her above others. If I am wrong, and you are more than welcome to prove me wrong, please outline exactly how this might be.

Right now, I'm incredibly insulted. I've put in a great deal of effort into understanding a lifestyle that I am not a part of and in a lot ways was abhorrent to me. I have tried extremely hard to understanding, inasmuch as someone who doesn't practice it, a lifestyle that does not seem sane or reasonable on the surface.

I think I have accomplished that pretty well. I can see a Dom and see a person who is trustworthy and honorable, not a sadistic rapist now. I can see that a sub is an intelligent and rational person, not someone who needs psychiatric help.

The following "You" is completely generic and not aimed at any particular person. You see me as something less than you because I'm not one of you. My relationships don't require the work that yours does. You believe that I'm instantly compatible with everyone else that's not into BDSM because we all fall under your convenient and equally offensive "Vanilla" label. You think that I have it easier than you, you think that I don't have to suffer as much for love as you do, and you think that someone I have this almost Disneyesque life because I don't have to put up with the troubles that you do because you're into BDSM.

I could tell you right now that you have no idea what trust is until you live with a man that can kill you in 10 seconds or less barehanded. A man that has killed other human beings. I could lord my relationship over you because I can and have to do things that you don't and I have to make sacrifices, compromises, and negotiations that you don't. But I don't. My relationship isn't better than anyone elses. It's not harder, it's not easier, it's not comparable to anyone else's. It's just different.

In the past few weeks I've seen a number of threads pop up where people compare their relationships to other people's relationships and judge them. Just like this thread is doing.

So answer her question. When you judge nilla relationships, do you think that they have to work as hard at theirs to make them work as you do yours?

Ms. Worthy may have had the best of intentions, but intentions don't always mean anything. What she did do was continue a cycle of judgmentalism. She began a discussion that was designed to analyze and separate two groups.

You cannot use the word "than" in a comparison situation without making one side superior and one side inferior. Whatever her intentions were, when she said, "In other words, are the conditions of our acceptance, commitment, and love for a partner more stringent than the conditions a 'nilla person might have?" She asked you to judge your relationships against my relationships and decide which one was superior and which one was inferior under these conditions.

This is insulting. Not only to me, but to BDSM. There is no "than." Your relationship is equivalent to mine, not better and not worse.

Every relationship is the same in a lot of respects. We must all meet for the first time. We must all trust. We must all hurt. We must all forgive. We must all compromise. You cannot compare the degree of these things because no relationship is the same as any other relationship. The people aren't the same, they don't have the same needs, wants, desires, or anything else.

My conditions for my relationship are no more or less stringent than yours. You want your relationship to make you happy and to fulfill your needs. So do I.

Now, if you still think that I have apologize for that, artful, then you seriously need to explain to me how I could possibly be wrong and how I could possibly not find myself compared negatively to you inoffensive.

 

[James Blandings]

I really don't think it is appropriate for anyone to call on KillerMuffin to apologize to MsWorthy when we have yet to hear what MsWorthy thinks of KM's objections to her statement.
Personally, I agree with KM's position, but I am not certain that it is in fact pertinet to what MsWorthy had to say. After all, she postulated a question, she did not actually stake out a position on the issue, but only raised the question.

 

[MsWorthy]

Killermuffin, please reread my post, specifically the question I posed for discussion:

Having made my reasoning clear (I hope), I offer this for discussion:

Do you feel that, by the nature of the power exchange, couples in a d/s relationship are even more conditional than other couples. In other words, are the conditions of our acceptance, commitment, and love for a partner more stringent than the conditions a 'nilla person might have?

I never meant to suggest that either had it harder or easier (I was asking what others thought). Do recall that all of my relationships were what would be considered 'nilla up until 4 years ago (I am 42). I know and understand, well, how difficult a relationship is, regardless of it's ground rules.

My topic was meant to open an area of discussion. I asked for opinions. I made no attempt to say, "This is my opinion, agree with it." My experience, coupled with the opinions of the few I know (rl) in this lifestyle, is that it can be extremely difficult to find a d/s partner since we have the *usual* prerequisites for a relationship (I am not suggesting these are easy to come by, they aren't, but the playing field could be said to be smaller for those of us who need a PE) added to the need to find someone who is willing and able to give up personal power (or willing to take the responsibility for that power). That, I think, can mean a more difficult/rare chance of finding a good match. I was not saying this was so, I was asking what others thought. (it seemed to me that we are, perhaps, too picky by general standards, although there is no help for it if we are to make a good match).

I wondered if others felt this way, so I posed the topic. If you felt insulted by the topic, I can only surmise that, perhaps, you had a *feeling* based on what you felt I meant and projected that feeling onto me and assumed it was my motive.

I never mean to insult anyone and it certainly was not my intention with this topic.

 

[~Dream~]

MsWorthy

Killermuffin, please reread my post, specifically the question I posed for discussion:



I never meant to suggest that either had it harder or easier (I was asking what others thought). Do recall that all of my relationships were what would be considered 'nilla up until 4 years ago (I am 42). I know and understand, well, how difficult a relationship is, regardless of it's ground rules.

My topic was meant to open an area of discussion. I asked for opinions. I made no attempt to say, "This is my opinion, agree with it." I never mean to insult anyone and it certainly was not my intention with this topic.

to me,that says it all ,very well put MsWorthy,I APPLAUD YOU HUN..I am 45 years old and all my relationships before Artful were 'nilla' and therefore unsatisfying to me since my true submissiveness was not yet revealed'..YOU HAVE HELPED to educate me and countless others and I cannot thank you enough,I understand more and more as days go by why my Master thinks so highly of you..all relationships are difficult in one way or another BUTif both people and thats the key=BOTH want to make it work ,NILLA OR D/S..then in my opinion ,it will

 

[MsWorthy]

Re: What a *great* topic!

Lol! Can you tell this is a topic I really like?

Do you mind if I make one point MsWorthy? I *don't* think children are given unconditional love -- I think parents *think* they're giving it...but that as children we learn that love is conditional. That's where our conditioning about love comes from -- that "we should have known better" "bad girl" "what were you thinking?" -- oh, and a whole slew of others.
. . .
P.

Excellent point, Persy, thank you. I hadn't thought of it in that way, but I think you are probably right.

 

[James Blandings]

Re: MsWorthy

to me,that says it all ,very well put MsWorthy,I APPLAUD YOU HUN..I am 45 years old and all my relationships before Artful were 'nilla' and therefore unsatisfying to me since my true submissiveness was not yet revealed'..YOU HAVE HELPED to educate me and countless others and I cannot thank you enough,I understand more and more as days go by why my Master thinks so highly of you..all relationships are difficult in one way or another BUTif both people and thats the key=BOTH want to make it work ,NILLA OR D/S..then in my opinion ,it will

Dream, I think you have touched on a very important point.
Many people come into BDSM after a long and unfulfilling period of trying to fit themselves into a "normal" mold. It is only natural that when they realize their desires they come to feel that they have discovered something superior to anything else. And for them, it is. But as you said, that is because it is right for THEM, and it is not a universal truth.