Topping From the Bottom: Why?

[Etoile]

Lately Daddy has expressed displeasure with me for topping from the bottom - at least, that's my summarization of what I do that is displeasing to Daddy. E has said: "Sometimes you are greedy. You want me to please you or to hurt you when you should be satisfied with serving me. Other times you think I should just let you rest instead of having you serve me." That, to me, sounds like topping from the bottom, and e's right - I do it. But I don't want to - it's unconscious. I want to submit completely and serve fully, so why do I do it?

 

[Pure]

This problem is already evident in Sacher Masoch, quite clearly, in 1870.

He wanted to serve her; but on his terms. He also wanted her to love him, and further, not fuck around with others.

So you can see this classic bottom/masochist has specific needs that are NOT met by an aggressive, self-centered and cruel 'top'
(but rather a loving, concerned one).That's just the fantasy.

From the tops pov (Wanda, in his case) service and devotion--on the top's terms --are desired. Instead the top finds this classic bottom/masochist saying "I want to be tortured/used in THIS way, not that."

 

[catalina_francisco]

Lately Daddy has expressed displeasure with me for topping from the bottom - at least, that's my summarization of what I do that is displeasing to Daddy. E has said: "Sometimes you are greedy. You want me to please you or to hurt you when you should be satisfied with serving me. Other times you think I should just let you rest instead of having you serve me." That, to me, sounds like topping from the bottom, and e's right - I do it. But I don't want to - it's unconscious. I want to submit completely and serve fully, so why do I do it?

Why? Because Etoile, like the rest of us you are human and you have a mind of your own, emotions, and physical discomforts such as being tired which all work toward undermining our desire to submit fully and from the heart, especially when feeling more fragile or not 100% focused. People can paint a picture of perfect submission, always ready to obey any command, but I have yet to seee it in reality 24/7, 365 days a year, even in the most committed sub or slave.

I wouldn't necessarily say it is topping from the bottom as it is not something you are admittedly doing conciously to have your needs met. You are reacting to the moment, being real, trying harder each day, all things which are vital for submission to exist. As Francisco often points out when I have similar issues with my submission, life would be pretty boring if I were perfect. The reality is no-one is perfect, but the desire to strive to try your best, and to improve on our efforts are what our Dominants expect and appreciate. If they don't draw our attention to our imperfections, how can we be sure we will best serve their needs? Hang in there, celebrate the victories you do have, and continue to work on the more difficult points.

Catalina

 

[BlueSugar]

To go along with the idea that no one is perfect and you are human and you have needs, maybe you and E need to talk about them again, maybe things have changed over time slightly and you both need to adjust in a good way, maybe you are ready for a 'next step' of some kind

((ps your pm box is full))

 

[Etoile]

Re: Re: Topping From the Bottom: Why?

Why? Because Etoile, like the rest of us you are human and you have a mind of your own, emotions, and physical discomforts such as being tired which all work toward undermining our desire to submit fully and from the heart, especially when feeling more fragile or not 100% focused. People can paint a picture of perfect submission, always ready to obey any command, but I have yet to seee it in reality 24/7, 365 days a year, even in the most committed sub or slave.

I wouldn't necessarily say it is topping from the bottom as it is not something you are admittedly doing conciously to have your needs met. You are reacting to the moment, being real, trying harder each day, all things which are vital for submission to exist. As Francisco often points out when I have similar issues with my submission, life would be pretty boring if I were perfect. The reality is no-one is perfect, but the desire to strive to try your best, and to improve on our efforts are what our Dominants expect and appreciate. If they don't draw our attention to our imperfections, how can we be sure we will best serve their needs? Hang in there, celebrate the victories you do have, and continue to work on the more difficult points.

Wow, Catalina, thank you. You make a number of excellent points, and I definitely appreciate the reminder that nobody is perfect. Francisco is absolutely right, too - life would be boring! What would there be to strive for if we were already perfect submissives? I don't think I would be comfortable sharing this discussion with Daddy (I have only ever sent em a few threads from Lit), but it's reassuring to have it to read for my own support when discussing things like this with Daddy.

 

[Etoile]

To go along with the idea that no one is perfect and you are human and you have needs, maybe you and E need to talk about them again, maybe things have changed over time slightly and you both need to adjust in a good way, maybe you are ready for a 'next step' of some kind

((ps your pm box is full))

Sorry about that - please resend the PM if you want!

I have recently mentioned to Daddy that I want to be reminded of the rules, not because I've forgotten them but because they have changed over time, I think. I'm not sure about any next steps - it's hard given the nature of our relationship (long-distance, non-primary for me) - but it's worth thinking about. Thank you.

 

[Quint]

Heh. "Greedy" is one of T's pet accusations for me, and it's generally true. I definitely have my own mental agenda and list of desires. I do try to put them behind T's, but especially in "down time," when he has not explicitly expressed a desire, mine tend to sneak forward and make themselves known. And sometimes they sneak out anyway. Human, yes.

 

[Guest]

Ugh knows this one

The words come out of my mouth and I don't realize exactly what I have done until there is a certain look that popped out and I knew that I was pushing. I wasn't trying to control but I am a very assertive person anyway... which just smacks of silliness coming from a slave/babygirl.

Hopefully... I will find someone someday that can love me as me.... or heck I will grown up.

Always,
Elizabetht

Iwoso & the Sheik {Anal}
Jim Takes Control {BDSM}
Standing in the Corner {BDSM}
I Now Pronounce You... {Group Sex}
Kaitherine's Graduation Day {Incest/Taboo}
Kaitherine's Graduation Day Ch. 02 {Incest/Taboo}
Letter to My Lover {Letters & Transcripts}
Gordon's New Wife {NonConsent/Reluctance}
David {Non-Erotic Poetry}

 

[Peter2002]

I have recently mentioned to Daddy that I want to be reminded of the rules, not because I've forgotten them but because they have changed over time, I think. I'm not sure about any next steps - it's hard given the nature of our relationship (long-distance, non-primary for me) - but it's worth thinking about. Thank you. [/B]

Etoile, a quick thought or two because so many others put things so well for you.

The fact that your relationship is long-distance and non-primary carries with it some complications that just become a fact of life. But perhaps you can find a way for that to work for both you and your Daddy. Perhaps a regular reminder of the rules in a physical as well as an intellectual sense is all that's need. Best, of luck.

 

[Etoile]

Thanks to everyone for the continued thoughts on the matter...I'm glad I'm not the only one going through this! (That's kind of why I started the thread, so there could be overall discussion.)

I don't know much about so-called "bratty subs" - does anybody else have more information? It seems like they are kind of related, but I'm not sure. My only knowledge is from The Lord's Realm (which seems to be gone now?), which was maintained by a Dom and his proudly bratty sub. I did a Google search and found a bit more info, but it was mostly negative comments from doms saying they don't like bratty subs. The best help I found was from a Bondage.com forum thread which said:

There are generally two kinds of "brats".

There are the mouthy submissives who banter with their dominants, but when it comes down to it, know when it's not appropriate.

Then there are the submissives who act up, usually to get attention. Speaking personally, I wouldn't tolerate that in my children and won't in a submissive, either.

 

[FungiUg]

I've found if you put the topping on the bottom when you are making the pudding, then when you pull it out onto a dish, you get all that lovely topping falling down the sides to make a sauce.

Oh, sorry, this isn't the cooking class?

 

[MissTaken]

As human beings we tend to do what we know how to do to get our needs met.

If our need is attention and being disobedient has worked in the past, the behavior may become so natural as to occur even when you aren't aware of or are welcoming it.

It is about being human and if a Dominant doesn't wish to engage in that sort of interaction and play by play, He or She can teach teh submissive how to modify her behavior.

It really is a natural response, for some.

"Bratty subs?" Try a search on SAMs, Sassy Ass Masochists, I believe.

 

[Etoile]

It is about being human and if a Dominant doesn't wish to engage in that sort of interaction and play by play, He or She can teach teh submissive how to modify her behavior.

That's what I'm hoping to work through with Daddy (and I've told em so). I recognize that I need to work on my selfishness, but I've also asked em to help me through training.

 

[s'lara]

As human beings we tend to do what we know how to do to get our needs met.

If our need is attention and being disobedient has worked in the past, the behavior may become so natural as to occur even when you aren't aware of or are welcoming it.

It is about being human and if a Dominant doesn't wish to engage in that sort of interaction and play by play, He or She can teach teh submissive how to modify her behavior.

It really is a natural response, for some.

"Bratty subs?" Try a search on SAMs, Sassy Ass Masochists, I believe.

"Smart Assed Masochist"

A few links:

http://alt.com/magazine/advice/9069.html?show_erotic=&lang=german

http://www.serijules.com/terms.htm - our own serijules' description.

http://lauragoodwin.org/sam.htm - interesting take if not a little narrow minded.

 

[James G 5]

As human beings we tend to do what we know how to do to get our needs met.

If our need is attention and being disobedient has worked in the past, the behavior may become so natural as to occur even when you aren't aware of or are welcoming it.

It is about being human and if a Dominant doesn't wish to engage in that sort of interaction and play by play, He or She can teach teh submissive how to modify her behavior.

It really is a natural response, for some.

"Bratty subs?" Try a search on SAMs, Sassy Ass Masochists, I believe.

"Smart Assed Masochists"
Usually those who mouth off to get more abuse They will LITERALLY say "What a fucking girl you are, is that the hardest you can hit?" in the midst of a caning that's already got them bloody, at the most extreme end of that behavior (that comment would be directed at a man, BTW)
Brats and SAMS have some traist in common, except bratty subs still submit, at least to a point, whereas SAMS are just in it for the pain & play
At least that's been my experience

 

[catalina_francisco]

You might find some of what you seek on these:

http://www.submissiveloving.com/subtoughtimes.html

http://submissive1.homestead.com/index.html

http://www.castlerealm.com/tours.shtml


Catalina

 

[incubus_dark]

Hello Etoile, long time no see. How's Daddy?

It's human nature, as Miss Taken has said, even though you may get off on submitting, you still want what you want and I'd hazard a guess that you probably want what you want when you want it, too. If you actually want to behave, then I suspect it may be a question of inner discipline and perhaps negotiating a way with Daddy, by which you can make your needs known to him, without at the same time intimating that they should be met unless he sees fit.

A bratty sub is somebody who uses bad behaviour to attempt to provoke their dom into giving them what they want, regularly. Though they can be fun for a little while, the novelty soon palls. SAMS commonly goad a dom into ever harsher abuse by either bad behaviour or feigned contempt for what they are already receiving. I really can't picture you really being either, dear.

 

[Etoile]

Hiya, incubus! Daddy's doing well, thank you - even if e is going on vacation with out me in a couple of weeks!

I definitely don't feel like I'm a bratty sub or a SAM...those seem to be pretty negative (though I've heard of doms who love their bratty subs just the way they are). I feel more like a good girl who needs a bit more training and reminding sometimes.

 

[James G 5]

Hiya, incubus! Daddy's doing well, thank you - even if e is going on vacation with out me in a couple of weeks!

I definitely don't feel like I'm a bratty sub or a SAM...those seem to be pretty negative (though I've heard of doms who love their bratty subs just the way they are). I feel more like a good girl who needs a bit more training and reminding sometimes.

Which is probably exactly what you are looking for, and unfortunately the lack of time & contact is probably manifesting in a degree of petulance you don't necessarily consciously wish that's coming across this way to your Daddy