Thoughts on NoTalentHack's essay "Loving Loving Wives"

[EroticCupcake]

There are several reasons for that, usually at least somewhat interlinked.

There's what's called "compersion," which is being happy that someone else is enjoying themselves, often because of something you did. In a story that I still have yet to finish, the husband explains it to an inexperienced bull comparing it to his experience as a foodie. He knows that he's very good with his fingers and tongue, that he's good in bed and of a decent size, but he'll never be able to give her something the bull can. But, on the other hand, he's a foodie, and while his wife is a great cook for an amateur, she's not a great chef. In addition to the extremely enthusiastic sex they have after the bull leaves, she always makes sure to indulge his love of fine food, going so far as dipping into her personal savings to take him in trips specifically to go to restaurants he's always wanted to try.

There's also the sort of "trophy" aspect. This is where the stag/vixen terms come from. Stags tend to be dominant men that like to show their dominance by sharing their wife as if she were an object. They might not see it that way, but that's always the bibe I've gotten from it. It's basically the inversion of the cuck kink. Whereas the cuck is humiliated and afraid she might leave him, the stag is doing it as a show of supreme confidence. "Yeah, look how hot my wife is. Wanna fuck her? She and I both know she'll always want to come back to my bed."

There's also the swinging/swapping aspects, where the man is presumed to be having his own fun; the fully open marriage where it's essentially "can't cheat if we're both honest about it, and why should either of us suffer if we have to be apart or want to play with someone else;" the polyamorous relationship, etc. There's also more esoteric stuff, but that should give you a bit to go on.

Thanks for the reply. I see reverse cuck also as a power imbalance kink, which I can see.

I can also see the foodie version, but the food comes from a beautiful woman and wife has complex feelings about. It upsets her and she doesn't know why... She then sees the metaphor and realizes her bull situation is harmful.

The LW I'm writing involves wife taking a partner because the couple are both angry at western morality, and they encounter complex emotions. This may or may not work as a story, but I stopped because the inciting incident had to do with inability to have children. I realized I truly don't understand if I'm using trauma as a crutch.

Edit to say I'm not trying to be difficult, but I feel like I'm missing something. Maybe the exploration of complex emotion is the point?

 

[NoTalentHack]

Thanks for the reply. I see reverse cuck also as a power imbalance kink, which I can see.

I can also see the foodie version, but the food comes from a beautiful woman and wife has complex feelings about. It upsets her and she doesn't know why... She then sees the metaphor and realizes her bull situation is harmful.

The LW I'm writing involves wife taking a partner because the couple are both angry at western morality, and they encounter complex emotions. This may or may not work as a story, but I stopped because the inciting incident had to do with inability to have children. I realized I truly don't understand if I'm using trauma as a crutch.

Edit to say I'm not trying to be difficult, but I feel like I'm missing something. Maybe the exploration of complex emotion is the point?

Inability to have children is a time-honored LW trope. And, I mean, there's a good reason for that, because it can be emotionally devastating, especially if someone's really invested in it. I've used it in a couple of stories... I think. I'd have to go back and look. One for sure, and the other I may have partially written but not finished.

LW stories very often ARE about grappling with complex emotion, even if it's usually anger and loss of trust; I think you might get panned scorewise for what you're describing, but it sounds like a great read, potentially.

 

[mirafrida]

The essay does a good job laying out the parameters of what will be rewarded and bombed by readers of the category and why. That's a useful roadmap. He is also persuasive that those parameters are somewhat more nuanced than the BTB stereotype.

But I think the essay understates the extent to which one will only find the category as fair and rewarding as NTH does, so long as one sticks diligently to writing stories that conform to those parameters (as NTH does, i gather, with, one exception for variety's sake, written only after he'd already established a great deal of goodwill with the haters).

 

[mirafrida]

I don't object to their being there and reading the stories they want to read; I just wish they wouldn't poop all over everybody else. There's room for everyone to have fun.

Yes, in a nutshell that's what i felt like the essay was coy in dancing around. Taste in erotica is very individual, and you can't expect people to like stuff that's just not for them. Miscategorizing stuff is never a good play for an author. But LW is just a different level in terms of the venom and hypervigilancy of the policing. And when they are trying to drive you out, i've seen little evidence they give fair, helpful feedback along the way

 

[SimonDoom]

Yes, in a nutshell that's what i felt like the essay was coy in dancing around. Taste in erotica is very individual, and you can't expect people to like stuff that's just not for them. Miscategorizing stuff is never a good play for an author. But LW is just a different level in terms of the venom and hypervigilancy of the policing. And when they are trying to drive you out, i've seen little evidence they give fair, helpful feedback along the way

To some degree, I agree with you.

I think NTH states his view well, and I agree with most of his points, but IMO he overstates (not so much in the essay but in comments he has made to some others who've posted stories in LW) the degree to which someone who comes to LW and submits noncomforming stories should expect to see them pilloried and downvoted. As someone who's been around for a while and submitted a number of stories to that category, I understand how the readers in that category operate and I know what to expect. But that doesn't make it always right. I don't think just because your LW story includes other "trump" category material it's right for people to trash and downvote the story. I categorically do not do this. If I don't like the subject, I probably will stop reading it, and if I stop reading it I probably won't comment on it and definitely won't vote on it, because I never vote on a story I don't finish. And if I DO get through the story and choose to vote on it, I will try to take an open mind on the subject matter and vote on the story's merits. I never have, and never will, say, "You posted this in the wrong place! 1 Star!" I think that's childish and wrong.

It's like somebody walking into a bad neighborhood at night. As a matter of prudence, they may be acting foolishly, and it's appropriate to counsel them to do otherwise. But that doesn't mean they deserve to get mugged.

 

[NoTalentHack]

Yes, in a nutshell that's what i felt like the essay was coy in dancing around. Taste in erotica is very individual, and you can't expect people to like stuff that's just not for them. Miscategorizing stuff is never a good play for an author. But LW is just a different level in terms of the venom and hypervigilancy of the policing. And when they are trying to drive you out, i've seen little evidence they give fair, helpful feedback along the way

I think that's relatively fair. Yes, there are things that do better or worse in there, in terms of the core story structures of the category. And, yes, there are "outside" categories that are poorly received in there, namely the things most of us think of as trump categories: incest, gay male, most of the stuff that goes in fetish, etc. It's also )and I didn't note this in the essay because it was already getting long, but I've said it in several posts before) sexually conservative. It's less open to random anal, BDSM, etc. than something like Erotic Couplings.

However, not as much as you'd think. I've included anal (including analingus), BDSM, MFF, successful polyamorous relationships, "Daddy" kink, and more. In fact, my second most popular story there included anal, "Daddy," and rough sex, and while people did complain in the comments, it didn't seem to affect my scores. And that was my second story int he category, so I didn't have the built-up reputation at that point.

I didn't include this in the essay, but I wish I had. I think part of what makes it such a free-for-all but also so venomous at times is that it's one of the few categories where, unless you read the tags, you're not going to know what you're getting into. You won't really know how the story is going to end until you've read a bit in, etc. If I open up a story in Romance, I expect an HEA; if I open up one in Incest, well, incest; and so on.

But if I do that in LW? Unless the description says something like "My wife cucks me and I love it," I could be a page or two in before I go, "Hey! This is a cuck story!" It's like biting into a chocolate from a sampler and finding someone thought black licorice would be a good filling. I think that's part of why, if you look at the ratings of cuckolding or sharing series, the first story or two is usually much lower rated than the following ones. On the first one, most people went, "I wonder what's this? Oh, it turns out it's fucking black licorice." And then they avoid the rest of the series. But the folks wanting it go, "Yay! More black licorice!"

 

[Constories]

With scenarios like that I always wonder if if goes both ways - is he free to pursue a gf if he wants? He may not want, but is it his choice? If so, it's poly. If not, I could see saying he is in a willing (not necessarily enthusiastic) cuckold relationship.

I asked her all these questions. He is free to date if he wants, but apparently he doesn't/can't find a gf. So they consider it poly.

That said, I still think the term "cuck" mostly fits, (at least in its original definition).
I won't argue with anyone about it. But that's my own personal definition.

 

[Lifestyle66]

Yes, in a nutshell that's what i felt like the essay was coy in dancing around. Taste in erotica is very individual, and you can't expect people to like stuff that's just not for them. Miscategorizing stuff is never a good play for an author. But LW is just a different level in terms of the venom and hypervigilancy of the policing. And when they are trying to drive you out, i've seen little evidence they give fair, helpful feedback along the way

From some of the hateful comments I've seen in my and other LW stories, I think there's a faction of 1-bombers there who want their own category. They see "Loving Wives" as the only place they can find the BTB stories, and they want all consensual sharing stories to go elsewhere (IE. Group Sex or Erotic Couplings) to leave them in peace.

Then we have the monogamous-only who feel the same, that LW is the only place to host their loving wives (possibly feeling Romance is not quite what they're looking for.)

So we have these two opposing forces vying for their vision of "This Is The Only Place Where I Might Find What I Want!"

 

[intim8]

I took the LW plunge.

Inspired by @NoTalentHack's article, I decided that the story I had just about finished and couldn't find a good category for might be a fit. And it was time to wade into deeper waters.
Hey Nineteen - A widower claws at the wall between grief and happiness. (18.9kw)

I wasn't sure it was a fit with LW. I'm still not.

Funny thing happened. When I hit "submit', I got a pop-up that said, "Are you sure you want to do this? Do you know what happens to people who naively wander into that minefield?"

One button said "Get me out of here while I still can". I clicked the other one, "Fuck it, what's the worst that can happen?"

It's been up for 6 hours and already has 3K reads. It's already not my least read story, and the one that is has been up for a year.

So far the only negative comment, the only comment, just says that it's boring. It has 4.03 stars on 39 ratings, and has been favorited 6 times. I have 4 new followers. At least so far, it's not a horror show. We'll see what happens when the daytime crowd starts hitting it.

Fingers crossed.

 

[NoTalentHack]

I took the LW plunge.

Inspired by @NoTalentHack's article, I decided that the story I had just about finished and couldn't find a good category for might be a fit. And it was time to wade into deeper waters.
Hey Nineteen - A widower claws at the wall between grief and happiness. (18.9kw)

I wasn't sure it was a fit with LW. I'm still not.

Funny thing happened. When I hit "submit', I got a pop-up that said, "Are you sure you want to do this? Do you know what happens to people who naively wander into that minefield?"

One button said "Get me out of here while I still can". I clicked the other one, "Fuck it, what's the worst that can happen?"

It's been up for 6 hours and already has 3K reads. It's already not my least read story, and the one that is has been up for a year.

So far the only negative comment, the only comment, just says that it's boring. It has 4.03 stars on 39 ratings, and has been favorited 6 times. I have 4 new followers. At least so far, it's not a horror show. We'll see what happens when the daytime crowd starts hitting it.

Fingers crossed.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I very much disagree with the notion that Loving Wives gives author's a critical 'fair shake' for a couple of reasons.

First, this assertion implies that the other 31 categories do not give fair criticism. Nothing could be further from the truth. There really are only three types of criticism or feedback. The first two are political feedback and trolling. The third is legitimate. Of the first two trolling can sometimes also be legitimate. Of the three the only type that is not the least bit constructive is the political feedback. What is political feedback? Here's an example: "This kink doesn't work that way. Terrible story," or even "the bitch got hers as she's supposed to. Good job." Basically, feedback based on whether the writer agrees or disagrees with the author's work regardless of the quality of said work. Which brings me to my next point.

Loving Wives has by far the most political feedback of any category. BDSM would be a fairly distant second. In that sense it probably gives the least 'fair shake' of any category.

However, it does give the most feedback so through sheer volume alone one can pick out good feedback and get more of it that way than in feedback from most other categories. But the LW feedback on the whole is the least fair, or the least related to quality as large vocal tracts of the readership do not care about quality, about characters, sentence structure and flow, descriptive imagery nor motive at all. The only thing that they base their votes and comments on is whether they agreed with the ending or not. This is not the least bit constructive, nor will it improve anyone's writing nor craft.

 

[Lifestyle66]

I very much disagree with the notion that Loving Wives gives author's a critical 'fair shake' for a couple of reasons.

First, this assertion implies that the other 31 categories do not give fair criticism. Nothing could be further from the truth. There really are only three types of criticism or feedback. The first two are political feedback and trolling. The third is legitimate. Of the first two trolling can sometimes also be legitimate. Of the three the only type that is not the least bit constructive is the political feedback. What is political feedback? Here's an example: "This kink doesn't work that way. Terrible story," or even "the bitch got hers as she's supposed to. Good job." Basically, feedback based on whether the writer agrees or disagrees with the author's work regardless of the quality of said work. Which brings me to my next point.

Loving Wives has by far the most political feedback of any category. BDSM would be a fairly distant second. In that sense it probably gives the least 'fair shake' of any category.

However, it does give the most feedback so through sheer volume alone one can pick out good feedback and get more of it that way than in feedback from most other categories. But the LW feedback on the whole is the least fair, or the least related to quality as large vocal tracts of the readership do not care about quality, about characters, sentence structure and flow, descriptive imagery nor motive at all. The only thing that they base their votes and comments on is whether they agreed with the ending or not. This is not the least bit constructive, nor will it improve anyone's writing nor craft.

People won't USUALLY click on a category for something they know they won't like due to the category content description. (Yes, they are those haters who troll other categories.) In most cases, the audience opening and reading the story is leaning toward that category description with a more positive attitude toward such content.

But as we've discussed elsewhere here in AH, LW has a more diverse, opposing audiences at extremes of their opinions. And you probably won't see that as much in something like a "Gay Male" category. You don't see as much gay AND anti-gay extremists weighing in on the story.

In LW, we see BTB/cheating-hater extremists, versus fun swinger/sharing, versus monogamous-only extremists high-fiving and 1-bombing, with their appropriate comments, based on the quality of the writing and the content of the story.

If you're looking for a "pat on the back", then using other categories is a way to find a more appreciative audience. But if you're looking for "how does this appeal to a broader audience?", then that's more of what you get from LW. Your story would get far more views in LW than elsewhere. You just need to take the bad with the good.

It CAN be constructive, if you can handle the criticism!

 

[pink_silk_glove]

If you're looking for a "pat on the back", then using other categories is a way to find a more appreciative audience. But if you're looking for "how does this appeal to a broader audience?", then that's more of what you get from LW. Your story would get far more views in LW than elsewhere. You just need to take the bad with the good.

It CAN be constructive, if you can handle the criticism!

Certainly. I am not at all arguing that since there's a lot of criticism in LW that makes the feedback poor quality. I'm saying that so much of the feedback (good or bad) has nothing to do with quality, moreso than any other category.

Let's say you post in first time. You might get 5 comments and basically they say "Wow, really hot. Loved it," or "Your female lead was very sweet and I identified with her," or perhaps a critique "don't know why she let him fuck her, didn't believe the weak plot." And maybe you'll get one troll. The first four of those are definitely legitimate as they comment at least a little bit on some aspect of quality in the work and can help you improve your craft.

Now let's say that you post a story of similar quality in LW. You will get 50 comments. 35 of them will slam you because the bitch didn't get thrown to the street where she belongs, 5 of them will praise you because the sacred vows of marriage were ultimately renewed/upheld, and none of those 40 say one good goddamn thing about the quality of the work - nothing about your style or general prose, nothing about your motive, nothing about your descriptions - solely based on whether you followed the formula - their personal formula - or not. They do nothing to help you improve your craft. Only the remaining 10 comments that are non-political tell you anything constructive.

So comparing 4 out 5 (80% legitimate feedback) to 10 out of 50 (20% legitimate feedback) one can hardly say that LW has the fairest criticism. Certainly just the fact of the sheer volume of feedback you will get much more feedback and more useful feedback (10 to 4 in this example) and that is not to be ignored - and I am not saying that NTH's essay on the whole should be thrown out - he certainly shares his valuable experience with the category - but the cross section on the whole is the least fair of all the categories. The 'fair shake' statement is really the only thing I can't agree with.

 

[nice90sguy]

There's too much vanilla-flavoring in Loving Wives for me. I need a few hundred thousand scovilles to even begin to get aroused at my age.

 

[Lifestyle66]

Certainly. I am not at all arguing that since there's a lot of criticism in LW that makes the feedback poor quality. I'm saying that so much of the feedback (good or bad) has nothing to do with quality, moreso than any other category.

Let's say you post in first time. You might get 5 comments and basically they say "Wow, really hot. Loved it," or "Your female lead was very sweet and I identified with her," or perhaps a critique "don't know why she let him fuck her, didn't believe the weak plot." And maybe you'll get one troll. The first four of those are definitely legitimate as they comment at least a little bit on some aspect of quality in the work and can help you improve your craft.

Now let's say that you post a story of similar quality in LW. You will get 50 comments. 35 of them will slam you because the bitch didn't get thrown to the street where she belongs, 5 of them will praise you because the sacred vows of marriage were ultimately renewed/upheld, and none of those 40 say one good goddamn thing about the quality of the work - nothing about your style or general prose, nothing about your motive, nothing about your descriptions - solely based on whether you followed the formula - their personal formula - or not. They do nothing to help you improve your craft. Only the remaining 10 comments that are non-political tell you anything constructive.

So comparing 4 out 5 (80% legitimate feedback) to 10 out of 50 (20% legitimate feedback) one can hardly say that LW has the fairest criticism. Certainly just the fact of the sheer volume of feedback you will get much more feedback and more useful feedback (10 to 4 in this example) and that is not to be ignored - and I am not saying that NTH's essay on the whole should be thrown out - he certainly shares his valuable experience with the category - but the cross section on the whole is the least fair of all the categories. The 'fair shake' statement is really the only thing I can't agree with.

Feedback for the craft of writing can be found with good editors, by taking classes in writing, or asking other writers in the forums to beta-read your story to provide pointed feedback.

What we get from the reader audience is their impression of the content, or critiques of really shitty writing when we ignore even the simple grammar and spelling mistakes.

I didn't say LW gives you a "fair shake" at the craft of writing. I'm saying they give you a broader audience to give you an idea of the greater public appeal of the story. Are you writing to a niche audience? Or what might you change to appeal to a more diverse audience? If you consider the comments over multiple stories, are they finding the same level of criticism over the same things? Or are they softening in their opinions and shifting, based on subtle changes in the phrasing of the content or different views and anecdotes?

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I didn't say LW gives you a "fair shake" at the craft of writing.

No, you did not, but NTH did in his piece. A 'fair shake' was his catchphrase used throughout his essay as he claimed that LW was the best place for honest feedback to improve your craft. I contest that. He wrote a fair amount of insightful stuff in that essay based on his experiences but that one aspect I do contest.

 

[NoTalentHack]

Certainly. I am not at all arguing that since there's a lot of criticism in LW that makes the feedback poor quality. I'm saying that so much of the feedback (good or bad) has nothing to do with quality, moreso than any other category.

Let's say you post in first time. You might get 5 comments and basically they say "Wow, really hot. Loved it," or "Your female lead was very sweet and I identified with her," or perhaps a critique "don't know why she let him fuck her, didn't believe the weak plot." And maybe you'll get one troll. The first four of those are definitely legitimate as they comment at least a little bit on some aspect of quality in the work and can help you improve your craft.

Now let's say that you post a story of similar quality in LW. You will get 50 comments. 35 of them will slam you because the bitch didn't get thrown to the street where she belongs, 5 of them will praise you because the sacred vows of marriage were ultimately renewed/upheld, and none of those 40 say one good goddamn thing about the quality of the work - nothing about your style or general prose, nothing about your motive, nothing about your descriptions - solely based on whether you followed the formula - their personal formula - or not. They do nothing to help you improve your craft. Only the remaining 10 comments that are non-political tell you anything constructive.

So comparing 4 out 5 (80% legitimate feedback) to 10 out of 50 (20% legitimate feedback) one can hardly say that LW has the fairest criticism. Certainly just the fact of the sheer volume of feedback you will get much more feedback and more useful feedback (10 to 4 in this example) and that is not to be ignored - and I am not saying that NTH's essay on the whole should be thrown out - he certainly shares his valuable experience with the category - but the cross section on the whole is the least fair of all the categories. The 'fair shake' statement is really the only thing I can't agree with.

I disagree. This is another place where I have some data to back me up, too.

In the first 2ish months on Lit, I wrote five stories outside of Loving Wives: one in BDSM, two in Romance, one in Incest, and one in Anal. I know who the commenters are that are primarily LW folks, so I can separate out the comments from those folks to get a baseline, i.e., folks who likely weren't following me over form LW. I'm keeping in Anonymous comments that aren't clearly from readers that knew me from LW, but that doesn't skew things too much. Here's what I found for each, in the first month of each story being posted, ignoring the "I loved this" or "This was shit" type of comments that had no further critique:

Forever Bound - BDSM
Eight non-LW-reader or AH comments. The only thing close to useful, from a writing standpoint, were three comments that each roughly read "I lived through something like this, and you nailed it." But I do like those "I feel seen" kind, so I'll count them.

Cultural Exchanges Pt. 1 - Romance
Six non-LW-reader or AH comments, most of them anonymous. One useful one that wasn't simply "I don't like BWWM stories" or "Shit writer is probably going to turn it into a harem," both of which at least indicate preference; however, since you disqualified the "you should have burned the bitch" ones in LW, we'll toss these, too. The last one, "This effort is very disjointed and awkward to say the very least. Jumps around with no direction and the sex has no erotica nor does it even make sense nor entertaining. If it is all like this for subsequent chapters it would not be worth any attention. Get some writing help or someone who knows how to write to assist you." still makes no sense to me, but it at least attempts to give critique.

A Very Long Engagement - Incest/Taboo
The high mark at nineteen non-LW-readers or AH friends. Of them, most were either "please write more of these two," or "I don't like anal." Four gave specific comments about what did/didn't work stylistically, one saying they loved the buildup of the backstory, and three saying they didn't like my (over)use of stuttering; that was fair, and I've toned it down since.

Meat Market - Romance
Seventeen non-LW-readers or AH folks. Several were about a comment I deleted from Overcritical that was just racist bullshit. Three commented on specific aspects of the story, in one case merely being a line they liked.

Virility - Anal
One non-LW/AH, an attaboy, and that was it.

In each case, I have a nearby LW story that I can contrast with. I'm not going to do the deep dive there; it's entirely possible that, as a percentage of comments, I get fewer useful ones. But I also get, in terms of raw numbers, way, way more. For the record:

At the End of the Tour, a mild BTB, published the day after Forever Bound:
390 comments in the first month

February Sucks: Sessions, a moving on story, published the day after Cultural Exchanges Pt. 1:
184 comments in the first month

No Place to Go, a "letter from the dead wife" story, published two days after A Very Long Engagement:
335 comments in the first month

Kayfabe, a cuckolding story, published four days after Meat Market:
114 comments in the first month

Shouldering the Burden, a reconciliation story (sort of), published one day after Virility:
158 comments in the first month

Let's say I'm getting 5% "useful" comments from my LW stories. That would mean that I got six useful comments (rounded up) on Kayfabe, the lowest of these five. That beats out the best out of any of the other categories (A Very Long Engagement) by two, all by itself. And I know, from experience, the percentage is higher than that.

As to a "fair shake," I stand by that, too. Because there's no fetish or story beats you can reliably play to, you get a LOT more "hey, your structure fucking sucked," since a lot of people aren't coming to the category to get off. Beyond that, what you're giving them STILL might not be what they were coming to the category for, because... well, you read the essay (thanks for that, by the way), but for the folks that didn't...

Ratings are low there not just because of the turf war, nor because of the lack of a fetish, but also because of the way the stories are structured; if you wanted a cuckolding story, and the wife gets kicked out, you're going to be unhappy. Same for the reverse, too.

I know this is not something a lot of folks want to hear, but I have a sneaking suspicion that it's not that the ratings in LW are low; it's that the ratings on the rest of the site are high, inflated because people are only getting the things they want when they go to their specific category, or at least are close enough to what they want that they don't kick unless it's egregiously offensive to them.

Let's do a thought experiment: imagine that Lit decided to merge NC/R and Romance. What do you think that would look like? Probably a lot like LW: vicious flame wars in the comments and low ratings all around, ESPECIALLY if a bunch of stories were ambiguously advertised. How about First Time and, I dunno, Fetish? Lotsa scat and femdom lovers in First Time? If you slam any two categories together, the ratings would go lower; if you slam two diametrically opposed ones together, they'll go even lower.

I have a little data to back this up, too. I didn't include it in the essay because it was already getting too long, but my NC/R entry, Grace Restored, and my Fetish entry, In Vitro Veritas, were both very well received by readers and authors in those categories (one said he thought IVV should be a hall of famer), but they're both sitting at sub 4.5 scores, and I know, almost to a certainty, that it's because my following from LW heavily disliked them. I documented IVV's response, in particular, at https://forum.literotica.com/thread...t-you-still-love.1586008/page-3#post-96774927

As a slight update to that, IVV is sitting at 229 votes and a 4.18 rating right now. I reposted it over on Lush, and it got tagged as a Recommended Read by the moderators there. It also has one of my favorite all-time comments here on Lit from an Anon, reacting to the low rating and the comments from LW followers calling it cruel, "I don’t know what the other comments are on about. I had to read this in parts because I rubbed myself raw. So hot."

 

[NoTalentHack]

There's too much vanilla-flavoring in Loving Wives for me. I need a few hundred thousand scovilles to even begin to get aroused at my age.

You are not wrong. Funny thing, though? Commenters don't seem to like it too much, but voters don't really care. My kinkiest entry in there, After the Future is Gone (DD/lg, anal, rough sex, breeding, discussed but not seen impact play, implied group at the end) is my second highest scoring.

 

[intim8]

No, you did not, but NTH did in his piece. A 'fair shake' was his catchphrase used throughout his essay as he claimed that LW was the best place for honest feedback to improve your craft. I contest that. He wrote a fair amount of insightful stuff in that essay based on his experiences but that one aspect I do contest.

My first foray there has been up for 12 hours. I'm gobsmacked by the sheer volume of views, ratings, etc. Quantity has a quality all its own. Even if the signal to noise ratio is worse, the amount of feedback means there is more genuine signal in abolute terms.

It's at 6.4 k reads, more than half of my stories have gotten in a year. It has four comments, two negative and two positive, and 11 favorrites. There has definitely been some 1-bombing, but it's over 4.1 with over 120 ratings.

There's more honest feedback in all those ratings than most of the other stories I have that have been up for a lot longer, even accounting for the 1-bombs. It's obviously not all 5s and 1s. The three legit comments are constructive, and even the positive ones mention negative aspects. That is definitely constructive.

So the aggregate might no be a fair shake, but so far, the amount of honest and useful feedback is the most productive 12 hours I've ever had here.

 

[Lifestyle66]

My first foray there has been up for 12 hours. I'm gobsmacked by the sheer volume of views, ratings, etc. Quantity has a quality all its own. Even if the signal to noise ratio is worse, the amount of feedback means there is more genuine signal in abolute terms.

It's at 6.4 k reads, more than half of my stories have gotten in a year. It has four comments, two negative and two positive, and 11 favorrites. There has definitely been some 1-bombing, but it's over 4.1 with over 120 ratings.

There's more honest feedback in all those ratings than most of the other stories I have that have been up for a lot longer, even accounting for the 1-bombs. It's obviously not all 5s and 1s. The three legit comments are constructive, and even the positive ones mention negative aspects. That is definitely constructive.

So the aggregate might no be a fair shake, but so far, the amount of honest and useful feedback is the most productive 12 hours I've ever had here.

That's the way to look at it.

MORE people are giving their opinions, for good or bad, in looking at your story there. And it's up to the writer to look at it overall as a "glass half empty" or a "glass half full".

I choose the latter.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Let's say I'm getting 5% "useful" comments from my LW stories. That would mean that I got six useful comments (rounded up) on Kayfabe, the lowest of these five. That beats out the best out of any of the other categories (A Very Long Engagement) by two, all by itself. And I know, from experience, the percentage is higher than that.

This part I already agree with and have explained why exactly as you state: by sheer large volume, even with a low percentage of useful feedback you still actually get more than in other categories.

As to a "fair shake," I stand by that, too. Because there's no fetish or story beats you can reliably play to, you get a LOT more "hey, your structure fucking sucked," since a lot of people aren't coming to the category to get off. Beyond that, what you're giving them STILL might not be what they were coming to the category for, because... well, you read the essay (thanks for that, by the way), but for the folks that didn't...

No, with such a large portion of feedback being purely political - and far more of it than any other category - no, that's not fair commentary in regards to quality of the work. Sure, places like Fetish can get political, certainly BDSM, heck apparently there's even a 'no-homo' faction in group sex that will frown upon anything that isn't fmf or fmff (or any other combo of fs and ms that has only one m), but none come close to the political factions in LW that give feedback solely on whether they agreed with the outcome of the story and have absolutely no regard for the quality of the story. This political feedback is not even slightly a fair shake assessment of craft and no other category is so tainted.

Ratings are low there not just because of the turf war, nor because of the lack of a fetish, but also because of the way the stories are structured; if you wanted a cuckolding story, and the wife gets kicked out, you're going to be unhappy. Same for the reverse, too.

Ratings are irrelevant to quality of craft, except maybe a bit in N/N (or non-erotic, how to and essays). I've never mentioned ratings in this discussion.

 

[NoTalentHack]

My first foray there has been up for 12 hours. I'm gobsmacked by the sheer volume of views, ratings, etc. Quantity has a quality all its own. Even if the signal to noise ratio is worse, the amount of feedback means there is more genuine signal in abolute terms.

It's at 6.4 k reads, more than half of my stories have gotten in a year. It has four comments, two negative and two positive, and 11 favorrites. There has definitely been some 1-bombing, but it's over 4.1 with over 120 ratings.

There's more honest feedback in all those ratings than most of the other stories I have that have been up for a lot longer, even accounting for the 1-bombs. It's obviously not all 5s and 1s. The three legit comments are constructive, and even the positive ones mention negative aspects. That is definitely constructive.

So the aggregate might no be a fair shake, but so far, the amount of honest and useful feedback is the most productive 12 hours I've ever had here.

The story, I mean. I haven’t finished it yet, but I’m enjoying it so far.

 

[Gamblnluck]

large vocal tracts of the readership do not care about quality, about characters, sentence structure and flow, descriptive imagery nor motive at all.

One thing ou did not mention in your description of a well written story that is crucial for success on LW is a plot. Many of the stories that get panned or get luke warm reviews lack one. T
Their stories are very well constructed from a technical aspect but do not get the reader caught up in the story. A story that has three pages of hot descriptive sex and the plot is shaky is not going to do well. Nor when the plot has wide open gaps in the logic.
Today there was a story that told a decent story bout a man who believed his wife and her lover conspired to kill him. They got proof that the lover did have those intentions, but nobody went to the police. That gaff alone cost the author in the comments.
Finishing the story is another mark down from some. Now I do not believe that every story has to have all the i's dotted and t's crossed. How the author ends the story is the author's prerogative.

 

[Gamblnluck]

but none come close to the political factions in LW that give feedback solely on whether they agreed with the outcome of the story and have absolutely no regard for the quality of the story.

Actually, if you look,you will see large numbers of comments that say. You write well and told an interesting story, but not my type. I get comments all over the map. My overall score is good.Out of a dozen stories on LW (not counting chapters) virtually all hover around 4 or better.
The one outlier is a sequel I wrote. The comments were scathing how I misrepresented the original authors characterizations and went on from there.
Quality is a nebulous term. It is why a wild, descriptive multi-page sex scene might do very well in erotic couplings but might not do well in LW because beyond the titillation, there is little story.
Another thing that generally gets panned is taking five pages to tell a story that should have been edited to three. But that will generally not knock a story but a point or so.

 

[madelinemasoch]

People won't USUALLY click on a category for something they know they won't like due to the category content description. (Yes, they are those haters who troll other categories.) In most cases, the audience opening and reading the story is leaning toward that category description with a more positive attitude toward such content.

But as we've discussed elsewhere here in AH, LW has a more diverse, opposing audiences at extremes of their opinions. And you probably won't see that as much in something like a "Gay Male" category. You don't see as much gay AND anti-gay extremists weighing in on the story.

In LW, we see BTB/cheating-hater extremists, versus fun swinger/sharing, versus monogamous-only extremists high-fiving and 1-bombing, with their appropriate comments, based on the quality of the writing and the content of the story.

If you're looking for a "pat on the back", then using other categories is a way to find a more appreciative audience. But if you're looking for "how does this appeal to a broader audience?", then that's more of what you get from LW. Your story would get far more views in LW than elsewhere. You just need to take the bad with the good.

It CAN be constructive, if you can handle the criticism!

Man, a lot of the things you guys say about LW just doesn't bear out in my own writer's stats.

I agree with what pinksilkglove has said. They put it well. But...

ALL of my LW comments are "political" or trolling, except for oneagainst's, who helped point out what to edit when the story in question got kicked back. Also, I don't see how it could test how a broader audience would feel about it from another point of view: I have more views on the vast majority of my BDSM stories than my sole LW one so far. This could be because BDSM is my foundation as an account on the site, but it's just funny how people say "LW comments are better" when in my case they're not, "LW gets more reads" when in my case it doesn't, and even "LW is the only place trolls hate on cuckold stories" or statements of the like when those very same trolls searched me out in the BDSM category long before my only LW story dropped. I really should've mentioned that part in forum discussions before, but it took me a long time to realize that all of my original hate was in BDSM and not LW. It's like, everything that's so vociferously and definitively said about that category, good and bad, does not bear out in my own work. If you used my author page to prove any of your points, you'd just be disproven, as it would be the farthest outlier possible.

The category talk ceases to make a lot of sense when you realize there are probably more readers who frequent multiple categories than those who stay firmly planted in one alone. If they had stayed in LW, I wouldn't have faced their vocal rage and disapproval until Dark Love came out. They likely just searched for "cuck" in tags precisely in order to hate on them.

I know this will read as "the crazy funny girl who can't understand why people don't like her stories is complaining again" to some people on here, but I really don't give a shit.