This makes me ill

[Netzach]

And it should everyone.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071108/ap_on_re_us/homeless_veterans

In the 60's early 50's and late 40's we had a cultural renaissance propelled by the GI bill.

Now we don't even think they should have a fucking roof when they're back.

 

[h_i_s]

And it should everyone.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071108/ap_on_re_us/homeless_veterans

In the 60's early 50's and late 40's we had a cultural renaissance propelled by the GI bill.

Now we don't even think they should have a fucking roof when they're back.

Yeah and in cities like the one I live in and was born in and raised in... back in the 60's, the fed gov created subsidized housing projects for veterans and thier families... and now are tearing them down with no care nor plan to rebuild.
But we still have homeless people.....
We still have homeless vets.
And, we have more vets by the day and still growing......
It's as simple as reading the local paper to see all this scandalous shit with forgetting WHO gave ALL to make this country/state/city what it is.......
Makes me sick too.

 

[BiBunny]

Don't you know? Once they're not out there fighting wars they don't believe in, anyway, they're of no use to us anymore. Why should we be worried about them?

That's bullshit. One of my best friends in the world, whom I've known since 3rd grade, returned from Iraq about a year ago. We sit up and talk late at night a lot because he has nightmares about it that make him not want to go to sleep. He lives with his parents right now. I can't imagine what life would be like for him if they hadn't provided him with a home. It took him nine months to even find a job.

 

[intothewoods]

Yeah, I heard about this on NPR recently. I'm hoping the story gets more attention.

 

[JMohegan]

And it should everyone.

Ill indeed, but we've been treating the wounded like crap before they even get out of the hospital.

The Walter Reed scandal was vile beyond belief.

 

[the captians wench]

I really shouldn't have opened this thread

 

[Homburg]

The ones I really feel for are the hard-core combat arms guys like infantry. Unless you are in a leadership position, it is just a bit tough to translate "Kill people and break things"* into civilian job skills.

Combat Support positions leave you in better stead for transition to civilian life. A diesel mechanic working on military vehicles is still a diesel mechanic. A seabee is still a guy trained in serious construction.

That groundpounder though? He's ass out.



* - "Kill people and break things" is a paraphrase of a basic definition of the purpose of the military used in military science. It is not a political dig at the military or judgement thereof, though many have used it as such. In this case it is just a descriptor of the job of combat arms.

Bit of personal background - My dad joined the Army during the Viet Nam War and served up through the early 90's. He was technically a diesel mechanic, but did a whole lotta combat ops through numerous stints with the 82nd. I spent the first half of my life living on a variety of military bases around the world, and live in a HEAVILY military area (near the largest naval base in the world). Better than half the people I work with, hang out with, and relate to on a daily basis are current, former, or dependents of the military. As a result, Veteran's Affairs is a topic that is near and dear to me.

 

[Homburg]

Ill indeed, but we've been treating the wounded like crap before they even get out of the hospital.

The Walter Reed scandal was vile beyond belief.

Yeah, I read an long article about this four times, hoping that I was reading it wrong. Thinking that there was just no way that we could be doing that.

 

[Netzach]

So have we always been "doing that" and it's just that now people dig harder or are things, as I worry, just getting worse in this regard?

I personally think there is a war on the people who would have been middle class if there were still more mobility and less insane distribution. Let's face it, it's the lure of economic opportunity to people who have no other lure of economic opportunity that drives this puppy, not merely a mix of ideologies, but the firm belief that you are taking a risk, doing something important AND charting your way to the possibility of a better life.

That possibility gets smaller and smaller it appears. People still believe in it, but now the evidence points to delusion over belief.

My stepfather was in Viet Nam. I blame the drinking and depression that ultimately cost him his life on PTSD. It was NOT talked about. I have no idea what his experience there was, what rank he held, or any of it. His affinity with films and books like Platoon and Dispatches makes me think it was not talked about for a reason.

He went because he got caught dealing weed at Fordham and was given a Hobson's choice deal - sign up or police record. Police record was not an option in his Irish cop family - so...

I know this kind of thing still must go on every day. How many congressional sons and daughters are over there? That number was very high in previous conflicts.

 

[intothewoods]

I'm sorry, I'm tired and got a bit distracted. I assumed the link was about the GI bill, not homeless vets.

I may as well bring it up, since we're talking about our awful treatment of vets. There was recently a piece on NPR about the greatly diminished impact of the GI bill, especially in comparison to what it used to be. I can't find a link on the NPR site, but I'll keep looking.

 

[Yasashii_Kaze]

God, reading that just made my stomach drop. I'm from a very military-oriented family. I lost a cousin in Iraq and a very close friend is about to be deployed to Afghanistan. It breaks my heart to know that our government treats these heroes so callously.

 

[Netzach]

It's not like I'm talking about the government teat here either - I'm simply talking about creating and upholding opportunities for people who have put in the ultimate investments. This is insane...new lows, I really think

 

[graceanne]

Sadly enough they don't come back from the war like they left. I pray and pray for them, and so does K. A lot of them come back and with an addiction, or develop one when they get home. Quite often they refuse any aide at all. Their's free counseling available for the veterans, they get a months paid vacation when they get back (I think they should get more, but oh well). There are lots of programs available for them, but they have to accept them. The most I can say is to PRAY for them, or think good thoughts or whatever you want to do.

 

[JMohegan]

Yeah, I read an long article about this four times, hoping that I was reading it wrong. Thinking that there was just no way that we could be doing that.

"No way" is exactly what I was thinking when I first read it. No fucking way.

For those who haven't read it, here is a link to the article that broke the Walter Reed story, written by two reporters who spent four months secretly interviewing people without the Army's permission.

The first paragraphs of the piece are as follows:


Behind the door of Army Spec. Jeremy Duncan's room, part of the wall is torn and hangs in the air, weighted down with black mold. When the wounded combat engineer stands in his shower and looks up, he can see the bathtub on the floor above through a rotted hole. The entire building, constructed between the world wars, often smells like greasy carry-out. Signs of neglect are everywhere: mouse droppings, belly-up cockroaches, stained carpets, cheap mattresses.

This is the world of Building 18, not the kind of place where Duncan expected to recover when he was evacuated to Walter Reed Army Medical Center from Iraq last February with a broken neck and a shredded left ear, nearly dead from blood loss. But the old lodge, just outside the gates of the hospital and five miles up the road from the White House, has housed hundreds of maimed soldiers recuperating from injuries suffered in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The common perception of Walter Reed is of a surgical hospital that shines as the crown jewel of military medicine. But 5 1/2 years of sustained combat have transformed the venerable 113-acre institution into something else entirely -- a holding ground for physically and psychologically damaged outpatients. Almost 700 of them -- the majority soldiers, with some Marines -- have been released from hospital beds but still need treatment or are awaiting bureaucratic decisions before being discharged or returned to active duty.

They suffer from brain injuries, severed arms and legs, organ and back damage, and various degrees of post-traumatic stress. Their legions have grown so exponentially -- they outnumber hospital patients at Walter Reed 17 to 1 -- that they take up every available bed on post and spill into dozens of nearby hotels and apartments leased by the Army. The average stay is 10 months, but some have been stuck there for as long as two years.

 

[nh23]

I'm a member of this group. They help out homeless veterans by taking up collections and making bookbags filled with things a vet on the street may need. You can also adopt a vet, or someone who is deployed. If anyone is interested.

http://www.angelsncamouflage.org/

 

[JMohegan]

Bit of personal background - My dad joined the Army during the Viet Nam War and served up through the early 90's. He was technically a diesel mechanic, but did a whole lotta combat ops through numerous stints with the 82nd. I spent the first half of my life living on a variety of military bases around the world, and live in a HEAVILY military area (near the largest naval base in the world). Better than half the people I work with, hang out with, and relate to on a daily basis are current, former, or dependents of the military. As a result, Veteran's Affairs is a topic that is near and dear to me.

Homburg, I would be interested to know your opinion on whether there should be an active draft in this country.

Anyone else should feel free to address this, obviously, but I'm asking for your perspective directly because of the background presented in this post.

 

[perfect_deb]

>>When he finally tracked down the supply clerk, he discovered the problem: His name was mistakenly left off the "GWOT list" -- the list of "Global War on Terrorism" patients with priority funding from the Defense Department.

He brought his Purple Heart to the clerk to prove he was in Iraq.<<

i just read this bit as part of the article about Walter Reed hospital where a soldier was trying to replace his uniform cut from his body when he was injured - let me get this straight...they could give him his purple heart but not a new uniform...?

 

[myinnerslut]

god, thats horrible. you are right, i feel sick.

 

[Betticus]

And it should everyone.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071108/ap_on_re_us/homeless_veterans

In the 60's early 50's and late 40's we had a cultural renaissance propelled by the GI bill.

Now we don't even think they should have a fucking roof when they're back.

It's just part of the machine.

There is no profit to be made in just taking out the individuals who cause all of the problems. We need full scale wars for that kind of pilfering.

Vets are not cost effective, once they are used up they are cast out no matter what they did, who they are, etc.. I'm sure that some few ultra rich people and politicians are very thankful though and those of us who have ever served can rest easier knowing that we were used to further their ambitions.

 

[Caitlynne]

It's just part of the machine.

There is no profit to be made in just taking out the individuals who cause all of the problems. We need full scale wars for that kind of pilfering.

Vets are not cost effective, once they are used up they are cast out no matter what they did, who they are, etc.. I'm sure that some few ultra rich people and politicians are very thankful though and those of us who have ever served can rest easier knowing that we were used to further their ambitions.

I could not have said it better. The "Support our troops" is just a slogan to most politicians and corporations. War is big money, and we need boots on the ground to make them bucks. Your boots aren't on the ground? You're injured? Need help with PTSS? Screw you. What was your name again?

The public doesn't know how bad it is. It's more than no care at the VA, and homelessness, it's also vets fighting for their disability at all. Vets have to battle their own government for a fair % of disability. The Vets get screwed from the day they come back, and the politicians use them in photo ops to get re-elected and take us to even more wars.

Our tax dollars at work folks.

All we can do is not let them be forgotten. Don't let their service to us be used as propaganda for a politician. Don't let them fight Walter Reed and the VA alone. Be loud about it, and phone and/or email your representative and tell them "Take care of this or I'll move heaven and earth to make sure you are not re-elected".

 

[Homburg]

So have we always been "doing that" and it's just that now people dig harder or are things, as I worry, just getting worse in this regard?

I personally think there is a war on the people who would have been middle class if there were still more mobility and less insane distribution. Let's face it, it's the lure of economic opportunity to people who have no other lure of economic opportunity that drives this puppy, not merely a mix of ideologies, but the firm belief that you are taking a risk, doing something important AND charting your way to the possibility of a better life.

That possibility gets smaller and smaller it appears. People still believe in it, but now the evidence points to delusion over belief.

Eh. One of my best friends in the world, my brother from anothe rmother, is proof that the system works. He dropped out of high school at 16 and was working as a laborer on a construction site. He's a brilliant guy and a natural with computers, building BBs'es back before it was simple, and doing all kinds of network stuff by sheer ability to get the machines and make them hum.

He'd made noise about going into the military but was hung up on taking the GED exam (he is phobic about tests). I basically tricked him into coming to the Adult Education office with me one day and then calmly told him that I would break his right arm if he didn't sign up for the exam and show up for the test. He looked at me, asked if I was serious. I was, he saw it. He signed up, got his GED, and enlisted in the army shortly after, arm happily unbroken.

He paid attention during enlistment, made sure that everything wa sin writing, and got his ducks in a row. He paid attention while in the service, and took every educational oppurtunity that came his way. He got out, and parlayed his military skills, security clearances, and computer skills into an increasingly more lucrative series of IT jobs, culminating in a $160k+ a year contract position in Iraq.

Not bad for an orphan and high school dropout that has never had a day of college in his life.

He is unfortunately the exception, not the rule, and would likely have done well anyway. The army simply allowed him to do well in a vastly different direction, and one that was not going to leave him broken at a young age. The system still works, you just have to be smart enough to take advantage of it.

I know this kind of thing still must go on every day. How many congressional sons and daughters are over there? That number was very high in previous conflicts.

I read an article on it somewhere. There are congrassional sons and daughters over there. It's not some amazing number, but they're there.

 

[Netzach]

Eh. One of my best friends in the world, my brother from anothe rmother, is proof that the system works. He dropped out of high school at 16 and was working as a laborer on a construction site. He's a brilliant guy and a natural with computers, building BBs'es back before it was simple, and doing all kinds of network stuff by sheer ability to get the machines and make them hum.

He'd made noise about going into the military but was hung up on taking the GED exam (he is phobic about tests). I basically tricked him into coming to the Adult Education office with me one day and then calmly told him that I would break his right arm if he didn't sign up for the exam and show up for the test. He looked at me, asked if I was serious. I was, he saw it. He signed up, got his GED, and enlisted in the army shortly after, arm happily unbroken.

He paid attention during enlistment, made sure that everything wa sin writing, and got his ducks in a row. He paid attention while in the service, and took every educational oppurtunity that came his way. He got out, and parlayed his military skills, security clearances, and computer skills into an increasingly more lucrative series of IT jobs, culminating in a $160k+ a year contract position in Iraq.

Not bad for an orphan and high school dropout that has never had a day of college in his life.

He is unfortunately the exception, not the rule, and would likely have done well anyway. The army simply allowed him to do well in a vastly different direction, and one that was not going to leave him broken at a young age. The system still works, you just have to be smart enough to take advantage of it.




I read an article on it somewhere. There are congrassional sons and daughters over there. It's not some amazing number, but they're there.

Oh I guess someone finally caved. At the time I first heard the question asked it was a resounding none, maybe 2 years ago.

Your friend's story is essentially how this should function, or should be able to function if someone has the brightness and drive, as he clearly did. I've worked for a lot of guys with similar backgrounds, and H has worked with a lot of guys with similar backgrounds...mostly in the 45-60 age range to date.

One needs a house to get a job! One needs a residence to apply to go to school!

I play this story against the narratives in the Walter Reed one and it's hard to imagine that there are not doors shutting more often than opening.

 

[Shankara20]

Homburg, I would be interested to know your opinion on whether there should be an active draft in this country.

Anyone else should feel free to address this, obviously, but I'm asking for your perspective directly because of the background presented in this post.

This is my gut response - it is late and the end of a long day so I am concerned my post will not be fully developed, it will not present the complicated opinion I have, and I might unintentionally offend someone - and that is not my intention.

I joined the Navy in the 60's to avoid being drafted out of college into the Army to become fodder for Viet Nam. I enjoyed the Navy and proud of my service, but I am no combat veteran.

I believe the draft in the late 60's directly led to the strong anti-war moment of that time - that drove Pres. Johnson out of office and plagued Pres. Nixon until he self-destructed. If we had a draft in the US right now, with no deferments of any kind, that drafted males and females alike, it is my feeling that we would have anti-war protests that would make the 60's and 70's look like nothing at all.

My oldest son is in the US Air Force and he is against the draft. He says he does not want to go into combat with someone next to him that that was forced into the fight. I can see his point.

I would like to see the US have a value system that encouraged everyone to give to the country in some way for at least two years direct service between high school and college - military service, teachers aid, - something to help us all while sorting out what to study if they do go on to college.

These are just some random thoughts.

I am also heart sick about how we have failed to support those we have placed in harms way. These young men and women are going where they are told, doing that they are told to do, being killed and wounded, killing others, as directed by men of power sitting is safe places far away from harm. They deserve our respect and our continuing emotional and financial support as long as needed - for their full lifetime.

A study done by San Francisco General Hospital Trauma Unit found, from researching Veterans Admin. files, that of the men who saw combat in Viet Nam, 21 1/2% committed acts of criminal violence upon their spouses at some point after returning home. That is a huge percentage. The damage of war is inflected on the veterans, their families, their communities. When we as a country decide to go to war we must tend to the wounded - all those damaged.

And I have not even started talking about the people in the country we invade - but that is for some other discussion.

Sorry for the rant.

 

[Homburg]

"No way" is exactly what I was thinking when I first read it. No fucking way.

For those who haven't read it, here is a link to the article that broke the Walter Reed story, written by two reporters who spent four months secretly interviewing people without the Army's permission.

That is the exact article I read. Four times. Still can't quite believe that this is/was going on.

--

Homburg, I would be interested to know your opinion on whether there should be an active draft in this country.

Anyone else should feel free to address this, obviously, but I'm asking for your perspective directly because of the background presented in this post.

*sigh*

This is a complex issue for me, and not one that I am even remotely comfortable with. Some political background on me is a little necessary before I go too much further. I am an independent, and best described as a Minarchist. I recognise the need for government, but my primary criteria for my personal acceptance of it is that we should only have the minimum govt necessary to assist in the functioning of society. It is certainly unrealistic, as the first question to be asked is who decides what is the minimum, but the gist remains true. I dislike government in general, and distrust it.

Specifically, I want the least amount of State intrusion into my life, and the lives of others, as possible. By definition, there is almost no way that the government can interfere more strongly and completely than demanding that someone serve in the military by law. Killing someone is actually less disturbing in my eyes, as military service in time of war can easily lead to fates worse than death in the eyes of many (having to kill others, for example, being horribly mangled in combat, etc).

So, by core and default political leanings, my answer is not just no, but HELL NO. Fuck the Draft. Come near my kids with that Draft paperwork and I'm gonna grab my gun and bar the door. That is my initial reaction.

But some things run deeper than politics. Some things run deeper than happy, shiny philsophical leanings towards freedom and escape from State-run tyranny.

I spent the first 17 years of my life on military bases. I've seen every type of person in armyg reen, good, bad, and indifferent. I've seen men and woman give everything they had and more for that uniform, and, more commonly, for the other fellow in that uniform. By way of example, I could sit here for an hour and tell stories of how many times my mom and I met my dad in the emergency room because were there to help out the family of one of his soldiers. Moreover, I can tell you stories of how many time smy dad was the soldier lying in that hospital bed because he'd gotten himself wrecked trying to do his job, or more often, pulling some dumb shit pogue out of a bad situation.

And, most telling for me as an Army Brat, I've lost friends because their families went back to their Mom's hometown because their Dad paid the ultimate price. That's where it hits me, y'know? I can talk about the sacrifices my pop made, but I knew kids who lost way more than me. I've seen what happens when Dad or Mom isn't going to come home again, and all that the spouse has to show for it is a flag, a letter, and a check.

That side of me says yes. We need a draft.

Logical? Maybe not, but Charlie Rangel, dickhead that he is, is right about one thing. If our sons and daughters were getting letters that pulled them from our bosoms, we, as a people, would stop this pointless bullshit. I won't argue about the war. The occupation fucking blows, and we're feeding kids into the meat grinder for nothing.

I hate the draft. My dad hated it passionately. He despised the geeks that were brought in under the draft and hated having them in his bays. They were unmotivated and basically useless. My dad volunteered, and kept right on volunteering for 24 years. He was a professional soldier and was damned proud of what he did. I wouldn't wish draftees on the military for any other reaons than I'm sick of thinking of all the kids that were just like me having to move someplace else because Mom or Dad isn't going to come home.

I'm not going to pretend that any of this is a logical, well-constructed argument, and I'm not likely to try to discuss or support it after the fact. You asked me how I felt based on my background, so I put myself back in the shoes of 12 year old me hearing the news that the 82nd Airborne had just lost a shitload of troops to high winds in a jump in California, and knowing that my dad was jumping in California that day. I put myself in the shoes of late teenaged me watching the news every night during Gulf War I knowing my Pop was right there, y'know, in that little piece of shit base that just took a scud.

That me says "Fuck you, I want my dad back home, not dying in some pointless cock-up of an occupation." That me says extreme political measures are needed to motivate the sleeping masses that suck up twinkies and watch American Idol instead of the news.

No more Gold Star Moms, please.

 

[Betticus]

I guess part of the problem is that we as a worldwide society are apathetic.

We suck.