This makes me ill

[catalina_francisco]

There is a lot lacking in help for those who have served in the armed forces in many of our so-called developed countries. There has been a lot of media coverage in the UK recently about their payout system to those injured in war. The maximum amount payable is 285,000 GBP. A paratrooper injured in Afghanistan last year received just 152,000 despite losing both legs, suffering brain injury, fractures to his skull, cheekbone, nose, jaw, pelvis and vertebrae and serious damage to his spleen and chest. After his mother causing waves, the MoD has increased the amount to their 285,000 maximum. Seems very little to provide for future care for the rest of his life, not to mention the pain and suffering encountered. Armed forces are fodder for the war machine driven by those in safe houses with plenty of life's comforts within constant reach.

Catalina

 

[JMohegan]

If our sons and daughters were getting letters that pulled them from our bosoms, we, as a people, would stop this pointless bullshit.

Thanks for responding, Homburg. I appreciate the depth of your response, and no - I don't think any of it sounds illogical. Complicated, yes. Illogical, no.

I pulled out the sentence above because I think it gets right to the heart of the matter. Democracy only really works, in my opinion, if the result of the democratic process has a direct and measurable impact on its citizens.

 

[NALA CAYENNE]

Please repost this or bump it or something when it gets closer to the date.

Will do

 

[Homburg]

Thanks for responding, Homburg. I appreciate the depth of your response, and no - I don't think any of it sounds illogical. Complicated, yes. Illogical, no.

I pulled out the sentence above because I think it gets right to the heart of the matter. Democracy only really works, in my opinion, if the result of the democratic process has a direct and measurable impact on its citizens.

*nod*

My views on this issue are complex, and, as I said, difficult for me. It was an insightful question, and while it put me in a very unpleasant place emotionally, as well as bringing up some unpleasant momories, it was worthwhile if only to get myself set in my own opinion on the issue.

Will you be answering your own question?

 

[JMohegan]

This part of your post (below) is kind of what my point is.

anyone who trusts the government to really take care of them after they come home from war is niave.

You're right about this, but the fact is that there are people who are enlisting who are just that. They are admitting it, and because of that they're making life-altering decisions without being fully informed. If they're going to make the sacrifices that they do for all of us, then I just think it should somehow be mandatory that there is some kind of counseling or something offered before they enlist. I don't know how this would work or if it's even a feaseable (sp?) idea, but I just think that there should be some way of making sure that they are giving informed consent before enlisting.

Click me, and contrast that slick recruiting website to the articles linked previously on this thread and comments from people like RJ.

 

[JMohegan]

*nod*

My views on this issue are complex, and, as I said, difficult for me. It was an insightful question, and while it put me in a very unpleasant place emotionally, as well as bringing up some unpleasant momories, it was worthwhile if only to get myself set in my own opinion on the issue.

Will you be answering your own question?

Yes - I already did.

See my post 50. I agreed with Shank, and for precisely the reasons he mentioned. My comment about democracy was made to reinforce both his remarks, and yours about "pointless bullshit."

We need a draft because we desperately need citizens who are invested in the outcome of the democratic process. I agree that the issues are complex, but that's my bottom line opinion on the subject.

 

[Homburg]

Yes - I already did.

See my post 50. I agreed with Shank, and for precisely the reasons he mentioned. My comment about democracy was made to reinforce both his remarks, and yours about "pointless bullshit."

We need a draft because we desperately need citizens who are invested in the outcome of the democratic process. I agree that the issues are complex, but that's my bottom line opinion on the subject.

Thanks, I missed that one.

 

[intothewoods]

Interesting discussion. Even if we didn't have a draft, I would like to see us sacrificing more as a country, similar to the way we did during wwII. Those of us not in the army seem to not be affected in any way by the war, and it's just not right.

 

[Homburg]

Interesting discussion. Even if we didn't have a draft, I would like to see us sacrificing more as a country, similar to the way we did during wwII. Those of us not in the army seem to not be affected in any way by the war, and it's just not right.

With all the deployments going on, and the number of ships on station, my entire area is in an economic slump. The military is the backbone of this region economically, and having thie many sailors, soldiers, airmen, and marines gone is killing us.

Trust me, in this area, we feel it.

 

[ecstaticsub]

/snip/

I'm sorry to be so harsh, but anyone who makes it to 18 without the understanding that signing up for the military means you agree you're ok with being killed, maimed, or otherwise damaged is an idiot. anyone who trusts the government to really take care of them after they come home from war is niave. (Not saying it can't happen or never happens - just that the mere fact of the government being involved pretty much guarantees it will be a long drawn out difficult proccess.) The military exsists to kill people and break things. It is their job. Even in times of "peace" it is still their job, which is why they teach people to do things like shoot guns and make them practice it a lot. I have a really hard time believing someone can reach the age of maturity, and not understand the risks of joining the military.

Twenty odd years ago when my husband decided to join the military he fully understood the fact he may have to someday kill or be killed. That is different though then actually doing the killing. Or even more different than being deployed and working to rebuid a community, put in roads, sanitation, wells, and a school. Then getting people to donate supplies to that school. The school is there and children are being taught and the community is starting to thrive. But then one day you hear that the school was attacted, the young female teacher was raped in front of her students and then killed. The school was then burnt to the ground.

Yeah, ok one joins the military and is told they may see some really horrible things, or be involved in some really horrible things. They may read all about it. But reality is different.

The military does so much more than just drop bombs and shoot people. There are military doctors, lawyers, civil engineers etc etc. The military is also different than it was 20 yrs ago. The "Do More with Less " mentality and repeated deployments with no end in sight are taking their toll.

 

[Netzach]

Honestly, I don't know many people who at 18 are capable of imaginging the worst things that can happen to them and basing a decision on them whatsoever. There's a reason 30-50 year olds aren't fresh on the ground grunts and it's not just physical - the 18-26 year old brain is literally limited in its ability to base decisions off the ends as much as when one hits 30.

The countries that REALLY get it right have child soldiers - but that's just an interesting and morbid sidebar.

The line in the Reed story that just tore out my heart is the mom saying they have spanish speaking recruiters, but no translators to help him out now.

 

[Netzach]

You're preaching to the choir here as far as I'm concerned, but dare I suggest that the furnishing of "basic decencies" should not hinge on military service or victimhood in a large scale natural disaster?

I realize that the issues are complex, but generally speaking, to put it in grossly over-simplified terms: "They're here and they're hungry" is a good enough reason for me.

Pinko.

 

[JMohegan]

Pinko.

Suck-up.

 

[half_full]

Homburg, I would be interested to know your opinion on whether there should be an active draft in this country.

Anyone else should feel free to address this, obviously, but I'm asking for your perspective directly because of the background presented in this post.

JM, I would like to answer this if you don't mind. It is something that has touched me personally. Military service runs strong in my family. I joined the Army right out of high school. It was the 80's, during the cold war, but we were at peace for the time being. I believed in service and would have gone to war, not because I necessarily believed in war, but I believed in duty. Politically I supported the Reagan administration, because that's what you do when you're in the military. I've never believed in or supported a draft because I thought it diminished the honor of serving. I've never questioned those who serve now because I recognize that it is a personal choice. Now, I have a 16 yr old son and a 17 yr old daughter who'll turn 18 in a few weeks. They are both scheduled to start college in Jan. I've worked hard my whole life to give them opportunities I never had. Last weekend my daughter announced that she had been talking with a recruiter and wanted to join the army. I couldn't be more devastated. Now I have a personal stake in this war in a way I never thought possible. I am re-evaluating for myself whether a draft is not the wakeup call we need. I don't have an answer yet but I sure am thinking about it.

 

[JMohegan]

JM, I would like to answer this if you don't mind. It is something that has touched me personally. Military service runs strong in my family. I joined the Army right out of high school. It was the 80's, during the cold war, but we were at peace for the time being. I believed in service and would have gone to war, not because I necessarily believed in war, but I believed in duty. Politically I supported the Reagan administration, because that's what you do when you're in the military. I've never believed in or supported a draft because I thought it diminished the honor of serving. I've never questioned those who serve now because I recognize that it is a personal choice. Now, I have a 16 yr old son and a 17 yr old daughter who'll turn 18 in a few weeks. They are both scheduled to start college in Jan. I've worked hard my whole life to give them opportunities I never had. Last weekend my daughter announced that she had been talking with a recruiter and wanted to join the army. I couldn't be more devastated. Now I have a personal stake in this war in a way I never thought possible. I am re-evaluating for myself whether a draft is not the wakeup call we need. I don't have an answer yet but I sure am thinking about it.

No problem. Thanks for addressing the question.

 

[Shankara20]

JM, I would like to answer this if you don't mind. It is something that has touched me personally. Military service runs strong in my family. I joined the Army right out of high school. It was the 80's, during the cold war, but we were at peace for the time being. I believed in service and would have gone to war, not because I necessarily believed in war, but I believed in duty. Politically I supported the Reagan administration, because that's what you do when you're in the military. I've never believed in or supported a draft because I thought it diminished the honor of serving. I've never questioned those who serve now because I recognize that it is a personal choice. Now, I have a 16 yr old son and a 17 yr old daughter who'll turn 18 in a few weeks. They are both scheduled to start college in Jan. I've worked hard my whole life to give them opportunities I never had. Last weekend my daughter announced that she had been talking with a recruiter and wanted to join the army. I couldn't be more devastated. Now I have a personal stake in this war in a way I never thought possible. I am re-evaluating for myself whether a draft is not the wakeup call we need. I don't have an answer yet but I sure am thinking about it.

your post touched me in a way I cannot explain right now, I wish you and your family all the best sorting out all the issues now before you all.

 

[Homburg]

I couldn't be more devastated. Now I have a personal stake in this war in a way I never thought possible.

Regardless of any possible disagreements we may have, believe me when I say that I wish you and your daughter hte best. My one saving grace at this moment is that none of mine are old enough to make this choice.

 

[half_full]

Regardless of any possible disagreements we may have, believe me when I say that I wish you and your daughter hte best. My one saving grace at this moment is that none of mine are old enough to make this choice.

Thanks. You know, mine weren't old enough either when this war started so I didn't have a personal stake in it. If there had been a draft in place, I probably would have thought twice about supporting the war.

 

[half_full]

your post touched me in a way I cannot explain right now, I wish you and your family all the best sorting out all the issues now before you all.

Thanks alot. I can't kick her ass, I can't reason with her. And for once, I wish the media would show MORE graphic scenes of death and destruction, not less.

 

[Homburg]

Thanks. You know, mine weren't old enough either when this war started so I didn't have a personal stake in it. If there had been a draft in place, I probably would have thought twice about supporting the war.

If we're still involved by the time my oldest is old enough, we are SO fucked.

As an aside, I never supported the war. I didn't argue against it though, and apathy, in this case, is as much a problem for me as actively supporting it. I should've stood up and said "No" solely on principle.

War is not something to be apathetic about....

 

[half_full]

If we're still involved by the time my oldest is old enough, we are SO fucked.

As an aside, I never supported the war. I didn't argue against it though, and apathy, in this case, is as much a problem for me as actively supporting it. I should've stood up and said "No" solely on principle.

War is not something to be apathetic about....

On this issue, you and I are in complete agreement.

 

[Shankara20]

Thanks alot. I can't kick her ass, I can't reason with her. And for once, I wish the media would show MORE graphic scenes of death and destruction, not less.

*sigh*
welcome to child rearing.

it is difficult to watch a child of your own go off to war.

 

[half_full]

*sigh*
welcome to child rearing.

it is difficult to watch a child of your own go off to war.

That's not it. It's not the war entirely. It's the whole fucking mess. I am so angry right now I want to break out in tears every time I think about it. I took my daughter out to lunch today to try and talk some sense into her. I tried to explain to her the realities of the situation and what she might be getting herself in to. She said, "Oh Mom, you don't know what you are talking about. I watch the news too and it's not all like that. Some of the soldiers are building schools and they're passing out candy to the kids." I felt as if the breath had been knocked out of me.

For a brief moment I was 19 again and on my first training mission overseas. I went to S. Korea to participate in annual 'war games' with other divisions from the Pacific Rim. I was part of an Aviation Battalion that set up camp in the very rural countryside far from any modern towns or urban areas. The people there were unimaginably poor. There was no modern housing or amenities, just some makeshift shelters fashioned out of scrap wood and aluminum siding. Most were subsistance farmers living off their crops and whatever else they could scavenge from land. The kids were endlessly fascinated by our presence and many had no exposure to the modern world beyond their family farms. We would give them candy and you could tell it was the first time many of them had ever had chocolate. There are no words to describe that feeling you get when you see a kid taste chocolate for the first time. It feels like you are changing the world. It was like a scene out of MASH or something. Some of the kids would pick strawberries from their fields and trade us for candy. Every day for three weeks I watched our helecopters land in this poor farmer's rice field. The rotor blades would scatter his seeds and the straw laid down to protect them. I'd watch him and his entire family out there every day trying to repair the fields. One day I asked one of the pilots "Why are we destroying this man's crops? How is he going to feed his family?" He said, "Don't worry about it. Our government has worked something out with their government." So I asked him "How does that help this farmer?" and he said, "It won't be our problem now, will it."

Well, that was my first lesson in foreign policy. After that day, I quit giving the kids candy. It just seemed pointless and cruel. I remember having deep feelings of sadness and despair after that-almost like I had been disillusioned-like I wasn't part of the solution but part of the problem. I've tried to raise my kids to be people who will make the world a better place, not contribute to its madness. It's the absolute low point in a parents life when you realize that your kids are not better than you - they are you. My daughter is every bit the idealist I was and I can already feel her sadness the day she realizes it's not just candy.