Ham Murabi
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Hooper_X said:
I was in the military. It was nothing like what you just described.
This just in from John Kerry:
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I was in the military. It was nothing like what you just described.
Ham Murabi
Plumbing the Depths
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Hooper_X said:
I have served. There were a number of misfits who were weeded out during basic and AIT. After that it was pretty much just normal folks.
busybody..
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landslider2000
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Kerry's problem in 2006 was the same as in 1971 -- rhetorical excess.
Kerry didn't serve one day in ground combat, but testified in 1971 that rape, torture, and genocide were common.
2.7 million men served at least 4 times longer than Kerry in Vietnam.
Kerry doesn't get to be the only one to speak.
Kerry didn't serve one day in ground combat, but testified in 1971 that rape, torture, and genocide were common.
2.7 million men served at least 4 times longer than Kerry in Vietnam.
Kerry doesn't get to be the only one to speak.
busybody..
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landslider2000 said:
when you wrote this you MISSED the essential element
what he said was HE ACTUALLY saw the TORTURE and GENOCIDE committed
what he said was THOUSANDS of US troops committed these atrocities
in an April 18 1971 Meet The Press interview where he again said the above he was asked if he, Kerry HIMSELF was guilty of these acts
he said
YES!
that was why the Swift Boat Guys were after him, with the same accusations since 1971
It took till 2004 for him to say that HE MADE THIS ALL UP
based on what he heard from returing vets, namely the White Winter guys
and that turns out that MOST of THOSE guys were NOT vets at all!
busybody..
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He plotted to KILL US SENATORS!
it is a DEAD HORSE
but Im sure MOST of you all have NO IDEA about this
“Smart” John Kerry Discussed Killing 6 Pro-War Senators
November 5th, 2006
The following is an excerpt from a book, "Winter Soldiers," by Richard Staciewicz, pp 294-295:
John Kerry appears on Meet The Press in April, 1971 with VVAW co-leader Al Hubbard. "Captain" Hubbard claimed to have been wounded in combat during his service as a pilot in Vietnam. It was subsequently revealed that Hubbard was in reality a supply sergeant who had never been to Vietnam who had injured himself playing basketball.
http://www.sweetness-light.com/wp-content/photos/Kerry/MTP%20Vid.jpg
In the fall of 1971, tensions over the direction in which the organization was heading, as it spread out into various community activities and took on a more consciously anti-imperialist position, were becoming more evident. In November, an emergency meeting of the steering committee was held in Kansas City. This meeting was a result of the growing friction among members of the steering committee, and between new members and the old leadership…
[Terry DuBose] TDB: That was also where there was actually some discussion of assassinating some senators during the Christmas holidays. They were people who I knew from the organization with hotheaded rhetoric.
They had a list of six senators … Helms, John Tower, and I can’t remember the others, who they wanted to assassinate when they adjourned for Christmas. They were the ones voting to fund the war. They approached me about assassinating John Tower because he was from Texas. The logic made a certain amount of sense because there’s thousands of people dying in southeast Asia. We can shoot these six people and probably stop it. Some of us were willing to sabotage materials, but when it came to people … I mean, there were a lot of angry people…
The following is from Gerald Nicosia’s book, "Home To War," pp 221-223:
[Scott] Camil proposed VVAW return in force to Washington, D.C., and there apply pressure in every conceivable way to the legislators who were still voting to fund the war. After the assembly of coordinators defeated the plan, he was told it was “a closed issue at this point." Camil replied that such a tactic was "never a closed issue." He then made known an even more radical proposal, which he intended to submit to the coordinators for their approval. If undertaken, he claimed, it would guarantee the end of congressional support for the war. It was this proposal that nearly blew the Kansas City convention wide open, and which branded Camil as both dangerous and crazy for the remainder of his time in the organization.
What Camil sketched was so explosive that the coordinators feared lest government agents even hear of it. So they decamped to a church on the outskirts of town with the intention of debating the plan in complete privacy. When they got the church, however, they found that the government was already on to them; their "debugging expert" uncovered microphones hidden all over the place. An instantaneous decision was made to move again - to Common Ground, a Mennonite hall used by homeless vets as a "crash pad," on 77th Terrace. This time a vote was taken to exclude anyone but regional coordinators and members the national office. The rest of the members, even trusted leaders such as Randy Barnes and John Upton (who had earned their credibility in the mud and tears of Dewey Canvon III), were forced to wait outside on the grass, where messengers brought frequent word of what was going on inside. According to Barnes, everybody knew that the discussion in that hall "was grounds for criminal indictment of conspiracy."
Discussion was not exactly the word for it. John Upton recalls it being "a knock-down-drag-out [fight] at times." Randy Barnes remembers "people standing up on the tables yelling and screaming at one another." The proposal that fired so much anger was called the "Phoenix plan," in mockery of the U.S. government’s similar program in Vietnam. There was, in fact, good evidence that the United States Studies and Observation Group (SOG) - known to those inside it as the Special Operations Group - had used its own Special Forces, those of South Vietnam, and even South Vietnamese mercenaries to murder various Communist and Communist-sympathizing village chiefs, political leaders,* and other influential citizens in South Vietnam. Some say as many as 10,000 were assassinated, in order (theoretically) to rebuild a more democratic infrastructure in the south. Hence the name "Phoenix": a better, stronger Vietnam was supposed to rise from the ashes of the Communist-tainted one. Similarly, Camil now proposed the assassination of the most hard-core conservative members of Congress, as well as any other powerful, intractable opponents of the antiwar movement - the ones who would rather die than see America suffer a military defeat in Vietnam. Fine, let them die, suggested Camil - in fact, help them along in that direction and once they were cleared out of the way, a truly democratic America could arise, one that would choose to be at peace with the rest of the world.
When the Phoenix plan first came before the steering committee meeting, John Upton had been standing almost next to Camil, and he recalls that "at first it was laughed off. Then he [Camil] became really irate, and some other people that were supporting that got really irate, and it got down to a really hard discussion about it. There was a time, I’m not kidding you, I was almost one of them. Especially when we moved over to 77th Terrace, a lot of people were convinced that this was the way to do it. I thought it was a novel idea, but it was not something I would support. I looked on it as doing just what we were fighting against. It was killing people for no [good] reason. I remember saying this, and somebody stood up and called me a ‘moderate’! If I went an inch more crazier than I was, I could have endorsed it one hundred percent. Scott was pissed off just like I was. He was one of those people I really identified with * with the anger I saw there. My whole instinct here was, `Let’s demonstrate and do these things against the fucking war, to get the word out. Let’s talk in high schools. But let’s do things legal. Let’s get the right permits.’ The Phoenix plan was like, that’s what needs to be done, but, God, we can’t really do that."
The Phoenix plan, like the rest of Camil’s proposals, was voted down in Kansas City, but its specter had only begun to haunt the organization; and, ironically enough, among those whose imaginations it enflamed were those very agents who had been charged with finding a way to destroy VVAW.
When questioned about this discussion about killing six pro-war Senators during the campaign Mr. Kerry first claimed that he was not at the VVAW’s Kansas City meeting. However subsequent research by me (and Tom Lipscomb) has shown that in fact he did attend.
It should be noted that Mr. Kerry never reported this discussion of assassinating six US Senators to any authorities.
Apparently that’s not what "smart" people do.
it is a DEAD HORSE
but Im sure MOST of you all have NO IDEA about this
“Smart” John Kerry Discussed Killing 6 Pro-War Senators
November 5th, 2006
The following is an excerpt from a book, "Winter Soldiers," by Richard Staciewicz, pp 294-295:
John Kerry appears on Meet The Press in April, 1971 with VVAW co-leader Al Hubbard. "Captain" Hubbard claimed to have been wounded in combat during his service as a pilot in Vietnam. It was subsequently revealed that Hubbard was in reality a supply sergeant who had never been to Vietnam who had injured himself playing basketball.
http://www.sweetness-light.com/wp-content/photos/Kerry/MTP%20Vid.jpg
In the fall of 1971, tensions over the direction in which the organization was heading, as it spread out into various community activities and took on a more consciously anti-imperialist position, were becoming more evident. In November, an emergency meeting of the steering committee was held in Kansas City. This meeting was a result of the growing friction among members of the steering committee, and between new members and the old leadership…
[Terry DuBose] TDB: That was also where there was actually some discussion of assassinating some senators during the Christmas holidays. They were people who I knew from the organization with hotheaded rhetoric.
They had a list of six senators … Helms, John Tower, and I can’t remember the others, who they wanted to assassinate when they adjourned for Christmas. They were the ones voting to fund the war. They approached me about assassinating John Tower because he was from Texas. The logic made a certain amount of sense because there’s thousands of people dying in southeast Asia. We can shoot these six people and probably stop it. Some of us were willing to sabotage materials, but when it came to people … I mean, there were a lot of angry people…
The following is from Gerald Nicosia’s book, "Home To War," pp 221-223:
[Scott] Camil proposed VVAW return in force to Washington, D.C., and there apply pressure in every conceivable way to the legislators who were still voting to fund the war. After the assembly of coordinators defeated the plan, he was told it was “a closed issue at this point." Camil replied that such a tactic was "never a closed issue." He then made known an even more radical proposal, which he intended to submit to the coordinators for their approval. If undertaken, he claimed, it would guarantee the end of congressional support for the war. It was this proposal that nearly blew the Kansas City convention wide open, and which branded Camil as both dangerous and crazy for the remainder of his time in the organization.
What Camil sketched was so explosive that the coordinators feared lest government agents even hear of it. So they decamped to a church on the outskirts of town with the intention of debating the plan in complete privacy. When they got the church, however, they found that the government was already on to them; their "debugging expert" uncovered microphones hidden all over the place. An instantaneous decision was made to move again - to Common Ground, a Mennonite hall used by homeless vets as a "crash pad," on 77th Terrace. This time a vote was taken to exclude anyone but regional coordinators and members the national office. The rest of the members, even trusted leaders such as Randy Barnes and John Upton (who had earned their credibility in the mud and tears of Dewey Canvon III), were forced to wait outside on the grass, where messengers brought frequent word of what was going on inside. According to Barnes, everybody knew that the discussion in that hall "was grounds for criminal indictment of conspiracy."
Discussion was not exactly the word for it. John Upton recalls it being "a knock-down-drag-out [fight] at times." Randy Barnes remembers "people standing up on the tables yelling and screaming at one another." The proposal that fired so much anger was called the "Phoenix plan," in mockery of the U.S. government’s similar program in Vietnam. There was, in fact, good evidence that the United States Studies and Observation Group (SOG) - known to those inside it as the Special Operations Group - had used its own Special Forces, those of South Vietnam, and even South Vietnamese mercenaries to murder various Communist and Communist-sympathizing village chiefs, political leaders,* and other influential citizens in South Vietnam. Some say as many as 10,000 were assassinated, in order (theoretically) to rebuild a more democratic infrastructure in the south. Hence the name "Phoenix": a better, stronger Vietnam was supposed to rise from the ashes of the Communist-tainted one. Similarly, Camil now proposed the assassination of the most hard-core conservative members of Congress, as well as any other powerful, intractable opponents of the antiwar movement - the ones who would rather die than see America suffer a military defeat in Vietnam. Fine, let them die, suggested Camil - in fact, help them along in that direction and once they were cleared out of the way, a truly democratic America could arise, one that would choose to be at peace with the rest of the world.
When the Phoenix plan first came before the steering committee meeting, John Upton had been standing almost next to Camil, and he recalls that "at first it was laughed off. Then he [Camil] became really irate, and some other people that were supporting that got really irate, and it got down to a really hard discussion about it. There was a time, I’m not kidding you, I was almost one of them. Especially when we moved over to 77th Terrace, a lot of people were convinced that this was the way to do it. I thought it was a novel idea, but it was not something I would support. I looked on it as doing just what we were fighting against. It was killing people for no [good] reason. I remember saying this, and somebody stood up and called me a ‘moderate’! If I went an inch more crazier than I was, I could have endorsed it one hundred percent. Scott was pissed off just like I was. He was one of those people I really identified with * with the anger I saw there. My whole instinct here was, `Let’s demonstrate and do these things against the fucking war, to get the word out. Let’s talk in high schools. But let’s do things legal. Let’s get the right permits.’ The Phoenix plan was like, that’s what needs to be done, but, God, we can’t really do that."
The Phoenix plan, like the rest of Camil’s proposals, was voted down in Kansas City, but its specter had only begun to haunt the organization; and, ironically enough, among those whose imaginations it enflamed were those very agents who had been charged with finding a way to destroy VVAW.
When questioned about this discussion about killing six pro-war Senators during the campaign Mr. Kerry first claimed that he was not at the VVAW’s Kansas City meeting. However subsequent research by me (and Tom Lipscomb) has shown that in fact he did attend.
It should be noted that Mr. Kerry never reported this discussion of assassinating six US Senators to any authorities.
Apparently that’s not what "smart" people do.
busybody..
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“Smart” John Kerry Negotiated With The Enemy In 1970
November 5th, 2006
Lest we forget John Kerry’s attitude towards our troops in time of war. As I have mentioned elsewhere, John Kerry met with the Vietcong and North Vietnamese in Paris in May of 1970.
Kerry was so proud of (illegally) negotiating with our country’s enemies, he brought it up in his testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in April 22, 1971:
http://www.sweetness-light.com/wp-content/photos/Kerry/vvaw.jpg
First peace meeting between Kerry’s group the Vietnam Veterans Against War and the NLF, Paris, 1971
LEGISLATIVE PROPOSALS RELATING TO THE WAR IN SOUTHEAST ASIA
THURSDAY, APRIL 22, 1971
UNITED STATES SENATE;
COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN RELATIONS,
Washington, D.C.
The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 11:05 a.m., in Room 4221, New Senate Office Building, Senator J. W. Fulbright (Chairman) presiding.
Present: Senators Fulbright, Symington, Pell, Aiken, Case, and Javits.
The CHAIRMAN. Do you support or do you have any particular views about any one of them you wish to give the committee?
Mr. KERRY. My feeling, Senator, is undoubtedly this Congress, and I don’t mean to sound pessimistic, but I do not believe that this Congress will, in fact, end the war as we would like to, which is immediately and unilaterally and, therefore, if I were to speak I would say we would set a date and the date obviously would be the earliest possible date. But I would like to say, in answering that, that I do not believe it is necessary to stall any longer. I have been to Paris. I have talked with both delegations at the peace talks, that is to say the Democratic Republic of Vietnam and the Provisional Revolutionary Government and of all eight of Madam Binh’s points it has been stated time and time again, and was stated by Senator Vance Hartke when he returned from Paris, and it has been stated by many other officials of this Government, if the United States were to set a date for withdrawal the prisoners of war would be returned…
In fact, in his same testimony, Mr. Kerry admitted that his actions were questionable, to put it mildly:
Mr. KERRY. Mr. Chairman, I realize that full well as a study of political science. I realize that we cannot negotiate treaties and I realize that even my visits in Paris, precedents had been set by Senator McCarthy and others, in a sense are on the borderline of private individuals negotiating, et cetera. I understand these things…
Indeed, Kerry had gone to meet with the North Vietnamese and Vietcong delegation in Paris during his honeymoon, a full year before the rest of his Vietnam Veterans Against War (VVAW) went there for further negotiations.
From the Boston Globe:
Kerry spoke of meeting negotiators on Vietnam
By Michael Kranish and Patrick Healy, Globe Staff, 3/25/2004
WASHINGTON — In a question-and-answer session before a Senate committee in 1971, John F. Kerry, who was a leading antiwar activist at the time, asserted that 200,000 Vietnamese per year were being "murdered by the United States of America" and said he had gone to Paris and "talked with both delegations at the peace talks" and met with communist representatives.
Kerry, now the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, yesterday confirmed through a spokesman that he did go to Paris and talked privately with a leading communist representative. But the spokesman played down the extent of Kerry’s role and said Kerry did not engage in negotiations…
Kerry’s speech before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on April 22, 1971, is one of the best-known moments of his life when he was involved in Vietnam Veterans Against the War. In that speech, Kerry asked: "How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?"
But the follow-up session of questions and answers, made public at the time in the official proceedings of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, has received little mainstream notice until now.
When Kerry was asked by committee chairman Senator J. William Fulbright how he proposed to end the war, the former Navy lieutenant said it should be ended immediately and mentioned his involvement in peace talks in Paris.
"I have been to Paris," Kerry said. "I have talked with both delegations at the peace talks, that is to say the Democratic Republic of Vietnam and the Provisional Revolutionary Government and of all eight of Madam Binh’s points . . . ."
The latter was a reference to a communist group based in South Vietnam. Historian Stanley Karnow, author of "Vietnam: A History," described the Provisional Revolutionary Government as "an arm of the North Vietnamese government." Madam Nguyen Thi Binh was a leader of the group and had a list of peace-talk points, including the suggestion that US prisoners of war would be released when American forces withdrew.
After their May 1970 marriage, Kerry traveled to Paris with his wife, Julia Thorne, on a private trip, Meehan said. Kerry did not go to Paris with the intention of meeting with participants in the peace talks or involving himself in the negotiations, Meehan added, saying that while there Kerry had his brief meeting with Binh, which included members of both delegations to the peace talks.
Julia Thorne and John Kerry in 1972
Note that in Kerry’s 1971 Senate testimony, after he finished his prepared statement, he was asked for his advice on how to end the war. What he suggested was accept the terms of the Vietcong as presented to me by their Foreign Minister Madam Binh. He reiterated this several times over the rest of his lengthy comments to the Senate.
Indeed, Kerry was a major propagandist for the so-called "People’s Peace Treaty." His group, the VVAW had signed it–in a ceremony–and Kerry promoted it at every opportunity. This "treaty" incorporated every one of the Vietcong’s points.
Here are all eight of Madam Binh’s points (Binh was the Foreign Minister for the Vietcong) spelled out in the "People’s Peace Treaty" that Kerry and the VVAW and signed, and which they demanded the US sign with North Vietnam and the National Liberation Front:
Joint Treaty of Peace Between the People of The United States of America, South Vietnam and North Vietnam
Preamble
Be it known that the American people and the Vietnamese people are not enemies. The war is carried out in the names of the people of the United States and South Vietnam, but without our consent. It destroys the land and people of Vietnam. It drains America of its resources, its youth, and its honor.
We hereby agree to end the war on the following terms, so that both peoples can live under the joy of independence and can devote themselves to building a society based on human equality and respect for the earth. In rejecting the war we also reject all forms of racism and discrimination against people based on color, class, sex, national origin, and ethnic grouping which form the basis of the war policies, past and present, of the United States government.
Terms of Peace Treaty
1. The Americans agree to immediate and total withdrawal from Vietnam, and publicly to set the date by which all U.S. military forces will be removed.
2. The Vietnamese pledge that as soon as the U. S. government publicly sets a date for total withdrawal: they will enter discussions to secure the release of all American prisoners, including pilots captured while bombing North Vietnam.
3. There will be an immediate cease-fire between U. S. forces and those led by the Provisional Revolutionary Government of South Vietnam.
4. They will enter discussions on the procedures to guarantee the safety of all withdrawing troops.
5. The Americans pledge to end the imposition of Thieu-Ky-Khiem on the people of South Vietnam in order to insure their right to self-determination and so that all political prisoners can be released.
6. The Vietnamese pledge to form a provisional coalition government to organize democratic elections. All parties agree to respect the results of elections in which all South Vietnamese can participate freely without the presence of any foreign troops.
7. The South Vietnamese pledge to enter discussion of procedures to guarantee the safety and political freedom of those South Vietnamese who have collaborated with the U. S. or with U. S. -supported regimes.
8. The Americans and Vietnamese agree to respect the independence, peace and neutrality of Laos and Cambodia in accord with the 1954 and 1962 Geneva Conventions and not to interfere in the internal affairs of these two countries.
9. Upon these points of agreement, we pledge to end the war and resolve all other questions in the spirit of self-determination and mutual respect for the independence and political freedom of the people of Vietnam and the United States.
Pledge
By ratifying this agreement, we pledge to take whatever actions are appropriate to implement the terms of the People to people Treaty and to insure its acceptance by the government of the United States.
So there can be no doubt that Mr. Kerry met with the North Vietnamese and Vietcong delegation as a "negotiator," which of course is illegal and seditious.
But that is what "smart, highly educated" people do, apparently.
November 5th, 2006
Lest we forget John Kerry’s attitude towards our troops in time of war. As I have mentioned elsewhere, John Kerry met with the Vietcong and North Vietnamese in Paris in May of 1970.
Kerry was so proud of (illegally) negotiating with our country’s enemies, he brought it up in his testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in April 22, 1971:
http://www.sweetness-light.com/wp-content/photos/Kerry/vvaw.jpg
First peace meeting between Kerry’s group the Vietnam Veterans Against War and the NLF, Paris, 1971
LEGISLATIVE PROPOSALS RELATING TO THE WAR IN SOUTHEAST ASIA
THURSDAY, APRIL 22, 1971
UNITED STATES SENATE;
COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN RELATIONS,
Washington, D.C.
The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 11:05 a.m., in Room 4221, New Senate Office Building, Senator J. W. Fulbright (Chairman) presiding.
Present: Senators Fulbright, Symington, Pell, Aiken, Case, and Javits.
The CHAIRMAN. Do you support or do you have any particular views about any one of them you wish to give the committee?
Mr. KERRY. My feeling, Senator, is undoubtedly this Congress, and I don’t mean to sound pessimistic, but I do not believe that this Congress will, in fact, end the war as we would like to, which is immediately and unilaterally and, therefore, if I were to speak I would say we would set a date and the date obviously would be the earliest possible date. But I would like to say, in answering that, that I do not believe it is necessary to stall any longer. I have been to Paris. I have talked with both delegations at the peace talks, that is to say the Democratic Republic of Vietnam and the Provisional Revolutionary Government and of all eight of Madam Binh’s points it has been stated time and time again, and was stated by Senator Vance Hartke when he returned from Paris, and it has been stated by many other officials of this Government, if the United States were to set a date for withdrawal the prisoners of war would be returned…
In fact, in his same testimony, Mr. Kerry admitted that his actions were questionable, to put it mildly:
Mr. KERRY. Mr. Chairman, I realize that full well as a study of political science. I realize that we cannot negotiate treaties and I realize that even my visits in Paris, precedents had been set by Senator McCarthy and others, in a sense are on the borderline of private individuals negotiating, et cetera. I understand these things…
Indeed, Kerry had gone to meet with the North Vietnamese and Vietcong delegation in Paris during his honeymoon, a full year before the rest of his Vietnam Veterans Against War (VVAW) went there for further negotiations.
From the Boston Globe:
Kerry spoke of meeting negotiators on Vietnam
By Michael Kranish and Patrick Healy, Globe Staff, 3/25/2004
WASHINGTON — In a question-and-answer session before a Senate committee in 1971, John F. Kerry, who was a leading antiwar activist at the time, asserted that 200,000 Vietnamese per year were being "murdered by the United States of America" and said he had gone to Paris and "talked with both delegations at the peace talks" and met with communist representatives.
Kerry, now the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, yesterday confirmed through a spokesman that he did go to Paris and talked privately with a leading communist representative. But the spokesman played down the extent of Kerry’s role and said Kerry did not engage in negotiations…
Kerry’s speech before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on April 22, 1971, is one of the best-known moments of his life when he was involved in Vietnam Veterans Against the War. In that speech, Kerry asked: "How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?"
But the follow-up session of questions and answers, made public at the time in the official proceedings of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, has received little mainstream notice until now.
When Kerry was asked by committee chairman Senator J. William Fulbright how he proposed to end the war, the former Navy lieutenant said it should be ended immediately and mentioned his involvement in peace talks in Paris.
"I have been to Paris," Kerry said. "I have talked with both delegations at the peace talks, that is to say the Democratic Republic of Vietnam and the Provisional Revolutionary Government and of all eight of Madam Binh’s points . . . ."
The latter was a reference to a communist group based in South Vietnam. Historian Stanley Karnow, author of "Vietnam: A History," described the Provisional Revolutionary Government as "an arm of the North Vietnamese government." Madam Nguyen Thi Binh was a leader of the group and had a list of peace-talk points, including the suggestion that US prisoners of war would be released when American forces withdrew.
After their May 1970 marriage, Kerry traveled to Paris with his wife, Julia Thorne, on a private trip, Meehan said. Kerry did not go to Paris with the intention of meeting with participants in the peace talks or involving himself in the negotiations, Meehan added, saying that while there Kerry had his brief meeting with Binh, which included members of both delegations to the peace talks.
Julia Thorne and John Kerry in 1972
Note that in Kerry’s 1971 Senate testimony, after he finished his prepared statement, he was asked for his advice on how to end the war. What he suggested was accept the terms of the Vietcong as presented to me by their Foreign Minister Madam Binh. He reiterated this several times over the rest of his lengthy comments to the Senate.
Indeed, Kerry was a major propagandist for the so-called "People’s Peace Treaty." His group, the VVAW had signed it–in a ceremony–and Kerry promoted it at every opportunity. This "treaty" incorporated every one of the Vietcong’s points.
Here are all eight of Madam Binh’s points (Binh was the Foreign Minister for the Vietcong) spelled out in the "People’s Peace Treaty" that Kerry and the VVAW and signed, and which they demanded the US sign with North Vietnam and the National Liberation Front:
Joint Treaty of Peace Between the People of The United States of America, South Vietnam and North Vietnam
Preamble
Be it known that the American people and the Vietnamese people are not enemies. The war is carried out in the names of the people of the United States and South Vietnam, but without our consent. It destroys the land and people of Vietnam. It drains America of its resources, its youth, and its honor.
We hereby agree to end the war on the following terms, so that both peoples can live under the joy of independence and can devote themselves to building a society based on human equality and respect for the earth. In rejecting the war we also reject all forms of racism and discrimination against people based on color, class, sex, national origin, and ethnic grouping which form the basis of the war policies, past and present, of the United States government.
Terms of Peace Treaty
1. The Americans agree to immediate and total withdrawal from Vietnam, and publicly to set the date by which all U.S. military forces will be removed.
2. The Vietnamese pledge that as soon as the U. S. government publicly sets a date for total withdrawal: they will enter discussions to secure the release of all American prisoners, including pilots captured while bombing North Vietnam.
3. There will be an immediate cease-fire between U. S. forces and those led by the Provisional Revolutionary Government of South Vietnam.
4. They will enter discussions on the procedures to guarantee the safety of all withdrawing troops.
5. The Americans pledge to end the imposition of Thieu-Ky-Khiem on the people of South Vietnam in order to insure their right to self-determination and so that all political prisoners can be released.
6. The Vietnamese pledge to form a provisional coalition government to organize democratic elections. All parties agree to respect the results of elections in which all South Vietnamese can participate freely without the presence of any foreign troops.
7. The South Vietnamese pledge to enter discussion of procedures to guarantee the safety and political freedom of those South Vietnamese who have collaborated with the U. S. or with U. S. -supported regimes.
8. The Americans and Vietnamese agree to respect the independence, peace and neutrality of Laos and Cambodia in accord with the 1954 and 1962 Geneva Conventions and not to interfere in the internal affairs of these two countries.
9. Upon these points of agreement, we pledge to end the war and resolve all other questions in the spirit of self-determination and mutual respect for the independence and political freedom of the people of Vietnam and the United States.
Pledge
By ratifying this agreement, we pledge to take whatever actions are appropriate to implement the terms of the People to people Treaty and to insure its acceptance by the government of the United States.
So there can be no doubt that Mr. Kerry met with the North Vietnamese and Vietcong delegation as a "negotiator," which of course is illegal and seditious.
But that is what "smart, highly educated" people do, apparently.
Ham Murabi
Plumbing the Depths
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2002
- Posts
- 23,159
BB's posts remind me of that Dick Cavett show with Kerry and a veteran who supported the action in Vietnam.
The pro-war speaker said a pullout would lead to a bloodbath. Kerry sniffed at the idea (commies love peace, doncha know) and Cavett said, "Oh, I really don't think anyone believes that will happen."
History proved otherwise.
The pro-war speaker said a pullout would lead to a bloodbath. Kerry sniffed at the idea (commies love peace, doncha know) and Cavett said, "Oh, I really don't think anyone believes that will happen."
History proved otherwise.
Peregrinator
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Maybe you weren't infantry? That might explain the difference between your experience and Hoop's. Infantry seems to me to have a much higher percentage of folks who joined because they thought they had few options at home, as Hoop said. The other MOSes seem to be more of a variety.Ham Murabi said:
Ham Murabi
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Speaking of dead horses, did BB bother to mention Kerry got his honorable discharge during the Carter administration? Makes you wonder what the original discharge was. General? Dishonorable?
busybody..
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in addition to THATIshmael said:
he claimed a medal was given, and signed for by the Sec of (I dont recall)
during the campaign that Secretary DENIED he ever signed anything!
Kerry is NOT releasing the RECORDS for a damn good reason
busybody..
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SeanH said:
New Witness: Kerry Was Present at Dark Plot Meeting
Group Debated and Voted Down Plan To Assassinate Senators
By THOMAS H. LIPSCOMB
Oregon Magazine
March 15, 2004
Another witness has come forward to attest that John Kerry was at a November 1971 meeting of Vietnam Veterans Against the War at which the group debated and voted down a plan to assassinate senators who supported the Vietnam War.
A Kerry campaign spokesman, David Wade, has said Mr. Kerry did not attend the Kansas City meeting, and Kerry biographer Douglas Brinkley has said Mr. Kerry told him he was a "no show."
"Kerry may have resigned shortly after that meeting or at the meeting…" recalled the VVAW Kansas State coordinator at the time, John Musgrave, in an interview that was published Saturday in the Kansas City Star. Mr. Musgrave is the third VVAW member at the time that has been named as seeing Mr. Kerry at Kansas City. Mr. Musgrave specifically remembered Mr. Kerry's attendance and his speaking against the murder plot against the senators.
The Star cited the national director of Veterans for Kerry, a former VVAW member, John Hurley, as saying: "I think he is confusing the St. Louis and Kansas City meetings." But if Mr. Hurley is acknowledging that Mr. Kerry was present at the earlier St. Louis meeting, he is disagreeing with the Kerry spokesman, Mr. Wade, and calling into doubt a recent statement by Mr. Kerry.
At a Capitol Hill press conference Thursday, Mr. Kerry was asked by a reporter if he thought his credibility had been affected by his close association with Al Hubbard, a key VVAW colleague of Mr. Kerry's who had appointed him to the leadership of Vietnam Veterans Against the War.
Mr. Hubbard claimed to be a wounded Air Force officer who had served at Danang during the Vietnam War. He appeared with Mr. Kerry many times, including the "Meet the Press" interview after Mr. Kerry's Senate testimony about American "war crimes" in Vietnam. But Mr. Hubbard was never in Vietnam, was never wounded, and was not an officer, as subsequent research and Mr. Kerry himself have pointed out.
Mr. Kerry answered he had not spoken to Mr. Hubbard since the week of April 19, 1971. But in the New York Times of August 30, 1971, reporter Enid Nemy, covering an East Hampton fund-raising party for the Vietnam Veterans Against the War, states: "Later, Mr. Kerry and Al Hubbard, another veteran, explained some of the aims of the organization…." Those present included journalists Jimmy Breslin and Peter Maas, Bruce Jay Friedman, Tom Paxton, and Patricia Kennedy Lawford.
In separate interviews with The New York Sun, both VVAW member Terry DuBose and Kerry biographer Mr. Brinkley have confirmed Mr. Kerry's presence at the July St. Louis steering committee meeting of the VVAW.
Gerald Nicosia, author of the 2001 book "Home to War," also writes that Mr. Kerry was at that meeting. In a memorable account, Mr. Nicosia said Mr. Kerry "resigned from the executive committee" after a spectacular argument with Mr. Hubbard. "Kerry made a long speech punctuated at frequent intervals by the demand: 'Who is Al Hubbard?'" and "challenged him to prove he was a Vietnam veteran." According to the book, Mr. Hubbard "freaked out" and screamed insults at Mr. Kerry.
In the Kansas City Star account, one of the three veterans who has placed Mr. Kerry at the Kansas City meeting, Randy Barnes, first was quoted as saying Mr. Kerry was in Kansas City, which is what he had stated in his interview with the Sun.
According to the Star, "upon reflection later in the day [Barnes stated] that he could 'not be absolutely certain' that Kerry was in Kansas City for the meeting."
Terry DuBose, who initially remembered a great deal, began having failures of memory on a third call. And Scott Camil, who in his interview with the Sun could not recall whether Mr. Kerry was at the Kansas City meeting, suddenly remembered in talking with the Star several days later that Mr. Kerry was not.
In a March 13, 2004, story, the New York Times cited concern among Democrats about "careless utterances of a fatigued, or undisciplined candidate," but Mr. Wade reassured that "every statement he made we stand by."
Thomas Lipscomb is a regular contributor to Oregon Magazine. He grew up in Portland and ended up in New York City. After a stint as a writer for the Times, he founded that newspaper's book division. He may be reached by sending an email to tomlipscomb@mindspring.com
busybody..
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during the campaign, the Swift Boaters were portrayed as a Rovian plot, as a Repoh plan, as a conservative hit man against Kerry
This IGNORES 34 years of history
John Oneil and Co have been after him from 1971, their story never changed. Kerry's always did!
This IGNORES 34 years of history
John Oneil and Co have been after him from 1971, their story never changed. Kerry's always did!
busybody..
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busybody..
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no one
not even he ever denied HE KNEW about the ASSASINATION plot!
NOT EVEN HE
spin all you want
Kerry is a disgusting loathsome vile creature
not even he ever denied HE KNEW about the ASSASINATION plot!
NOT EVEN HE
spin all you want
Kerry is a disgusting loathsome vile creature
Sean
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OK, answer a question for me. If Kerry was implicated in a plot to assassinate six US senators, why wasn't it THE biggest gun used to attack him in '04? If true it's a WAY bigger story than the swift boat thing. The GOP would have been proclaiming it from the rooftops twenty four hours a day.busybody said:
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That's a good question. Why didn't they call for him to be prosecuted for treason?SeanH said:
