the marks of a slave

[rida]

. . . . . some things are better left unsaid . . . .

*nod*

Words, sometime, take on a life of their own.




No, I did not read what was written before. It is a thought I've been dealing with myself.

 

[CurvAppeal]

*nod*

Words, sometime, take on a life of their own.




No, I did not read what was written before. It is a thought I've been dealing with myself.

=)

Beautiful Corset by the way, I have a similar one.

(sorry to go off topic, felt it was needed for half a second haha)

 

[rida]

Too many questions, too many thoughts for my brain at this time. So I focused to just one at the moment. Sorry for the snippage:

My questions today -

Every time I need to bring things back in balance in our world, (always for the sake of the kids), I need to step away from my extreme sexuality and the deepest slave mindset it evokes.

Is it because I want to live there always? . . . Maybe I would stop judging myself so harshly if I simply recognized that very few people engage with their sexuality on a full-time basis - especially with kids in the house. I am able to recognize the waxing and waning of our sexual energies as such - but, interestingly enough, as our sexual energies wane, so does my overt obedience.

Why can't he recognize the fact that I am still openly, actively serving him, on a daily basis, while still taking care of myself and our children?

As a mother, I realized that there is a master above everything and anybody, a master that comes before my own needs, my work's needs, my husband'd needs and my Master's needs: the needs of my children. Everything else is subordinate to it.

A tricky balancing act where I often fail and let balls fall. *sigh*




@CurvAppeal: thanks!

 

[eastern sun]

As a mother, I realized that there is a master above everything and anybody, a master that comes before my own needs, my work's needs, my husband'd needs and my Master's needs: the needs of my children. Everything else is subordinate to it.

Quoted for truth! Though there are moments when you have to put on your own oxygen mask before helping them with theirs if you want a chance to survive long enough to be able to help them. . . .
(I've always been impressed by the fact that airlines have to tell us that every single time we get on the plane. For most of us, it goes against our instincts and inclinations.)

It's good to see you, rida. How are you doing?

 

[eastern sun]

We're back on the same side of the equation.

Working together, we can accomplish great things. Our skills and talents complement each other beautifully.

Working against each other, those same complementary skills and talents can be very effective as well.

 

[rida]

Quoted for truth! Though there are moments when you have to put on your own oxygen mask before helping them with theirs if you want a chance to survive long enough to be able to help them. . . .
(I've always been impressed by the fact that airlines have to tell us that every single time we get on the plane. For most of us, it goes against our instincts and inclinations.)

It's good to see you, rida. How are you doing?

The oxygen mask thing is so counter-intuitive for our mother instincts, isn't it?

I'm actually trying to find oxygen-mask time for myself while keeping more balls that I care of handling at once, up in the air ...

Among other things, your comments about addiction and codependency are being digested

 

[eastern sun]

I have cringed every single time anyone mentioned codependency and power exchange in the same post, which always made me think I should probably take a look at it. And I'm cringing now every time I read my own posts to this forum, but I'm going to stick with this for a little while longer as a I sort through the debris. And beg your forgiveness.

**************************************

I'm still trying to figure out how codependency really manifests itself in our relationship, so we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

There is at the heart of our dynamics a very natural balance of complementary traits, personalities, perspectives and behavior. Allowed to flow freely, without undue self-consciousness and fear, the power exchange is a natural by-product of "who we are together."

So, why do we run into trouble?

(And I define trouble here as - "he doesn't feel his interests are being served by me while I feel like I'm reshaping myself on a daily basis to meet his needs - and I don't feel like my needs are being met while he feels like he's literally killing himself to take care of his family - and both of us, and our children too, feel unloved." - and just for the record, we run into this trouble and then get ourselves out of it on a fairly regular basis, so it isn't a constant state of the relationship, just a familiar pit we fall into over and over again. Maybe we won't ever stop falling, but I'd like to try to find another path - maybe one with shallower pits - if I can.)

There's lots of learned behavior that we've brought to this relationship - and which, unfortunately, we seem to be passing on to our children. Blaming others for our unhappiness. Believing we need to be entirely self-sufficient. Never asking for help. Holding ourselves to unreasonably high expectations. Using fear and shame as motivation for behavior.

We lose trust easily. And then become defensive as we feel threatened. And we both do it, it has nothing to do with dominance or submissiveness. I think it's as rooted in our animal instincts as our dominance and submissiveness, but it's a product of our experiences as we developed through childhood and adolescence.

It's the immature coping mechanisms we developed in order to "get our needs met" in an uncertain and/or chaotic world. And it's rooted in the fundamental belief that our needs will not be met. That's the error we make.

Then, in the midst of this life we're leading, in which good and bad things happen, we grab onto every scrap of evidence to support that erroneous belief, validating what we've known all along.

Somewhere in all this behavior is an opening. A gap in which we can just let go.

What if I accepted, in this moment, difficult and painful as it can be, that my needs are being met?

Ok. See? Just saying it makes me want to scream to the heavens, "My needs are only met because of the actions I have taken !!!!!"

And I hear the heavens whisper to me. . . . "Yes. Why does that make you so angry?"

 

[Cattypuss]

What if I accepted, in this moment, difficult and painful as it can be, that my needs are being met?

Ok. See? Just saying it makes me want to scream to the heavens, "My needs are only met because of the actions I have taken !!!!!"

And I hear the heavens whisper to me. . . . "Yes. Why does that make you so angry?"

I think for me (and I doubt I'm alone in this) the answer to that question is something like "Because my inner child is still waiting to be parented in the style of good parents. Good parents love unconditionally and they look to meet their children's needs - and to get its needs met, the child has to do nothing but be a child and swallow up that unconditional love and that pro-active meeting of needs".

This is a hot button for me because my needs were not met when I was a child, in major, major ways, even when I cried out for them to be met - because my parents were very, very far from being good parents. I doubt I am alone in that, especially among addicts and recovering addicts.

Edited to add: I keep telling myself that I haven't got a time machine, so I will never be able to go back and have a better childhood - and that adults don't get their needs magically met by others in the way that children of god parents do. That there is nothing wrong with the fact that my needs only get met when I see to it that they do, because, after all, I'm, an adult now. It is how it should be.

Getting myself to listen to that? Whole other ball game

 

[intothewoods]

How are you two codependent, es?

On another note, when I read your description of "trouble" above, my first thought is whether this "trouble" is mostly a byproduct of being stressed out parents. You have three kids, right? And you live in NYC - a busy, hectic, expensive place to live.

Or maybe I just have all of those studies about how miserable parents are swirling around my head. (As we fantasize about having a third... )

 

[eastern sun]

How are you two codependent, es?

On another note, when I read your description of "trouble" above, my first thought is whether this "trouble" is mostly a byproduct of being stressed out parents. You have three kids, right? And you live in NYC - a busy, hectic, expensive place to live.

Or maybe I just have all of those studies about how miserable parents are swirling around my head. (As we fantasize about having a third... )

I'm not even sure we are, itw. Both of us come from families of alcoholics. And we have a pretty volatile relationship. We've always been able to reconnect, but we do experience periods of withdrawal, isolation, resentment, threat and verbal or (once in a while) physical attacks. And either of us can be the aggressor. We're fairly evenly matched.

But I have observed codependent behaviors in myself since I was an adolescent. Mostly in obsessional thinking about relationships that don't really exist, neglecting my own development by focussing all my attention on someone else, becoming emotionally crippled while I unsuccessfully try to change other people's behavior, wanting to rescue people, propping up my own self-esteem by being the "good one" in the relationship.

Once in a while I fall into that with my husband, but more frequently I'm the "bad one" and he gets to be the "good one." Where I'm really acting it all out right now is in my relationship with my son. That's what's prompted me to take a serious look into Al-Anon's message.

I've had some pretty serious emotional problems stemming from the shame and fear I feel when I interact with his schools. And I've been doing a lot of "excuse-making" for him while obsessively trying to change his behavior. In the last few weeks, I have literally been standing there watching myself compulsively talking and talking and criticizing and moralizing and lecturing and talking and talking, until it is so painful for both of us, all I've succeeded in doing is making us both feel like shit. . . . But it feels like I'm trying to place a huge wall of words between me and reality. Words that capture what "should be." Like if I say them often enough, the reality they conjure will manifest - like magic - in our lives.

Just writing this, of course, makes me wonder if all these words I've written here aren't just part of that pattern. But . . . whatever.

I know it's been good for me to take a look at my behavior as a parent to my son.

And once the denial was pierced there, and I was able to see what I was doing, it changed my perspective in my relationship with my husband as well.

But I have a different relationship with my husband than my son. At least, I'd like to. It's been valuable to look at things through this lens. Not sexy. And not the stuff of fantasy, to be sure. But sobering.

Our sexual relationship stays what it is. And our pairing is what it has always been.

When one partner makes changes in their behavior, though, it always affects the balance of the partnership. (I also quit eating sugar. It's been a month. And it feels great. But there are changes occurring in me, independent of my husband's wishes and demands. It will take a while to sort through the implications.)

My hope is that we end up back in the center of our sexual highs, with a healthier me.

I also think you're right, it all could be just normal parenting issues, like my need to let go of my son as he matures - a normal, typical parenting event. I just need help to manage it emotionally, or I'll keep acting on the mistaken beliefs that he can't live without me . . and that I will be worthless, except as a sexual being, without him (i.e being his caretaker).

And for a woman hitting menopause, looking at my primary worth as a function of my sexuality is a pretty intimidating view.

 

[eastern sun]

I think for me (and I doubt I'm alone in this) the answer to that question is something like "Because my inner child is still waiting to be parented in the style of good parents. Good parents love unconditionally and they look to meet their children's needs - and to get its needs met, the child has to do nothing but be a child and swallow up that unconditional love and that pro-active meeting of needs".

This is a hot button for me because my needs were not met when I was a child, in major, major ways, even when I cried out for them to be met - because my parents were very, very far from being good parents. I doubt I am alone in that, especially among addicts and recovering addicts.

Edited to add: I keep telling myself that I haven't got a time machine, so I will never be able to go back and have a better childhood - and that adults don't get their needs magically met by others in the way that children of god parents do. That there is nothing wrong with the fact that my needs only get met when I see to it that they do, because, after all, I'm, an adult now. It is how it should be.

Getting myself to listen to that? Whole other ball game

I totallly understand what you're saying, Cattypuss, and I think you're right. But I no longer believe that there are "good parents." There are good decisions and bad decisions. Honestly, how many of us really know how to offer unconditional love to the people who live with us? With whom we share our lives? For a moment, sure. Maybe even for a string of days.

But, it is so much easier for me to love "strangers" than it is for me to love my family.

And I really, deeply love them!

I am even considered a "good parent" by some. And I can still point to deep wounds that I have caused in moments of great stress, fear, anger and self-centered arrogance. And chronic festering wounds that were caused by my neglect, while I was distracted, or weary, or preoccupied (sometimes for months).

I'm being harsh, perhaps. But I'm facing a judgement day of my own. And I really think it's time for me to let go of the anger and hostility that arises when I have to take care of myself.

(I mean it really is kind of ludicrous. . . . I'm living like an equal exchange is possible here. I'll take care of you. You take care of me. The problem is - most of the time, I don't really know what you need. And you don't know what I need. Maybe unconditional love has nothing to do with "taking care of" or "being cared for.")

What the hell is unconditional love? Being present with someone? Accepting whatever is offered?

Isn't this what I was hoping to learn how to do when I became slave?

 

[intothewoods]

I'm not even sure we are, itw. Both of us come from families of alcoholics. And we have a pretty volatile relationship. We've always been able to reconnect, but we do experience periods of withdrawal, isolation, resentment, threat and verbal or (once in a while) physical attacks. And either of us can be the aggressor. We're fairly evenly matched.

But I have observed codependent behaviors in myself since I was an adolescent. Mostly in obsessional thinking about relationships that don't really exist, neglecting my own development by focussing all my attention on someone else, becoming emotionally crippled while I unsuccessfully try to change other people's behavior, wanting to rescue people, propping up my own self-esteem by being the "good one" in the relationship.

I've totally been in that zone. This is sort of minor, but I was telling a friend of mine that I'm hardly obsessive at all now. And my friend (who is divorcing and doing therapy, looking closely at relationships, etc.) said that it must be because I'm getting what I need. Yeahhh, but really? I think it's because I have a husband who is always online and reachable.

Can it really be that easy? Just odd that that issue seems to have evaporated. Maybe we're equally codependent. I suppose for me that issue has always been less codependency and more irrational anxiety about something terrible happening.

Once in a while I fall into that with my husband, but more frequently I'm the "bad one" and he gets to be the "good one." Where I'm really acting it all out right now is in my relationship with my son. That's what's prompted me to take a serious look into Al-Anon's message.

I've had some pretty serious emotional problems stemming from the shame and fear I feel when I interact with his schools. And I've been doing a lot of "excuse-making" for him while obsessively trying to change his behavior. In the last few weeks, I have literally been standing there watching myself compulsively talking and talking and criticizing and moralizing and lecturing and talking and talking, until it is so painful for both of us, all I've succeeded in doing is making us both feel like shit. . . . But it feels like I'm trying to place a huge wall of words between me and reality. Words that capture what "should be." Like if I say them often enough, the reality they conjure will manifest - like magic - in our lives.

Just writing this, of course, makes me wonder if all these words I've written here aren't just part of that pattern. But . . . whatever.

I know it's been good for me to take a look at my behavior as a parent to my son.

And once the denial was pierced there, and I was able to see what I was doing, it changed my perspective in my relationship with my husband as well.

But I have a different relationship with my husband than my son. At least, I'd like to. It's been valuable to look at things through this lens. Not sexy. And not the stuff of fantasy, to be sure. But sobering.

Our sexual relationship stays what it is. And our pairing is what it has always been.

When one partner makes changes in their behavior, though, it always affects the balance of the partnership. (I also quit eating sugar. It's been a month. And it feels great. But there are changes occurring in me, independent of my husband's wishes and demands. It will take a while to sort through the implications.)

My hope is that we end up back in the center of our sexual highs, with a healthier me.

I also think you're right, it all could be just normal parenting issues, like my need to let go of my son as he matures - a normal, typical parenting event. I just need help to manage it emotionally, or I'll keep acting on the mistaken beliefs that he can't live without me . . and that I will be worthless, except as a sexual being, without him (i.e being his caretaker).

And for a woman hitting menopause, looking at my primary worth as a function of my sexuality is a pretty intimidating view.

I think this part of parenting is so tough. I've been a complete wreck since we started the school years, and it's only the beginning! I keep it all hidden, because I know I'm a neurotic freak, but I just find it so hard and take it all really personally. Although - I don't know if you find this in NYC, but I personally think schools in major urban areas are so fucking cuckoo intense that it would make anyone neurotic. Anyway, kudos to you for taking this on.

 

[eastern sun]

I've totally been in that zone. This is sort of minor, but I was telling a friend of mine that I'm hardly obsessive at all now. And my friend (who is divorcing and doing therapy, looking closely at relationships, etc.) said that it must be because I'm getting what I need. Yeahhh, but really? I think it's because I have a husband who is always online and reachable.

Can it really be that easy? Just odd that that issue seems to have evaporated. Maybe we're equally codependent. I suppose for me that issue has always been less codependency and more irrational anxiety about something terrible happening.

I think this part of parenting is so tough. I've been a complete wreck since we started the school years, and it's only the beginning! I keep it all hidden, because I know I'm a neurotic freak, but I just find it so hard and take it all really personally. Although - I don't know if you find this in NYC, but I personally think schools in major urban areas are so fucking cuckoo intense that it would make anyone neurotic. Anyway, kudos to you for taking this on.

Thanks. I want to lose myself in my sex again. Walking the streets with these glazed eyes and honeyed thighs. I like the look in people's eyes when they catch my desire like a contagious disease.

We spent the first ten years of our relationship living and working together. No room for obsession. I loved it.

Kids change everything.

 

[intothewoods]

Thanks. I want to lose myself in my sex again. Walking the streets with these glazed eyes and honeyed thighs. I like the look in people's eyes when they catch my desire like a contagious disease.

We spent the first ten years of our relationship living and working together. No room for obsession. I loved it.

Kids change everything.

bolded part -- Really?? Hmm maybe we're happily codependent. Sounds funny.

I hear you on sex & kids. I'm perpetually repressing that part of me. Reminds me - my former therapist asked if I found comfort in being reined in by someone else's rules. Like I can't be trusted on the loose.

 

[eastern sun]

bolded part -- Really?? Hmm maybe we're happily codependent. Sounds funny.

I hear you on sex & kids. I'm perpetually repressing that part of me. Reminds me - my former therapist asked if I found comfort in being reined in by someone else's rules. Like I can't be trusted on the loose.

Yep. I've thought we were happily co-dependent, too.

And I know, and have proven to both myself and my husband, multiple times over, that I can't be trusted on the loose. He still likes to see me run, though. Loosens that leash and I'm like a dog that's been kept inside too long. . . .

All my talk of spirituality and meditation is my effort towards self-discipline. Sometimes it works.

 

[eastern sun]

"Masters and slaves don't want the same thing. And if they did, it wouldn't be M/s. Fortunately for you, what you want and what I want happen at the same time."

 

[eastern sun]

I've come to like those corrective swats on the ass or the face so much, they only work when I'm already willing to behave. Consequently, he's started stepping on my feet.

It took me a while to realize it was intentional. But it can be a very effective tool if you're out in public.

 

[KoPilot]

You know, ES, you give me a lot to think about and are quite an inspiration, especially in the light of these recent realizations (though I'm sure you'd rather I not appreciate you for that, specifically).

I've thought long and hard about going to some AA-style meetings for codependency in the last few months as I'm looking to make some serious lifelong commitments in the future: getting married and moving in with a partner for the first time. I want to heal myself before diving in, because I don't want to drag him along this journey with me, though I know that this is a long process and I'll be doing just that anyways.

My codependency manifests itself as ugly, icky, control issues; especially with S. Actually, only with S to this extent, which is something I could never had anticipated. I sometimes get these overwhelming urges to subvert, get mean and malicious, defensive, and take control in ugly ways. It's dominance at it's unhealthiest, and it makes me feel sick as I watch myself go through the motions. And of course, it's born of fear and intense anxiety. Belittling comes easier than admission of vulnerability-- especially when you know that you have no reason to feel threatened in the first place. That combination of fear and ego is disastrous.

So I'm trying to work on addressing and dealing with the anxiety, the root of the problem. One technique that I hear therapists use with hoarders is that they go to their house and ask them to put something into a trash bag, then leave it there. They're asked, on a scale from 1 to 10, how much they want to take the item out. It's usually a very strong desire. Then the therapist asks them to remember how they feel, and to think about it for a minute or two, when they ask them how much they want to remove the item again. Usually, the number is lower.

That's what I'm learning to do with myself whenever I get that urge to interfere in a counter-productive way. And what's worse is that it's at odds with my s-type behavior, which IS something that is vital to my personal well-being. (And it's interesting: codependency is one of my top reasons for not wanting children.)

Let's see if it'll work with the upcoming Stanley cup games that S will be dragging me out in public to watch, yeah? (Don't ask why this gets me.. I'm still trying to figure it out.)

Anyways, good luck, ES. I look forward to reading how the program works out for you.

 

[punkreader]

I haven't been able to read through the whole of this thread just yet, but Eastern Sun (and I do hope that you show this post to your husband), I'd just like to say that it sounds like - from what you've written - that you and he have the kind of open, intellectual, but still M/s, relationship that has come to be my ideal as I realize more and more what I want, as I read and learn about BSDM (of which I'm a few-months-recent discoverer). I'm a very independent-minded person, but I want to be able to have that same kind of trust, and keep at least my intellectual desires whilst having my sexual ones (in the role of submissive switch and potential slave - albiet one with disabilities) similarly stimuated. You can both be yourselves as people, and as Master and slave. You clearly respect and love each other and your kids (far more than in any marriage I've seen within my own family), and you're honest.

And I respect both of you very, very highly for that.

Also, how do you manage to make things like getting a cup of coffee and waiting for breakfast so erotic? I'd kill for your powers of description!

 

[eastern sun]

You can both be yourselves as people, and as Master and slave. You clearly respect and love each other and your kids (far more than in any marriage I've seen within my own family), and you're honest.

And I respect both of you very, very highly for that.

Also, how do you manage to make things like getting a cup of coffee and waiting for breakfast so erotic? I'd kill for your powers of description!

Thank you, punkreader.

It can be confusing. Because, frankly, a certain amount of self-negation, or self-denial, turns me on. I like to walk into those places where I feel shame and rejection. But I wouldn't want to live there all the time.

I'm very grateful to live in a relationship where I feel I can be myself, follow my impulses, express my thoughts, desires, opinions and dreams.

It's kind of funny, because I really am quite confident in my self-expression, so I enjoy being told to shut up, and often sing when I feel that humiliating burn after I've made a fool of myself by overstepping some standard of behavior or letting my pride blind me. (I call it the "shame song.") I enjoy having my point of view challenged. And the faults in my behavior safely exposed.

I also like to experience short-term relationships with people in which I am reduced to a simple mirror of their desires. In which the only desire of mine being expressed is my willingness to be the object of their desire. In those cases, I am willing to completely separate myself from my own "agenda." (Something I cannot do - for instance - as a mother when my children's lives are affected.)

It was more than a little confusing for us when we first formalized the M/s dynamics. We both got caught up in wanting to live in some kind of iconic model at one time or another. In the end, we had to let go of all those ideas of "what it's supposed to look like," and just be true to ourselves. Then it kind of takes care of itself.

And that's when getting a cup of coffee, or waiting for breakfast, becomes erotic.

 

[eastern sun]

My codependency manifests itself as ugly, icky, control issues; especially with S. Actually, only with S to this extent, which is something I could never had anticipated. I sometimes get these overwhelming urges to subvert, get mean and malicious, defensive, and take control in ugly ways. It's dominance at it's unhealthiest, and it makes me feel sick as I watch myself go through the motions. And of course, it's born of fear and intense anxiety. Belittling comes easier than admission of vulnerability-- especially when you know that you have no reason to feel threatened in the first place. That combination of fear and ego is disastrous.

So I'm trying to work on addressing and dealing with the anxiety, the root of the problem. One technique that I hear therapists use with hoarders is that they go to their house and ask them to put something into a trash bag, then leave it there. They're asked, on a scale from 1 to 10, how much they want to take the item out. It's usually a very strong desire. Then the therapist asks them to remember how they feel, and to think about it for a minute or two, when they ask them how much they want to remove the item again. Usually, the number is lower.

That's what I'm learning to do with myself whenever I get that urge to interfere in a counter-productive way. And what's worse is that it's at odds with my s-type behavior, which IS something that is vital to my personal well-being. (And it's interesting: codependency is one of my top reasons for not wanting children.)

Let's see if it'll work with the upcoming Stanley cup games that S will be dragging me out in public to watch, yeah? (Don't ask why this gets me.. I'm still trying to figure it out.)

Anyways, good luck, ES. I look forward to reading how the program works out for you.

One of the best side effects of this power exchange experience is the opportunities it has offered me to learn about power/powerlessness and control. Because, really, at the root of it all, we don't have control over anybody other than ourselves. And we all have power to make changes in ourselves.

Bottom line. He can't control me, unless I give him that control. And, sometimes, I need to remind myself that I have made that choice on a moment-to-moment basis.

And looking deeply into one's fears and anxieties is frightening! By definition.

I have this image of our minds as a complex set of tangled, and sometimes conflicting, threads. And I believe that it is possible to follow each thread to its root and discover something very simple and undeniably true. And usually nowhere near as frightening as the whole mental construct I've built on its foundation.

I have to be careful though, that the grief and shame that I feel after I've examined some of my own behaviors don't create further tangles. That's only defeating the purpose of looking at them in the first place.

Good luck, kopilot. I'll keep you updated.

 

[KoPilot]

One of the best side effects of this power exchange experience is the opportunities it has offered me to learn about power/powerlessness and control. Because, really, at the root of it all, we don't have control over anybody other than ourselves. And we all have power to make changes in ourselves.

Bottom line. He can't control me, unless I give him that control. And, sometimes, I need to remind myself that I have made that choice on a moment-to-moment basis.

And looking deeply into one's fears and anxieties is frightening! By definition.

I have this image of our minds as a complex set of tangled, and sometimes conflicting, threads. And I believe that it is possible to follow each thread to its root and discover something very simple and undeniably true. And usually nowhere near as frightening as the whole mental construct I've built on its foundation.

I have to be careful though, that the grief and shame that I feel after I've examined some of my own behaviors don't create further tangles. That's only defeating the purpose of looking at them in the first place.

Good luck, kopilot. I'll keep you updated.

Exactly. Sometimes you start off wanting to sort things out, but get mired in it along the way. Oftentimes (for me, at least), getting stuck like that feels good, but only superficially. Moving past it suddenly seems unappealing, and maybe a little scary. It's really hard to look yourself in the eye and go "No. This isn't what's good for me."

But once you find that clarity, even if it's just a little piece for every thread you follow, it feels great. One less burden.

 

[eastern sun]

Exactly. Sometimes you start off wanting to sort things out, but get mired in it along the way. Oftentimes (for me, at least), getting stuck like that feels good, but only superficially. Moving past it suddenly seems unappealing, and maybe a little scary. It's really hard to look yourself in the eye and go "No. This isn't what's good for me."

But once you find that clarity, even if it's just a little piece for every thread you follow, it feels great. One less burden.

I've found that it's much easier to take action if you think "Yes. This would be good for me" instead.

(i.e. when I was quitting smoking, I realized that I couldn't breathe comfortably without the cigarettes, so I gave myself singing lessons and started practicing yoga. "This would be good for me." It made quitting much, much easier - and I'd tried unsuccessfully more than a few times before.)


edited to add: the same kind of thinking led to my choice to become slave. Behaviors that were uncomfortable and unhealthy in my relationship were transformed with the decision. And not simply because I changed the "label" of them and continued in the same way; reframing the relationship, and wholly embracing my submissive nature (rather than perceiving as a liability), led me to discover much more comfortable and healthier ways of "being who I am."

 

[eastern sun]

I'm back to report that M/s can survive Al-Anon. : )

But the rationalizations and pretense can't.

"Our sexual relationship is over."

We still have sex. But only when he wants to get off, or when I am rejected and so desperate he offers a stand-in. Never as a shared romantic longing.

No. That is now reserved solely for others. And is, and will always be, met with discipline and punishment, if such an inaccurate word can be used to describe that cathartic experience.

We go out as friends, removing our wedding rings.

There is a freshness in even the most brutal honesty that is disarming.

 

[intothewoods]

All because of Al-Anon?

I'm surprised to read this because my impression of you two is of a couple that does share a romantic love for each other. I mean, based on your exchanges here - I'm clearly an expert.