sickening simply sickening

[Todd]

MORE ZERO TOLERANCE STUPIDITY
OK, stand by for another story of supreme government idiocy .. government school idiocy. And this one, like so many others, comes from none other than the Gwinnett County, Georgia school system.

We go to the Five Forks Middle School. Amanda Williams is having her lunch. Later she will be suspended from school for NINE days for violating the schools zero-tolerance policy on drinking alcohol.

So, did Amanda sneak a shooter into school in her Brittany Spears lunchbox? Did she pilfer a beer out to of the fridge in the teacher’s lounge? Was she chugging Nyquil? Nope, none of the above. Amanda was drinking grape juice. She was drinking grape juice she got at the school cafeteria! And no, it wasn’t fermented.

So, how can Amanda be suspended for violating the school’s zero tolerance policy on alcohol --- for drinking grape juice? OK .. here’s the part where you need to be sitting down. Amanda was suspended because she joked with her friends that she was drinking wine. We all know how young girls like to act grownup.. so Amanda is trying to act grown up by joking that she’s drinking wine.

Suspended --- nine days. Mandatory. No exceptions.

Gwinnett County schools also have a zero-tolerance policy on smoking. What if some kid puts a pencil in his mouth and pretends to be taking a drag on a cigarette? Suspended? I guess so! Mandatory, you know. No exceptions!

I would suppose that Gwinnett County schools have a zero-tolerance policy on sexual activity. Well, what if one student confesses to a good friend her dream about a discussion of the big bang theory with the captain of the football team (an easier scenario to believe than the captain of the debate team)? Would revealing a dream violate zero-tolerance?

This is idiocy, my friends. Complete, unadulterated idiocy. These are government employees working in a government institution that has complete control over your child for hours a day … government employees showing the world how idiotic policies produce idiotic results.

Take a closer look at zero-tolerance policies. What is the purpose? The purpose, my friends, is to shield and protect government school administrators from actually having to exercise rational thought process in reviewing student conduct to see if it warrants punishment or not. The purpose is to make the administrator’s jobs easier. A equals B and B equals suspension. No thought -- No consideration -- No review of the facts -- No deliberation -- No thinking --- just acting. A perfect word for the typical government employee to inhabit.

And what do these zero-tolerance policies teach our children? They teach our children that the world is black and white --- no gray. A situation is either this way or its that way – and there can be no in between. It’s a simple bipolar world, good and bad, positive and negative, x or y, and there’s no need to make any use of your intellectual capabilities to interpret those thousands of points between.

In simple terms, zero tolerance policies teach our kids this one important lesson --- a lesson so important to the left. Don’t think. Just react.

You Gwinnett County voters just hit yourself with an extra one percent in sales tax … tens of millions of dollars … to be used by the people who suspended Amanda Williams to build new schools. New monuments to government idiocy.

 

[Willing and Unsure]

Take a closer look at zero-tolerance policies. What is the purpose? The purpose, my friends, is to shield and protect government school administrators from actually having to exercise rational thought process in reviewing student conduct to see if it warrants punishment or not. The purpose is to make the administrator’s jobs easier. A equals B and B equals suspension. No thought -- No consideration -- No review of the facts -- No deliberation -- No thinking --- just acting. A perfect word for the typical government employee to inhabit.

this is where you are wrong. zero-tolerance policies are set up to help clean up the schools, to keep the drugs and alcohol out. it's one of those things where the school is supposed teach the kids about how they shouldnt do drugs or drink alcohol (at least not until you're of legal age) because many parents arent. in my middle school, we had a zero-tolerance rule for all of those same things. and i think its a good thing considering all the weirdos that i went to school with.

and as for the girl pretending to drink wine, that is considered a form of periphenalia, not just a joke or her pretending. she didnt have to pretend she had wine, and if she were, she didnt have to make it such an issue

 

[InSaNe]

Yeah but I mean come on kids are you know kids....you can't just stop them from being so.....so she joked about having wine it but it wasn't she was pretending....I can see how this could go both ways tho some kid could " pretend" to have a gun then it would be a totally different issue....I think they should throw the zero tolerance rule in the trash and just use better judgement crack down harder on the issues that need to be not just suspending kids for pretending about harmless things.

 

[Willing and Unsure]

to use better judgement... how can they tell one kid it's ok, but tell another that's doing the same thing that it's not? if you think about it, there are two types of kids out there... the good ones, and the bad ones.. if one of the bad kids were to be joking around about having wine, then they would be suspended (or whatever), but if one of the good kids was doing the same thing, they wouldnt be. it creates a double standard and poses a huge threat to the schools as to how they discipline for rule breaking. and once that double standard is created, the school is looked down upon and is made out to be "bad for the children" and so on like that

 

[WriterDom]

It's government schools preparing the young for the brave new world of thought control.

 

[InSaNe]

I was lucky enough to get out of school before this zero tolerance epidemic and i was one of the "bad kids" It was just like how you described good kids could get away with more while the bad kids where on a shorter leash but when we went through school noone was bringing guns to school or trying to blow it up...the worst it got was when someone would get in a fight.

 

[miles]

I'm sorry to say this story is true and is the same Middle School my daughter attends. This is so incredibly stupid it boggles the mind. The lesson for the kids is that if it looks like you are breaking the rules, you're guilty of breaking the rules. What a great way to teach no respect for authority.

Zero tolerance = zero common sense.

 

[Gilly Bean]

I agree with Willing and Unsure.

Durgs, Alcohol, and Smoking are getting WAY to easy for kids, and at younger and younger ages now days. I say now days like I am that much removed from it, but I only graduated in 97. I went to a school where nearly everyone smoked, and at least half were heavily into drugs. Nearly all the others had tried it. I stuck out like a sore thumb, seeing as I don't do drugs (never have) nor do I smoke (again, never have). If a child in school around here was saying they were drinking wine, then it is the schools responsibility to investigate it. Almost all schools in this area are 0 tolerance.

Michigan is also a 0 tolerance state with minors for alcohol. You get caught with it, you get your ass busted the first time. No warnings, no slap on the wrist, but in trouble.

Do I think that a child should be suspended for saying something, and joking around? Not nessecerily, but kids DO know the rules of the school in which they go. It is something sophisticated sounding for kids to say, Hey, look, I'm drinking wine. But, look at this way... If it is so sophisticated that at a young age they simulate doing it, how long before they will try it?

I was probably in the 9th grade before I ever tried alcohol, but I know alot of kids at my previous school had tried it as young as the 6th grade. That's what, around 11? 12?

This child may have been doing it innocently, but the overall action shows her friends that it's cool, and tells her that she can be made cool through the use of alcohol. Getting suspended may have been a bit harsh, but I am willing to bet it served the purpose of telling her it isn't cool to drink, or pretend to drink. It may just give her some more pause before she does try it.

 

[Gilly Bean]

I'm sorry to say this story is true and is the same Middle School my daughter attends. This is so incredibly stupid it boggles the mind. The lesson for the kids is that if it looks like you are breaking the rules, you're guilty of breaking the rules. What a great way to teach no respect for authority.

Zero tolerance = zero common sense.

Would you be saying that same thing, were it your daughter who was hanging out with this child, and thinking it was cool and 'right' to drink at such a young impressionable age?

As I said above, I don't think suspension was nessecary, but it was nessecery for the school to teach the kids that drinking is wrong, whether in pretend, or for real.

 

[InSaNe]

Parents got to help with this also the school can't do it alone....but how schools are going about it now miles said it just teaches them no respect for authority

 

[Gilly Bean]

Yes, parents do have to help. And if the parents are fighting it, and making it sound like no big deal to the child, then yes, it does teach her not to respect authority.

My children will be taught (and already are) that smoking, drinking, and drugs, are all bad for them.

My 2 year old plugs his nose and says gross when his grandma's light up a ciggerette. My 5 year old lectures them on how bad it is for them.


So I guess, what's this child learning at home, then, if it is 'cool', not bad, to pretend to drink?


As Willing mentioned, not all parents DO teach kids this stuff. Alot of it IS left to the school. They are working with what they have. They are not miracle workers, and should not be thought of as so, but many parents now do believe that a childs education should come solely from school.

The school has repsonded, by having to get sticter with such extra cirricular activies, like drinking, sneaking in the bathroom to smoke, scoring smokes from your parents, etc.

If a parent routinly smokes in front of a child, but at the same time, says it is bad, what will that show the child? Do as I say, not as I do? Not likely. Children are very absorbent when it comes to parental advice.

They may hear it is bad for them, but in thier minds, they usually think something along the lines of: Well, they SAY it's bad for me, but if they do it, it must not be!

This applies to drugs, alcohol, and smoking. A parent who activly does it in front of a child is going to have one hell of a rough time telling that kid it's bad. Especially the younger the child is. They idolize thier parents (in most cases), and seeing a parent do something so 'cool' as to smoke, or drink, only makes them want to do it more.

Parents today have a responsibility. Unfortunatly, many of them don't care, or realize what they show children when they do what they tell them not to do.

At least at school, all that is gone. They don't see teachers smoking a joint, or a ciggerette. They don't see them doing a double shot before dinner. They don't see the mixed drinks going into the dinner drink. At least teachers have rules they have to abide by when teaching a child.

What rules do parents have? Basically, don't fuck up, don't beat em, and don't neglect em.

It says nothing anywhere that you can't have a drink with dinner when kids are presant. It says nothing of smoking a ciggerette in front of the kids. My mother is a GREAT example of that. My 5 year old is allergic to smoke. She would go spend the weekend with my mother, or my father (they are divorced, but live in the same area), and she would always come back sick. So, I finally talk to her doctor about it. Turns out, all the smoking she is around down there is getting her sick. I tell my dad and step mom, and they don't smoke around her now. They go outside to do it. My mother's responce? That's not what it is, and I don't see her sick at all, so it can't possibly be my smoking, so I am still going to doit around her.


My daughter knows she is allergic to it. She tells people who are around her smoking. She asks them to please put out the ciggerette because she is allergic and it makes her sick. Then, she lectures them about how bad it is for them. Yeah, I have gotten some dirty looks from other parents, but 10 to 1 odds say my daughter is alot less likely to smoke then one of thier kids. No, that's no going to nessicerily be true in the long run, but for now, I like to think it is.

Point blank, kids see what parents do in thier 'off' time. Between a teacher, and a parent, the parent is going to make the longer lasting impression. It IS up to the parent to stop behaviour that promotes illegal activity. But how often DO they stop it?They can punish the kids till they are blue in the face, but if they keep right on doing something, it's only going to make a child rebellious, and resentful, and want to do it, all that much more.


So, to the parents who think this action by the school is completly stupid, and wrong, look at how some of your childrens friends are raised. What they see, as opposed to what actions they take. To those who have teen age children, do they smoke? Do they drink? Do they experiment with drugs yet? How about thier friends? Look at it as what they might have seen growing up. parents don't always realize just how much a child sees and understands.

A child knows alot more about a parent then they think they do. My step mother has always smoked pot, for instance. My brother and I have known since we were in grade school. She never realized we knew until I was around 12, and showed her 'stash' to my friends. She freaked out. Well, you know what, in my experiance, I had a step mother who was a drug addict, and who was an abusive drunk. In my case, it made me not want to ever do it all that much more. I hae never tried any of the so-called recreational drugs. Not so much as a hit from a joint.

I may sound like I am preaching, but honestly, you can't blame one over the other. It isn't the teachers fault the student was trying to be cool. It may not have even been the parents fault. But it happened. It needs to be corrected, and since it was the teacher who found it, the teacher corrected it.

I would be more mad had the teacher laughed it off as a joke, because that would have encoureged the behaviour, not tried to repress it. Does that make sense?

And better yet, did I ramble on long enough?

 

[InSaNe]

Okay I have to bow down tottaly blew my line of reasoning out of the water with that one....." I AM NOT WORTHY I AM NOT WORTHY"

 

[Gilly Bean]

Okay I have to bow down tottaly blew my line of reasoning out of the water with that one....." I AM NOT WORTHY I AM NOT WORTHY"

-rofl-

Did you even have time to READ it? -grins-

 

[InSaNe]

actually I read it then started to type a reply but all my reasonings where gone lol

 

[miles]

GB

Would you be saying that same thing, were it your daughter who was hanging out with this child, and thinking it was cool and 'right' to drink at such a young impressionable age?

Yes, I would be saying that because they know each other through extracurric. activities. She also has enough brains to recognize the idiocy of the school.

The issue isn't whether it's cool or right for a 14 year old to drink or smoke. It's whether or not the punishment fits the non-crime and the school system's lack of common sense.

 

[Tabby432]

This child may have been doing it innocently, but the overall action shows her friends that it's cool, and tells her that she can be made cool through the use of alcohol. Getting suspended may have been a bit harsh, but I am willing to bet it served the purpose of telling her it isn't cool to drink, or pretend to drink. It may just give her some more pause before she does try it.

Since when isn't it cool to be suspended?

 

[InSaNe]

LOL I never thought about that there is like a hidden taboo around the kid that gets suspended I was one of those kids you just had to play it cool like you wheren't gonna get your ass whooped when ya got home and then BAM Instant cool

 

[Gilly Bean]

Re: GB

Would you be saying that same thing, were it your daughter who was hanging out with this child, and thinking it was cool and 'right' to drink at such a young impressionable age?

Yes, I would be saying that because they know each other through extracurric. activities. She also has enough brains to recognize the idiocy of the school.

The issue isn't whether it's cool or right for a 14 year old to drink or smoke. It's whether or not the punishment fits the non-crime and the school system's lack of common sense.

Ok, but had the teacher instead laughed at the joking, and not stopped it, what would that have shown the children? It would have told them, Hey, it's funny to drink. It's cool. Go ahead, and keep doing it.



I am not saying that the punishment was nessecerily right, but overall as a parent, I would have been more pissed had it been laughed off as a joke.

And to a child who is not a trouble maker, getting suspended IS a big deal, and isn't cool. I was embaressed as all hell when I got so much as a detention. I can't begin to imagine what I would have felt if I had been suspended.


COmmon sense is one thing, but honestly, you are looking at impressionable children, not grownup's who know better.

I think something different should have been done as a punishment, but I agree whole heartedly with the message they wanted to send. It isn't funny, or cool to drink. If a child doesn't see that, then they keep trying, and start experimenting, maybe by sneaking a beer from the fridge. Maybe trying to put some vodka in a drink, just like daddy did after dinner. After all, if a parent can do it, why not the kids?

 

[miles]

I have to ask you guys - how many teenagers have you raised?

 

[Gilly Bean]

None yet, but you know what Miles? 4 years ago, I was one. I know what kids today think, because I was one. I know what I saw in my parents, and my school.

Tell me Miles, how long has it been since you have been one?

People of older generations like to say they were the same then as kids today.

Tell me, Miles, was it easier for you to score drugs in high school, then it was to get alcohol? Because it is now.

Just about any kid can 'score' pot if they want to try it. Ask your daughter straight forward how many friends she knows who claim to have tried pot. In most cases now, it's not what they claim, but what they do.

 

[Tabby432]

Re: Re: GB

Ok, but had the teacher instead laughed at the joking, and not stopped it, what would that have shown the children? It would have told them, Hey, it's funny to drink. It's cool. Go ahead, and keep doing it.

Laughed at the joking? How about the teacher inspects the drink to make sure it's not alocohol and then lets the kids know that it's not appropriate. Period. End of the incident.

And to a child who is not a trouble maker, getting suspended IS a big deal, and isn't cool. I was embaressed as all hell when I got so much as a detention. I can't begin to imagine what I would have felt if I had been suspended.

You obviously weren't a problem in the first place... does it matter how you felt? The one time I was suspended my coolness factor went way up. It didn't matter how I felt about it. What was important was how my friends and peers reacted.

 

[Gilly Bean]

Re: Re: Re: GB

Your coolness factor may have gone up, but that doesn't mean everyone's does. -shrugs-

When I wrote what I did, did I expect people to agree with me? No, but then, not everyone looks at parenting and education as top priorities for kids.



Hell, why not, instead of suspending the kid, give her some real wine, so she can really be cool? Or, while we are at it, help her light up a joint, or a ciggerette?

In essence, if the school had ignored the behaviour, they might as well have done just that.

I may not have raised a teenager yet, but I am not far removed from being one. I know what parents are like from a teenage veiw point. I know I did my share of fucking up in school, or I wouldn't have graduated a year late from an alternitive school.

But, again, kids learn what parents show and teach. So, where's that put your kids, guys? I would love to know that in 10 years, when my daughter is on the brink of being 16, that she will be making the right desicions. No one can garuntee that for me. But I can do my best to make sure it happens. Are all parents out there doing that? I have yet to hear a responce to what parents say, as to what they do.


How bout it guys? You parents out there, specifically ones of teens. Do you tell them not to do what you do? Do they listen? Ever wonder why they might NOT be listening?

 

[Tabby432]

Re: Re: Re: Re: GB

Your coolness factor may have gone up, but that doesn't mean everyone's does. -shrugs-

When I wrote what I did, did I expect people to agree with me? No, but then, not everyone looks at parenting and education as top priorities for kids.

Of course they don't. I hope you're not implying that people who don't agree with you are less effective or caring parents?

Hell, why not, instead of suspending the kid, give her some real wine, so she can really be cool? Or, while we are at it, help her light up a joint, or a ciggerette?

In essence, if the school had ignored the behaviour, they might as well have done just that.

Bullshit.

I may not have raised a teenager yet, but I am not far removed from being one. I know what parents are like from a teenage veiw point. I know I did my share of fucking up in school, or I wouldn't have graduated a year late from an alternitive school.

Same here... except for the year late thing. Your point?

But, again, kids learn what parents show and teach. So, where's that put your kids, guys? I would love to know that in 10 years, when my daughter is on the brink of being 16, that she will be making the right desicions. No one can garuntee that for me. But I can do my best to make sure it happens. Are all parents out there doing that? I have yet to hear a responce to what parents say, as to what they do.

How bout it guys? You parents out there, specifically ones of teens. Do you tell them not to do what you do? Do they listen? Ever wonder why they might NOT be listening?

This thread isn't about parenting skills. It's about zero tolerance. Of course children, for the most part, are going to emulate their parents. What does that have to do with punishing a child for essentially nothing?

 

[Willing and Unsure]

Re: Re: Re: Re: GB

How bout it guys? You parents out there, specifically ones of teens. Do you tell them not to do what you do? Do they listen? Ever wonder why they might NOT be listening?

see... i'm on the same boat here as GB.. i agree with her here mostly because i know how my parents were with me when i was in middle school and high school.. and i'm a few years younger than she is. as of right now, i hate my parents because they didnt really have the time of day for me from around 6th grade till somewhat recently. and that's a long time for a kid to be left to figure things out for themself. the most my parents ever told me about drinking, drugs, and smoking, was dont do it. and yet they never said a word to either of my grandparents that were chain smokers at the time. and i was a 'problem child' but in my own quiet way. i did drugs, i smoked, i was a drunk. and there was no one stopping me from doing any of it. had the school maybe stepped in and said something at some point.. or maybe caught me getting some pot from my friends at school, things might be different now. but no one caught that stuff. and it took me awhile to get clean, all by myself (damn those cravings). so now that i've learned from my experiences, all by myself, i wish that someone had of stepped in somewhere to teach me what i should or shouldnt have done and maybe i wouldnt have so many problems now because of it.

 

[Willing and Unsure]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: GB

This thread isn't about parenting skills. It's about zero tolerance. Of course children, for the most part, are going to emulate their parents. What does that have to do with punishing a child for essentially nothing?

it isnt essentially nothing. the child is promoting alcohol by pretending the grape juice is wine. and with a group of other children at an impressionable age, the others may be so inclined to try it and bring it to school. and to see a drunk teenager is a bad thing to see (trust me.. i've seen plenty of em).