Sex work in stories

[Voboy]

It's been years (decades, in fact) since I went to a strip club, but the dancer was quite up-front about what was allowed and what was not. She very cheerfully told me what I could and could not touch, and then she was off to the races.

I can only assume that the dancers are much more knowledgeable about the local laws (written and unwritten) than the police are.

 

[TheRedChamber]

Prostitution in itself is legal, but 'soliciting' and 'pandering' aka running a brothel aren't. So while what individuals are doing in a house may be legal, they can't hire or arrange for a friend to hang around for safety reasons as that would be illegal.

This is a little misleading. They can't have a friend who is also engaged in prostitution at the same address, there can be a non-prostitute person in the house. The Soho walk-ups had 'maids' who would see a customer in and wait with them until the previous customer had finished and presumably offer an extra level of protection. They couldn't discuss services with the waiting customer for fear of becoming legally 'a pimp'.

(source - research for my current story)

There's lots of talk about 'the Nordic model' which means making it illegal to buy the services of a sex worker but not being illegal to be one, the idea being that it would encourage women out of the industry - but sex workers claim that it would make things more dangerous as a scared client can easily turn into an abusive one, not to mention workers would have less time to size up the customer before having to let them in.

It should be noted that shades of this approach have already been legislated in the 2009 law that makes it illegal to buy sex from people who have been trafficked or exploited. How does a John whether a sex worker is exploited? Not the government's problem - if it is later determined that the worker was exploited, no amount of reasonable steps that the John show they took to ascertain her status can be used as a defense. The government also declines from issuing licenses to non-exploited prostitutes and this taking responsibility for it itself.

While protecting the exploited is a noble goal, I can't help but think that the government should just gone ahead and ban prostitution entirely as it had no desire to legislate around the problems sensibly and this was clearly what it wanted to do.

 

[RoperTrace]

Good point. I guess that the MC in "The Milkmaid's Tale" was just indulging a fetish at first. Was that illegal in and of itself? Of course, she started walking on the wild side when she started taking her clothes off (but if stripping is OK, at what point does she fall into that category?) or when she as masturbating her clients. But she knew that she'd crossed the line at that point, and was relying on her clients' discretion and the payoffs her Uncle Pete was giving the cops to stay out of trouble.




Exactly.



A friend of mine was a stripper in Baltimore, performing in one of the theaters on that city's notorious "Block" near the waterfront. This was in the 1960s. IIRC, she had to wear pasties and a G-string to stay legal. But the pasties had a sort of artificial nipple on them and the G-string was cut to reveal a camel-toe, rather defeating the purpose of the regulations.

We went on a cruise to the Bahamas back on our 15th anniversary. We went to a burlesque show and the native Bahamian women supposedly couldn't be fully topless, but wore pasties in their show. The women from other countries were topless. Our cruise director, who accompanied us told us of this law or restriction for natives of the Bahamas. Seemed a little silly, but the shows were pretty entertaining in spite of that. I remember that they all wore g-strings.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Then there is the question as to what constitutes a sexual act. As you've debated here about who is or is not a sex worker, you also have to look at what activities are legally considered sex. If a dominatrix flogs a client, for example, is that a sex act? It may result in the clients arousal, but rarely in sexual gratification. Yes, the client finds it pleasurable, but technically, how is a flogging different from a vigorous massage? In fact, many pro dommes specialize in orgasm denial. Legally, if she touches his genitals to put them in a cage or other restraining device, she is almost certainly breaking the law, even though the purpose is actually to deny sexual gratification.

This gets further muddied by the fact that the nature of dominatrix services, and the ways in which they're discussed, are shaped by those same laws.

I remember reading the website of a well-known Sydney dungeon a while back. There was a FAQ on whether BDSM was sexual. The gist of their reply was "look, in jurisdictions where it's illegal to do sex for money, pros have to say it's not sexual, but in this state it's legal so we're fine to talk about the sexual aspects!"

There's lots of talk about 'the Nordic model' which means making it illegal to buy the services of a sex worker but not being illegal to be one, the idea being that it would encourage women out of the industry - but sex workers claim that it would make things more dangerous as a scared client can easily turn into an abusive one, not to mention workers would have less time to size up the customer before having to let them in.

Such things can also interfere with people's domestic arrangements - some models I've seen effectively made it illegal for a sex worker to live with her boyfriend, because he'd risk being classified as a pimp.

 

[Bramblethorn]

The issue (for me, anyway) is that something can involve sex but not necessarily be sexy, for erotic story purposes.

Ah, gotcha. There's also that distinction between "sexy for the participants" and "sexy to read about".

I can imagine a story about a sex surrogate being erotic, but something would have to be added to it so the sex wasn't simply a standard, normal part of the daily job. I think that's probably why we don't see more sex therapist erotic stories: when sex becomes part of the normal, daily routine, it's not as erotic.

The "daily routine" aspect could be avoided by telling it from the client's perspective, as a kind of First Time story. But there's still a storytelling challenge there: if you start with "we're going to have ten sessions working through physical intimacy and in session ten we're going to do intercourse if you're comfortable with that", then that removes what's usually the major source of tension in that kind of story, the uncertainty about whether sex will actually happen. So it would still require that added something to maintain interest.

 

[Britva415]

not everyone is attractive enough to work the pole).

Any mouth can find pole to work on.

 

[Britva415]

Is therapy erotic? I think that's the question. There might be ways of making it erotic, but generally speaking I think it's not.

I can understand this, especially if the story takes the sex therapist's point of view.

On the other hand, a story from a client's point of view could be both interesting and erotic, especially if the therapy results in the client experiencing sexual health outside the clinic.

 

[Britva415]

RL therapists are usually working under a code of conduct which bars them from having sex with current or recent clients, so it's not supposed to be erotic.

They were talking specifically about sex therapists.

 

[Britva415]

I think it is also a useful term because it is inclusive of a number of activities. Pro dommes are not prostitutes. Cam girls are not strippers. But they all have issues in common that necessitate a shared descriptor.

Issues?

Or business activities?

Or was that what you meant.

 

[Britva415]

I'm curious about the origin of the term "sex worker" and the history of its use. Did it exist 40 years ago? My sense is that it has gained currency as the forms of media have expanded opportunities to provide sexual gratification in one form or another for money.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_worker

Activist sex workers themselves coined it. Media usage of the term reflects respect for these activists and their agenda.

 

[wallstreetguy]

Some years ago, some researchers polled sex workers around the world, ranging from street walkers to high end escorts. I wish I could remember the name of the report. A very progressive writer and wife, I think. The report was on NPR (I listen because no commercials and it is often not horrible).
They found not one of the 500 women with whom they spoke enjoyed her job. Not one. That was the most surprising finding. They could not find a single Happy Hooker.

 

[HordHolm]

Eeek, re-reading this thread has pushed a couple more awkward activities/'jobs' into the debate:

The artist's model - if a model poses nude for an artist/art class do we classify this as sex work? The work of art might be said to be not painted for the purpose of arousal, but do we take the word of the artist? If I paint my neighbour's wife nude with the intention of displaying the painting can we accept my word that I have no intention of the work being arousing? And if it does arouse (even if it only aroused me as the painter as I painted it), and my neighbour's wife has received payment from me for the work, is she now a sex worker?

The surrogate mother - 1) if a woman agrees to become impregnated for the purpose of then giving the baby to another to raise and, 2) if the impregnation is by the 'traditional' manner, and 3) if the surrogate is paid, is this sex work? Obviously the aim is procreation, but the method involves sex and payment.

 

[SimonDoom]

Eeek, re-reading this thread has pushed a couple more awkward activities/'jobs' into the debate:

The artist's model - if a model poses nude for an artist/art class do we classify this as sex work? The work of art might be said to be not painted for the purpose of arousal, but do we take the word of the artist? If I paint my neighbour's wife nude with the intention of displaying the painting can we accept my word that I have no intention of the work being arousing? And if it does arouse (even if it only aroused me as the painter as I painted it), and my neighbour's wife has received payment from me for the work, is she now a sex worker?

The surrogate mother - 1) if a woman agrees to become impregnated for the purpose of then giving the baby to another to raise and, 2) if the impregnation is by the 'traditional' manner, and 3) if the surrogate is paid, is this sex work? Obviously the aim is procreation, but the method involves sex and payment.

I think this thread is beginning to demonstrate one of my long-held, firm beliefs that debates over definitions are not, except in specific contexts, meaningful. One can call this or that "sex work," but it doesn't change the nature of what it is. We define and categorize things because doing so is useful in a particular context. It doesn't mean anything in the abstract.

In the context of this thread, which concerns erotic stories, both surrogacy and art modeling can be "sex work," because they can both be for pay and they can both result in arousal and sexual titillation in a story. But I wouldn't ordinarily regard art modeling as sex work because that's not its primary purpose or nature. The fact that some might find it arousing isn't enough to bring it under the ambit of sex work. If that were true, then anything could be sex work, because for nearly every activity somebody, somewhere is going to find it arousing.

 

[lc69hunter]

I "dated" a stripper back in my younger days. I can say that in MY personal experience (not painting everyone with the same brush), they were all seriously damaged.
Molested, Raped, Mental Illnesses, Unfaithful, Addicted to drugs, etc, etc.

I'm sure that there are some strippers and sex workers that are lovely people, I just didn't meet any in my travels and younger days.

I AM currently working on a story that involves that particular area of employment.

During my time in the Marine Corps, I generally worked a second job as a bouncer/security in various strip clubs. Yes, there were those women you described, but there were also quite a few exactly the opposite, knowing exactly what they were doing, doing it well and socking away the money and/or paying for school. So I reject the comment that they were all seriously damaged. And, I dated a few, in fact, took one to the Marine Corps Ball one year. I was definitely the source of envy to a lot of men

 

[Kumquatqueen]

Some years ago, some researchers polled sex workers around the world, ranging from street walkers to high end escorts. ...
They found not one of the 500 women with whom they spoke enjoyed her job. Not one. That was the most surprising finding. They could not find a single Happy Hooker.

Finding unbiased research on sex work is like pulling hen's teeth. The Happy Hooker is rare, for sure. The not-too-dissatisfied hooker thinking it's slightly better than being a McWorker, abused retail slave, or fruit picker? Depending on local demographics and alternatives, there may be a bundle of them. Whether they're any happier or unhappier than vulnerable min-wage workers or the unemployed is a very complex question (and will have different answers in different places).

I used to chat regularly to a whore my age at Waterloo station. She wasn't happy, but given she was also a heroin addict reliant for her housing on an abusive boyfriend/pump, and unemployable if she didn't get her regular fix (which required chunks of money she could only get illegally), I'd argue it wasn't the sex so much that was making her unhappy as everything else in her life.

In contrast, in the Middle East, as the UAE was starting to transform into the glitzy tackiness it is today, there were a number of prostitutes who would hang out in the high-class hotel bars (alcohol was only legal in hotels, so my family and other expats would visit them regularly for a meal). Almost all Russian/ex-Soviet, and doing quite well because they were the ones smart enough to have both learned some English and not to run the risks of a highly-earning night with a rich local, which might be fine but might also end up with life-changing injuries or death.

The English-speakers apparently were reliably OK as clients. The women I'd end up chatting to generally had a degree and were saving up to move to a city, or saving for a first degree, but basically getting away from small-town ex-USSR and traditional men and no jobs. As one stunning blonde put it, "same shit, no money."

 

[Seadog777]

During my time in the Marine Corps, I generally worked a second job as a bouncer/security in various strip clubs. Yes, there were those women you described, but there were also quite a few exactly the opposite, knowing exactly what they were doing, doing it well and socking away the money and/or paying for school. So I reject the comment that they were all seriously damaged. And, I dated a few, in fact, took one to the Marine Corps Ball one year. I was definitely the source of envy to a lot of men

I don't give a flying figs fuck what you "reject"

Learn to read scooter.

I said, "in MY personal experience (not painting everyone with the same brush)", and I also said, "I'm sure that there are some strippers and sex workers that are lovely people, I just didn't meet any in my travels and younger days."

 

[HordHolm]

I think this thread is beginning to demonstrate one of my long-held, firm beliefs that debates over definitions are not, except in specific contexts, meaningful. One can call this or that "sex work," but it doesn't change the nature of what it is. We define and categorize things because doing so is useful in a particular context. It doesn't mean anything in the abstract.

In the context of this thread, which concerns erotic stories, both surrogacy and art modeling can be "sex work," because they can both be for pay and they can both result in arousal and sexual titillation in a story. But I wouldn't ordinarily regard art modeling as sex work because that's not its primary purpose or nature. The fact that some might find it arousing isn't enough to bring it under the ambit of sex work. If that were true, then anything could be sex work, because for nearly every activity somebody, somewhere is going to find it arousing.

It does rather remind me of a (possibly apocryphal) story I heard twenty-odd years ago:

The western isles of Scotland are a deeply religious place (someone I know lived there in the 90s and he told me that on Sunday they lock the swings in the playground and on the Isle of Lewis they demonstrated against the introduction of a Sunday flight to the mainland). Anyway, one winter the weather on one of the islands was particularly severe, with an inlet being completely frozen over. The weather was so bad the local road was impassable, and this cut the village off from the kirk. However, one smart chap (let's call him Dougal) had a pair of skates, which he strapped on and then he skated over the frozen inlet and was thus the only member of the congregation present for Sunday service.

The next week comes and the weather has improved enough that the full congregation (including the church Elders, serious Presbyterians all) are present. At the end of Sunday service the Elders pull Dougal to one side and the conversation proceeds thusly...

Elders: Aye, well now Dougal, that was some fine determination you showed skating to kirk last Sunday. But we've a question for ye...

Dougal: Aye?

Elders: Did ye enjoy it?

 

[Bramblethorn]

They were talking specifically about sex therapists.

Not sure that makes a difference - AFAIK sex therapists are generally subject to those codes of ethics too. (The surrogate and the therapist are not the same person, at least in the setups I'm aware of.)

Issues?

Or business activities?

There are a bunch of common issues which are relevant across many different types of sex work.

For instance, social stigma - it can often be difficult for people who've done sex work to get into other careers, unless they conceal their history, which can cause its own problems. (See e.g. the case of Kim Hollingsworth - AFAIK sex work was legal at the time she was doing it.) Sex workers are often refused financial services, and often subject to legal restrictions beyond what might be applied to other professions. The specifics of those can vary from one area of SW to another, but there's enough in common that "sex workers' rights" can be a useful basis for organisation.

(Also that it's not uncommon for people to work in more than one area of SW, e.g. escorts who also do porn movies.)

 

[Bramblethorn]

Some years ago, some researchers polled sex workers around the world, ranging from street walkers to high end escorts.

Do you recall whether the scope was sex work broadly defined (as we've been discussing it here, including e.g. stripping, cam shows, etc.) or only "full service" (intercourse?)

I wish I could remember the name of the report. A very progressive writer and wife, I think. The report was on NPR (I listen because no commercials and it is often not horrible).
They found not one of the 500 women with whom they spoke enjoyed her job. Not one. That was the most surprising finding. They could not find a single Happy Hooker.

I am curious as to how many men they spoke with - sex work is not by any means an exclusively female field!

If you do recall more about the report I'd be interested to see it. I wasn't able to find the one you mention, but I did come across some other research in a similar vein: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2021.586235/full

This one was a survey of Berlin university students. 227 identified themselves as sex workers (89 female, 61 male, 77 not stated). The most relevant part to this discussion:

Most students that offer sexual intercourse stated that the feelings after the intercourse depend on the client (18.5%, n = 42). Feeling good after the intercourse was reported by 3.5% (n = 8). A total of 6.2% (n = 14) reported that the intercourse does not influence their feelings and 1.3% (n = 3) stated not feeling good after it. Feeling something else was reported by 2.6% (n = 6); mentioned were inter alia shame or pride. With a total of 10.6% (n = 24), the students stated not to offer sexual intercourse (e.g., telephone sex); 57.3% (n = 130) did not answer this question.

The high levels of "did not answer", and the ambiguity of some of those answer categories, make me reluctant to over-interpret those numbers. I would not want to lean very heavily on this work, but it does seem like at least some enjoyed the sex and quite a few didn't mind it.

It would be interesting to see a study that asked the same kind of job-satisfaction questions both of sex workers and of people in other occupations, but I don't know whether anybody's tried that.

Finding unbiased research on sex work is like pulling hen's teeth.

That, and even for the mythical perfectly unbiased researcher, that kind of research is it's hard to do well. Challenges of defining the target population, finding people to survey, wording questions clearly and persuading people to talk about such sensitive topics honestly, that takes a great deal of expertise.

 

[wallstreetguy]

Do you recall whether the scope was sex work broadly defined (as we've been discussing it here, including e.g. stripping, cam shows, etc.) or only "full service" (intercourse?)



I am curious as to how many men they spoke with - sex work is not by any means an exclusively female field!

If you do recall more about the report I'd be interested to see it. I wasn't able to find the one you mention, but I did come across some other research in a similar vein: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2021.586235/full

This one was a survey of Berlin university students. 227 identified themselves as sex workers (89 female, 61 male, 77 not stated). The most relevant part to this discussion:



The high levels of "did not answer", and the ambiguity of some of those answer categories, make me reluctant to over-interpret those numbers. I would not want to lean very heavily on this work, but it does seem like at least some enjoyed the sex and quite a few didn't mind it.

It would be interesting to see a study that asked the same kind of job-satisfaction questions both of sex workers and of people in other occupations, but I don't know whether anybody's tried that.



That, and even for the mythical perfectly unbiased researcher, that kind of research is it's hard to do well. Challenges of defining the target population, finding people to survey, wording questions clearly and persuading people to talk about such sensitive topics honestly, that takes a great deal of expertise.

Cannot recall the exacts on the study. It was a real scientific study, not just some students asking questions. The shocking part was the 100% hate their jobs rate that I remember. I do not know if female only.

 

[Britva415]

Not sure that makes a difference - AFAIK sex therapists are generally subject to those codes of ethics too. (The surrogate and the therapist are not the same person, at least in the setups I'm aware of.)

Oh, good point, I assumed they meant the surrogate. Because of context, but who can tell.

 

[nice90sguy]

"Sex Work" and "Street Prostitution" are not synonymous.

Exactually.
And don't get me started on all the Innernet variants.
Women will give sexual gratification for money in all kinds of situations, most of which are far from degrading, but empowering. For me the purest sex work is findom, where the transactional element is stripped to its essence.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I think the 'student' part of the group definitely puts them in a different light than surveying sex workers with other backgrounds/motivations. I can imagine that, for students, there could be a strong aspect of fun, choosing this work; living a dirty fantasy for a while. I wonder how much of a say these students have in whom they have to deal with.
I shouldn't draw my own picture here, but I can imagine that, for this particular group, it's most often a well-paid couple of hours a week, and that a significant part of the money is spend on luxury-goods and partying. And knowing that it's only a temporary thing--that, after your study, you can probably close that book and move on with (hopefully) a well-paid job--could also affect the outcome of any interview.

The study does mention motivations. "Higher income" was the most common, reported as important by 35.7% of participants. (Given the high rates of non-answer on some of the other questions, I suspect that this one might be close to 100% of those who answered the question, but there's not enough information given to say for sure.)

The others shown are "financial problems" (20.3% - I'd guess a large overlap with those who ticked "higher income"), 18.9% "adventure", 14.1% "fun", and 9.7% "other motivation"; the examples mentioned for the latter are "self-affirmation, curiosity, and flexible working hours".

(That last is something I've seen mentioned by a lot of sex workers, BTW - the flexibility of the hours and relatively high pay per hour working make it attractive to people who may be only able to work a few hours a week for reasons of study, childcare, disability, etc. etc.)

 

[MelissaBaby]

Issues?

Or business activities?

Or was that what you meant.

I was referring to issues that are common across the range of activities that constitute sex work. Bramblethorn has already covered much of the territory I had in mind.

 

[RoperTrace]

The thread is about all different shades of sex work and how we as writers portray it. As far as stories go, conflict and angst can contribute, as can a rose tinted view of sex work, depends on the story to be told.

Otherwise, Best Little Whorehouse in Texas wouldn't have been a hit play or movie.