Sex work in stories

[Winter_Fare]

That's a reductionist argument. You're defining sex work by its most problematic elements.

"Sex Work" and "Street Prostitution" are not synonymous.

I don't think sex work has easy boundaries to define, and I don't question that it suits some people in some situations, but it leaves others vulnerable. In an ideal world, noone would judge other people for the choices they make but sadly this isn't an ideal world and its criminality is isolating.

To illustrate with more nuance, Switzerland has had success in decriminalising it and women have benefited. Germany tried to do that and failed women on an industrial scale, because it didn't acknowledge the innate vulnerability and power imbalance between traffickers and the trafficked.

 

[jehoram]

It's interesting to me that not many stories are about sex therapists. They are not hookers, strippers, or escorts, but people with training in psychology who use that training to guide their clients to better understanding of their sexual nature.

The only story I can think of off-hand is one that I edited for Athalia called "The Pond." Here's the url, if you're interested:

https://www.literotica.com/s/the-pond-7

I just re-read the story and found that the character was a real free spirit in college, although the sexual activity was only implied and not explicit. But she found a way to accommodate that libido in her professional life, and find a way to coax that urge in the people she made love with, the MC and another man she was counseling.

I guess that's not much different from the "Happy Hooker" fantasy in many stories.

The MC in my own story "The Milkmaid's Tale" could be called a sex worker. She sold breast milk straight from the tap, so to speak, for men and women who had that fetish. But except for a little masturbation with her clients for a little extra money, she didn't fuck them. And she screened her clients carefully, and told them that she had an uncle in the Mafia who could step in as her protector if she felt a client was getting out of hand.

I made it clear that she was only in it for the money, and when she became the "madam" to a string of lactating women, those women were also in it for the money, except for one who became a lover to herself and her husband once she retired. From the story: "Otherwise, they might have gone into prostitution and had to deal with pimps and johns, and risk getting busted. I ran a clean, tight ship. I learned something in those years, that women can't count on men for that kind of support."

Again, the url:
https://www.literotica.com/s/the-milkmaids-tale

 

[TheRedChamber]

I establish a world in which this is the norm and there's no "gestalting" about it.

Im sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by this word in this context.

I was surprised at the number of comments opposed to wives and girlfriends stripping in front of strangers, simply to hone their skills for their partner. There was no sex involved, just titillation.

I'm learning that the 'mine, and mine only' crowd tend to object to nearly anything. The trope of sex worker being more skilled in their particular area is another facet of this conversation. I've certainly played with it myself, but I'm also batting around stories about sex workers who have problems with intimate sex because it's become a process for them.

 

[KeithD]

"Gestalting" comes from having lived in Germany, where I encountered it as an expression of hyperventilating over something/some issue.

 

[TheRedChamber]

"I find the term 'sex worker' to be amusing. It gives the impression that I was on par with people in an auto assembly plant or those running a freight train."...Usually Nora calls herself a hooker, 'working girl,' prostitute...She definitely refers to it as a "job" and sometimes a "business."

I think the whole point behind its adoption is precisely that it's a normalizing term. One that stresses it's just a job and as such should be subject to the same employment laws and protections any other profession.

The language around it is interesting 'working girl' kind of repeats the idea above only not really, but the (UK only?) term 'on the game' gives completely the opposite idea.

Obviously sex work covers a wide range of different jobs which are by no means the same in their advantages and disadvantages

 

[TheRedChamber]

The OnlyFans paradigm seems to really be changing things, in the sense that a woman can have almost total control over the production and delivery process, eliminating the need to work for seedy porn production companies or sketchy photographers. The online escorting industry, too, eliminates the need to ork with pimps. That's not to or exploitative side of the industry doesn't exist, but it's far more plausible now than before to present a woman's exploration of sex work as a positive and affirming experience, and I find it an interesting and erotic area to explore.

While this is hopefully largely true it's worth noting the Amouranth story that broke about a month ago where one of the largest Twitch/OnlyFans content creator alleged serious controlling abuse on the part of boyfriend. Reading what she says, he seems basically to have been her pimp. As you note, exploitation is still a thing.

 

[TheRedChamber]

"Gestalting" comes from having lived in Germany, where I encountered it as an expression of hyperventilating over something/some issue.

I see. I've seen it used as a more High-faluting concept and was trying to wrap my brain around it.

 

[SimonDoom]

It's interesting to me that not many stories are about sex therapists. They are not hookers, strippers, or escorts, but people with training in psychology who use that training to guide their clients to better understanding of their sexual nature.

Is therapy erotic? I think that's the question. There might be ways of making it erotic, but generally speaking I think it's not.

 

[MelissaBaby]

I don't think sex work has easy boundaries to define, and I don't question that it suits some people in some situations, but it leaves others vulnerable. In an ideal world, noone would judge other people for the choices they make but sadly this isn't an ideal world and its criminality is isolating.

To illustrate with more nuance, Switzerland has had success in decriminalising it and women have benefited. Germany tried to do that and failed women on an industrial scale, because it didn't acknowledge the innate vulnerability and power imbalance between traffickers and the trafficked.

Not to beat a dead horse, but sex work is not necessarily criminalized. Camming, stripping, making porn, etc., are all legal to various degrees in many jurisdictions.

 

[MelissaBaby]

I think the whole point behind its adoption is precisely that it's a normalizing term. One that stresses it's just a job and as such should be subject to the same employment laws and protections any other profession.

The language around it is interesting 'working girl' kind of repeats the idea above only not really, but the (UK only?) term 'on the game' gives completely the opposite idea.

Obviously sex work covers a wide range of different jobs which are by no means the same in their advantages and disadvantages

I think it is also a useful term because it is inclusive of a number of activities. Pro dommes are not prostitutes. Cam girls are not strippers. But they all have issues in common that necessitate a shared descriptor.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Is therapy erotic? I think that's the question. There might be ways of making it erotic, but generally speaking I think it's not.

RL therapists are usually working under a code of conduct which bars them from having sex with current or recent clients, so it's not supposed to be erotic.

But there are modes of sex therapy which involve professional sex surrogates - I think the usual situation is where somebody is inexperienced and lacking in confidence, and the surrogate helps them practice for future partners. That can go anywhere from "how to kiss" to full intercourse. See e.g. https://www.goodvibesclinic.com.au/sex-surrogacy or https://www.healthline.com/health/healthy-sex/sex-surrogate#sex-surrogates-and-sex-work for examples.

(I am not sold on the distinction the second one tries to draw between surrogacy and sex work, though it's not an area I know much about and I'm open to argument.)

Not sure if jehoram was talking about surrogacy or just more conventional modes of therapy with the potential to turn unprofessional.

 

[jsmiam]

Here’s a thought. If we got paid for our writing, would we be sex workers?

We’re certainly at the very least part of the sex industry, even if we personally aren’t the sex workers. There’s an ecosystem of webcam girls (and guy?) that is part of our world.

Yes, we “work” for free. And we can protect our anonymity so nobody knows. But we’re not that far from it ourselves.

And there’s nothing wrong with any of it. (But I’m still not telling anyone.)

 

[SimonDoom]

Here’s a thought. If we got paid for our writing, would we be sex workers?

We’re certainly at the very least part of the sex industry, even if we personally aren’t the sex workers. There’s an ecosystem of webcam girls (and guy?) that is part of our world.

Yes, we “work” for free. And we can protect our anonymity so nobody knows. But we’re not that far from it ourselves.

And there’s nothing wrong with any of it. (But I’m still not telling anyone.)

I would analogize an author of an erotic story to the producer or director of a porn video. Is such a person a sex worker? I'm not sure. I think a performer is, if the term is defined inclusively, but I'm not sure a mere director counts. And if a porn video director isn't, then I don't think an author is.

 

[TheRedChamber]

I would analogize an author of an erotic story to the producer or director of a porn video. Is such a person a sex worker? I'm not sure. I think a performer is, if the term is defined inclusively, but I'm not sure a mere director counts. And if a porn video director isn't, then I don't think an author is.

A well reasoned argument and yet how would you feel about someone working on a Chat-line. Never called one so I don't know how scripted it is but still...What about if I make and audio recording of my own story?

 

[SimonDoom]

A well reasoned argument and yet how would you feel about someone working on a Chat-line. Never called one so I don't know how scripted it is but still...What about if I make and audio recording of my own story?

It may be splitting hairs, but that's OK because we do a lot of that here in this forum. If you are reading, then you are a performer. Someone on a chat line is definitely a performer. Performance, IMO, crosses the line into sex work.
I'm not sure what all the distinctions really mean, however. The law on this subject is strange. Prostitution is still generally criminalized in most of the United States. But if you put two people in front of a camera and say that you are paying the woman as an "actress" as opposed to paying her for the "sex" then it's legal. The law makes strange distinctions.

 

[TheRedChamber]

It may be splitting hairs, but that's OK because we do a lot of that here in this forum. If you are reading, then you are a performer. Someone on a chat line is definitely a performer. Performance, IMO, crosses the line into sex work.
I'm not sure what all the distinctions really mean, however. The law on this subject is strange. Prostitution is still generally criminalized in most of the United States. But if you put two people in front of a camera and say that you are paying the woman as an "actress" as opposed to paying her for the "sex" then it's legal. The law makes strange distinctions.

Yes, I'm messing around here and not that I think it matters, but why is performance the key here. Suppose someone pays you to write a story, you do so and they pleasure themselves to it. How is that different from someone calling you up and talking you through the same process for the same process.

The porn/prostitution laws are weird as you say in the US.

 

[SimonDoom]

RL therapists are usually working under a code of conduct which bars them from having sex with current or recent clients, so it's not supposed to be erotic.

But there are modes of sex therapy which involve professional sex surrogates - I think the usual situation is where somebody is inexperienced and lacking in confidence, and the surrogate helps them practice for future partners. That can go anywhere from "how to kiss" to full intercourse. See e.g. https://www.goodvibesclinic.com.au/sex-surrogacy or https://www.healthline.com/health/healthy-sex/sex-surrogate#sex-surrogates-and-sex-work for examples.

(I am not sold on the distinction the second one tries to draw between surrogacy and sex work, though it's not an area I know much about and I'm open to argument.)

Not sure if jehoram was talking about surrogacy or just more conventional modes of therapy with the potential to turn unprofessional.

The issue (for me, anyway) is that something can involve sex but not necessarily be sexy, for erotic story purposes.

I analogize it to nudity. There's nothing especially erotic about a long-time nudist being nude at a nudist resort. But someone walking nude down a public street -- that's erotic.

I can imagine a story about a sex surrogate being erotic, but something would have to be added to it so the sex wasn't simply a standard, normal part of the daily job. I think that's probably why we don't see more sex therapist erotic stories: when sex becomes part of the normal, daily routine, it's not as erotic.

 

[SimonDoom]

It may be splitting hairs, but that's OK because we do a lot of that here in this forum. If you are reading, then you are a performer. Someone on a chat line is definitely a performer. Performance, IMO, crosses the line into sex work.
I'm not sure what all the distinctions really mean, however. The law on this subject is strange. Prostitution is still generally criminalized in most of the United States. But if you put two people in front of a camera and say that you are paying the woman as an "actress" as opposed to paying her for the "sex" then it's legal. The law makes strange distinctions.

From a logical/ethical perspective, the distinctions may seem silly. Legally, though, it makes sense, at least in the US, where on the one hand we have more robust freedom of speech protections than many countries, but we also have stricter laws regarding some conduct that is deemed "immoral," like prostitution. A visual performance is more likely to be deemed "obscene" than a text is.

I'm curious about the origin of the term "sex worker" and the history of its use. Did it exist 40 years ago? My sense is that it has gained currency as the forms of media have expanded opportunities to provide sexual gratification in one form or another for money.

 

[Djmac1031]

I'm curious about the origin of the term "sex worker" and the history of its use. Did it exist 40 years ago? My sense is that it has gained currency as the forms of media have expanded opportunities to provide sexual gratification in one form or another for money.

From my VERY limited understanding, "sex worker" is a term that's sprung up and been embraced by those in the industry as an effort to do away with the negative stigma attached to those who engage in it and do away with terms like "prostitute" or "hooker" or "porn star," which tend to have negative connotations attached to them.

It's an attempt to garner more respect to an industry that is generally treated with distain and judgment by society.

Sex workers are workers, and whether one agrees or disagrees with the services they provide, they deserve to be recognized as people just like the test of us, not stereotyped and judged harshly for their choices.

 

[oggbashan]

From Wikipedia:

The term "sex worker" was coined in 1978 by sex worker activist Carol Leigh. Its use became popularized after publication of the anthology, Sex Work: Writings By Women In The Sex Industry in 1987, edited by Frédérique Delacoste and Priscilla Alexander. The term "sex worker" has since spread into much wider use, including in academic publications, by NGOs and labor unions, and by governmental and intergovernmental agencies, such as the World Health Organization. The term is listed in the Oxford English Dictionary and Merriam-Webster's Dictionary.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Ambiguity in the laws is deliberate. It allows enforcement to be selective, at times, capricious. For example, in most places, it is against the law to exchange sex for monetary gain. But, that is generally only enforced when the transaction involves a direct payment of cash. Logically, a person paying someone's rent, or lavishing them with expensive gifts with the understanding that they will receive sexual favors in return is the same as someone making a direct payment, but is virtually never prosecuted.

Then there is the question as to what constitutes a sexual act. As you've debated here about who is or is not a sex worker, you also have to look at what activities are legally considered sex. If a dominatrix flogs a client, for example, is that a sex act? It may result in the clients arousal, but rarely in sexual gratification. Yes, the client finds it pleasurable, but technically, how is a flogging different from a vigorous massage? In fact, many pro dommes specialize in orgasm denial. Legally, if she touches his genitals to put them in a cage or other restraining device, she is almost certainly breaking the law, even though the purpose is actually to deny sexual gratification.

Again, these laws are not meant to be consistent, they are purposefully vague so that they may be arbitrarily enforced.

In stripping, there is an insane jig saw puzzle of what is allowed where. In some places, no contact is allowed, and the dancer must maintain a certain distance from the customer. Various degrees of contact are allowed elsewhere. Some places allow full nudity, some allow it only after certain hours, some require bottoms but not tops, some require nipples to be covered.

And then there is the question of "extras." Obviously, fucking a client, giving them a blowjob or a handie, constitutes sexual activity. But it's more complicated that that. I'll let Roxanne explain in a scene from The Gold Dollar Girls:

"What do you consider an extra? Have you ever let one of your regulars put his hand in his pants and jerk off?"

Misty hesitated, then said, "Yeah, a few times."

"That's an extra. If you tell him he's a bad boy and needs a spanking, that's an extra. If you know that he will give you a bigger tip if you call him Daddy, that's an extra. Anything more than you dancing and him watching is an extra. Everybody sets their own line. Including the management, and including the law. You either learn the game or get out of it."

 

[yowser]

From Wikipedia:

The term "sex worker" was coined in 1978 by sex worker activist Carol Leigh. Its use became popularized after publication of the anthology, Sex Work: Writings By Women In The Sex Industry in 1987, edited by Frédérique Delacoste and Priscilla Alexander. The term "sex worker" has since spread into much wider use, including in academic publications, by NGOs and labor unions, and by governmental and intergovernmental agencies, such as the World Health Organization. The term is listed in the Oxford English Dictionary and Merriam-Webster's Dictionary.

Leigh died just a few weeks ago. Her main point was that a lot of sexual work was WORK and needed to be considered as such. Interesting person, here's her obit.

 

[jehoram]

Not sure if jehoram was talking about surrogacy or just more conventional modes of therapy with the potential to turn unprofessional.

You'd have to ask Athalia what she had in mind when she wrote the story, but I would guess that the character was what we'd call a "sexual surrogate" since it was clear that she'd had some sort of psychological training.

 

[jehoram]

Then there is the question, as to what constitutes a sexual act. As you've debated here about who is or is not a sex worker, you also have to look at what activities are legally considered sex. If a dominatrix flogs a client, for example, is that a sex act? It may result in the clients arousal, but rarely in sexual gratification.

Good point. I guess that the MC in "The Milkmaid's Tale" was just indulging a fetish at first. Was that illegal in and of itself? Of course, she started walking on the wild side when she started taking her clothes off (but if stripping is OK, at what point does she fall into that category?) or when she as masturbating her clients. But she knew that she'd crossed the line at that point, and was relying on her clients' discretion and the payoffs her Uncle Pete was giving the cops to stay out of trouble.

Again, these laws are not meant to be consistent, they are purposefully vague so that they may be arbitrarily enforced.

Exactly.

In stripping, there is an insane jig saw puzzle of what is allowed where. In some places, no contact is allowed, and the dancer must maintain a certain distance from the customer. Various degrees of contact are allowed elsewhere. Some places allow full nudity, some allow it only after certain hours, some require bottoms but not tops, some require nipples to be covered.

A friend of mine was a stripper in Baltimore, performing in one of the theaters on that city's notorious "Block" near the waterfront. This was in the 1960s. IIRC, she had to wear pasties and a G-string to stay legal. But the pasties had a sort of artificial nipple on them and the G-string was cut to reveal a camel-toe, rather defeating the purpose of the regulations.

And then there is the question of "extras." Obviously, fucking a client, giving them a blowjob or a handie, constitutes sexual activity. But it's more complicated that that. I'll let Roxanne explain in a scene from The Gold Dollar Girls:

 

[Kumquatqueen]

Apparently in San Francisco in the 60s and 70s there were 'topless and bottomless bars' - because city law didn't permit full nudity.

In the UK there are strip clubs which officially don't offer sex, though some may encourage more off-site deals than others. Prostitution in itself is legal, but 'soliciting' and 'pandering' aka running a brothel aren't. So while what individuals are doing in a house may be legal, they can't hire or arrange for a friend to hang around for safety reasons as that would be illegal.

There's lots of talk about 'the Nordic model' which means making it illegal to buy the services of a sex worker but not being illegal to be one, the idea being that it would encourage women out of the industry - but sex workers claim that it would make things more dangerous as a scared client can easily turn into an abusive one, not to mention workers would have less time to size up the customer before having to let them in.

The last Labour government (and May's) kept trying to ban 'extreme pornography' which mostly failed because banning the internet wasn't feasible, but also it would have introduced thoughtcrime - certain injuries would be OK if acquired consensually, but only if you weren't getting off from it. So you can do amateur boxing and get someone to punch you, but if you did the same in a fetish club it would have broken the law if it had been passed. Also images of the Crucifixion would have become illegal, which might have been entertaining but clearly Government didn't want to go there!

There was much discussion as to whether Government consultation should have to involve viewing people clearly consensually acquiring 'more than trifling' injuries, or whether someone's bruised backside would have to become an exhibit in a court case...