Political Incorrectness to the Extreme

[Selena_Kitt]

If I wanted to pick a fight with the left at this point, in most places I would say the whole thing is a good demonstration of why a voucher system would be superior, and would avoid the problems inherent in "one-size-fits-all" public schools. But that won't work here - AH is admirably open-minded on that issue!

NOT saying a word. :x
NOT a word.
NOT even one.

*stuffing mouth full of Oreos instead*

 

[R. Richard]

Not too long ago I was in a meeting where a black man was very upset about a story his kid had read. He got up and was doing a number about "Little Black Sambo" being racist. I got up and told him he was an idot. "Little Black Sambo" was about Caucasian people who live in the South of India and are as dark as any African. I then asked him, "Who is being racist now!"

 

[BlackShanglan]

If the child has picked the role him or herself, it seems to me that the child sees no negative connotation in it. Why plant the seed, and why spoil innocent fun if it could very well remain quite innocent? If the other children see something negative in the role and make a fuss of it, then be ready to let the child who has chosen the role be something else instead - if that's what the child wants.

Not everyone who is different wants to hide it. The child in the wheelchair might like being the tractor - who else could do it as well? Respecting people's differences does not necessarily, to me, mean pretending that they are not there. If the child prefers not to have that difference emphasized, of course don't - but if the child likes the idea, let him or her do that. Not everyone deals with difference in the same way, so why force them all into one mold, the "blend in with everyone else and don't make waves" mold?

I still remember fondly my mother's story of a lad she taught who had a glass eye. He was so far from being shy of having it known that he'd made it his party trick. He loved when someone who didn't know was bragging or showing off; he always had the perfect response. "Yes, but can you do this?" *pops eye out* Sometimes he'd chase people around with it. If you had a class play with a one-eyed pirate in it, I think you'd have needed the National Guard to pry him off of the part - and good for him.

Shanglan

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

NOT saying a word. :x
NOT a word.
NOT even one.

*stuffing mouth full of Oreos instead*

Thank you. I'll remember your restraint and try to return the favor in the future.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Not too long ago I was in a meeting where a black man was very upset about a story his kid had read. He got up and was doing a number about "Little Black Sambo" being racist. I got up and told him he was an idot. "Little Black Sambo" was about Caucasian people who live in the South of India and are as dark as any African. I then asked him, "Who is being racist now!"

You know, I've run into this debate before. I think that the chief issue, so far as I can work out, is that there are different versions of this book with different illustrations. I have seen one with quite caricatured pictures of the characters - huge red lips, coal-black skin - that look very much like ignorant racist caricatures of African-Americans, and indeed the name "Sambo" was sometimes used as a derogatory name for black people in America. I think that the story of the book itself is quite good, but it's been done in by how people have used and illustrated it. It's a shame, but the man has a point - and honestly, if a books depicts people as grotesque caricatures because they have dark skin, I don't see that it makes much difference which group of people it depicts that way. It's still ugly.

Shanglan

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Thank you. I'll remember your restraint and try to return the favor in the future

actually, I'm on your side on that one...

still NOT saying a word...

*chewing chocolaty creamy goodness*

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

actually, I'm on your side on that one...

still NOT saying a word...

*chewing chocolaty creamy goodness*

Well, now I'm a bit confused, but I still admire your restraint, whatever inspires it. Have another cookie, on me . . .

 

[imalickin]

And then they go and close one of my favorite restaurants back in the 70's or 80's...Sambos. All because of a name. That's just fucked up!

 

[Selena_Kitt]

You know, I've run into this debate before. I think that the chief issue, so far as I can work out, is that there are different versions of this book with different illustrations. I have seen one with quite caricatured pictures of the characters - huge red lips, coal-black skin - that look very much like ignorant racist caricatures of African-Americans, and indeed the name "Sambo" was sometimes used as a derogatory name for black people in America. I think that the story of the book itself is quite good, but it's been done in by how people have used and illustrated it. It's a shame, but the man has a point - and honestly, if a books depicts people as grotesque caricatures because they have dark skin, I don't see that it makes much difference which group of people it depicts that way. It's still ugly.

Shanglan

It was one of my favorite books when I was little (yes, we owned a copy!) and I simply love the story... I actually wish we still had it...

my kids got some videos given to them for Christmas by someone, those bargain-bin ones with a ton of cartoons on them... and one minute we're watching Little Lulu and the next there are these cartoons about natives, headhunters, cannibals, all with huge, grotesquely caricatured features... amazing to think this was "mainstream funny" not so long ago... but it did spark conversation in our house, which is never a bad thing.

 

[BlackShanglan]

It was one of my favorite books when I was little (yes, we owned a copy!) and I simply love the story... I actually wish we still had it...

Yes, that was my feeling when I looked over a copy. The illustrations were beyond the pale, but it was a shame, because the story was great - just the sort of thing that children and adults can both love together.

my kids got some videos given to them for Christmas by someone, those bargain-bin ones with a ton of cartoons on them... and one minute we're watching Little Lulu and the next there are these cartoons about natives, headhunters, cannibals, all with huge, grotesquely caricatured features... amazing to think this was "mainstream funny" not so long ago... but it did spark conversation in our house, which is never a bad thing.

I like that approach. I remember my own parents takng it with various issues as well. Ultimately I think it's the best one - to recognize that the past was not always like the present, and to situate those ideas and images in a moral and ethical context as well as an historical one. I think that what worries people about "Little Black Sambo" when encountered on its own is that it lacks that context as an inherent thing.

And Roxanne, I believe that on the voucher/school choice issue, Selena is a strong proponent of home schooling. I have mixed feelings on the topic, but I think she's very kindly declining to threadjack.

Shanglan

 

[Selena_Kitt]

And Roxanne, I believe that on the voucher/school choice issue, Selena is a strong proponent of home schooling. I have mixed feelings on the topic, but I think she's very kindly declining to threadjack.

but I do support vouchers, for those who choose not to homeschool...

look, these Oreos are just yummy!!

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Here, Selena - try one of these home-schooled, er I mean home-made chocolate chips!

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Here, Selena - try one of these home-schooled, er I mean home-made chocolate chips!

see, now you're just trying to make me fat! And then you'll discriminate against me...

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

see, now you're just trying to make me fat! And then you'll discriminate against me...

Never, and never - your navel and stripes are too adorable.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Never, and never - your navel and stripes are too adorable.

like the zebra look...?
neigh... meow

so confused...

 

[R. Richard]

You know, I've run into this debate before. I think that the chief issue, so far as I can work out, is that there are different versions of this book with different illustrations. I have seen one with quite caricatured pictures of the characters - huge red lips, coal-black skin - that look very much like ignorant racist caricatures of African-Americans, and indeed the name "Sambo" was sometimes used as a derogatory name for black people in America. I think that the story of the book itself is quite good, but it's been done in by how people have used and illustrated it. It's a shame, but the man has a point - and honestly, if a books depicts people as grotesque caricatures because they have dark skin, I don't see that it makes much difference which group of people it depicts that way. It's still ugly.

Shanglan

The particular book that was the center of the controversy showed LBS as a rather attractive little fellow with a turban and very fancy clothing. In fact, the clothing [as in the story] was the most memorable part of the display.

I grew up in an almost all black area. I saw a lot of disrespect handed out to the blacks. However, the worst disrespect was from the schools. It was pretty much assumed that black face meant stupid, unable to learn. Of course, if you treat someone as stupid from and early age, the treatment tends to produce the stereotype.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Of course, if you treat someone as stupid from and early age, the treatment tends to produce the stereotype

self-fulfilling prophecy...

 

[BlackShanglan]

I grew up in an almost all black area. I saw a lot of disrespect handed out to the blacks. However, the worst disrespect was from the schools. It was pretty much assumed that black face meant stupid, unable to learn. Of course, if you treat someone as stupid from and early age, the treatment tends to produce the stereotype.

Yes. There's no form of oppression quite so crushing or all-encompassing as the blandly quiet low expectations.

 

[Stella_Omega]

... to repeat- there are five children playing a troup of monkeys- three of them are white
Take two and call me in the morning.


This particular problem will occur in absolutely any school, traditional, non-traditional, vouchers notwithstanding. It's a people problem, and schools are chock-full of people.

 

[gauchecritic]

Maybe the school went along with it to save on dark face paint or something...

The Chinese kids can be the peanut butter Oreos.

Lots of people would call this casual racism which label implies unconscious, acceptable racism.

I've come to the conclusion that racism, sexism, Bagism, Shagism, Dragism, Madism, Ragism, Tagism,This-ism, that-ism, is-m, is-m, is-m is about confronting fear.

Reducing something fearful to a manageable size, something we may be able to confront.

To the best of my knowledge I've never made a racist remark. I've made sexist remarks, dumbist remarks and shouted at diving footballers to "Get up you queer." but (again to the best of my knowledge) I've never directed those remarks at any person of the stereotypical group in question. This however is not a holier than thou tirade, all my remarks have been casually sexist, ageist etc or acceptable both to me and many others.

Whilst I was forming this post in my head and trying to decide which list of three I would use in the previous paragraph I had to change the style of label and give an example of the homoist (gayist, queerist?) remark, because the only label available was homophobic. Fear of homosexuality.

So what's my point? It is to do with what someone else said earlier. There wouldn't have been any racism evident if no-one had pointed it out, certainly not to the actors and apparently not to the teachers. What has this to do with causal/acceptable racism?

Racism itself has a target, fear. Casual racism, whilst unfortunately and unwittingly bolstering Racism has no target, save an audience.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

This particular problem will occur in absolutely any school, traditional, non-traditional, vouchers notwithstanding. It's a people problem, and schools are chock-full of people.

As is most often the case on matters related to people, your words are wise.

 

[scheherazade_79]

Lots of people would call this casual racism which label implies unconscious, acceptable racism.

I've come to the conclusion that racism, sexism, Bagism, Shagism, Dragism, Madism, Ragism, Tagism,This-ism, that-ism, is-m, is-m, is-m is about confronting fear.

Reducing something fearful to a manageable size, something we may be able to confront.

To the best of my knowledge I've never made a racist remark. I've made sexist remarks, dumbist remarks and shouted at diving footballers to "Get up you queer." but (again to the best of my knowledge) I've never directed those remarks at any person of the stereotypical group in question. This however is not a holier than thou tirade, all my remarks have been casually sexist, ageist etc or acceptable both to me and many others.

Whilst I was forming this post in my head and trying to decide which list of three I would use in the previous paragraph I had to change the style of label and give an example of the homoist (gayist, queerist?) remark, because the only label available was homophobic. Fear of homosexuality.

So what's my point? It is to do with what someone else said earlier. There wouldn't have been any racism evident if no-one had pointed it out, certainly not to the actors and apparently not to the teachers. What has this to do with causal/acceptable racism?

Racism itself has a target, fear. Casual racism, whilst unfortunately and unwittingly bolstering Racism has no target, save an audience.

... Counting to ten slowly....

 

[scheherazade_79]

Actually, screw that. I think I need to count to a thousand before I respond to that.

 

[scheherazade_79]

I'm annoyed and I can't think of the words in English

 

[oggbashan]

I'm annoyed and I can't think of the words in English

Welsh invective is so much more expressive.

Think of a way Dylan Thomas would have said it, or better still, Owain Glendower.

Give it some bardic fervour.

(and then save it, don't post it)

Og