Minimum wage

[rockcasbah]

lil lace reduced to cheerleading for a moron.

You should try improving yourself instead of trying ( oh so poorly) to reduce your superiors.

 

[Philthy_Phil]

In the 70s and 80s a waitress could be a single mother and still be able to afford to feed her family. Americans don't like that.

 

[srgreene]

In the 70s and 80s a waitress could be a single mother and still be able to afford to feed her family. Americans don't like that.

What a snotty thing to say. But a single mom was never a viable economic unit. That's why humanity created this thing called marriage.

Children need fathers. Contrary to what legions of sociologists have said, fathers need to be more than sperm donors.

 

[Philthy_Phil]

What a snotty thing to say. But a single mom was never a viable economic unit. That's why humanity created this thing called marriage.

Children need fathers. Contrary to what legions of sociologists have said, fathers need to be more than sperm donors.

We're not talking about the family unit, dipshit. It's about minimum wage. Whether a woman is married or not has nothing to do with the topic. Try to keep up or go back to just looking at pictures with the other mouth breathers.

 

[rockcasbah]

Phlukradiction.

 

[Conager]

BTW, the US minimum wage hasn't had an inflation raise for twelve years.

Good thing. Inflation would have been much worse.

 

[Lazaran]

What a snotty thing to say. But a single mom was never a viable economic unit. That's why humanity created this thing called marriage.

Children need fathers. Contrary to what legions of sociologists have said, fathers need to be more than sperm donors.

What an ignorant and uninformed thing to say.

Carry on though; patronizing language is sure to help your "cause/agenda"

It takes a village.

 

[rockcasbah]

It takes a village.

Many single mom waitresses have.

 

[Philthy_Phil]

Phlukradiction.

^^^lukaddiction

 

[Lazaran]

Many single mom waitresses have.

And here you thought you were clever.....

Womp Womp Womp

 

[Goldenfinger]

The whole idea of minimum wage is a bad one. It actually hurts some of the people who it purports to help (e.g. it promotes automation of jobs that once were done by low skilled workers, thereby increasing unemployment.

Low wage jobs give young people their vital, first employment opportunities. If you are a career minimum wage worker, the problem is with you, not the market.

The market should decide your wage, not the government. You should think about this issue more deeply before blaming those nasty Republicans. Here's a presentation on the subject that is worth listening to.

https://mises.org/library/minimum-wage

This one is worth reading, if you can be bothered:

https://mises.org/library/repeal-minimum-wage

Things really do get lost over time. I had always believed that a lot of minimum wage jobs were beginner jobs. You learn skills that move you on to better paying jobs.

 

[hulmule]

Back in the day i felt the minimum wage jobs were for the high school kids, kids home from college etc. I feel the system- Schools, etc have let kids down. We dont teach them basic life skills. Balance a check book, saving money, COMMON SENSE. So many things., so now some of those jobs are full employment for people. How do you motivate people to want to move ahead, do a better job, do a quality job? Watched it so many times... Sad ,I dont know what its going to take to make a change in how the system works. Yes the money is needed to survive for some and i see it hurts some businesses to raise that number for them to make a profit.. My 2 cents

 

[rockcasbah]

Back in the day i felt the minimum wage jobs were for the high school kids, kids home from college etc. I feel the system- Schools, etc have let kids down. We dont teach them basic life skills. Balance a check book, saving money, COMMON SENSE. So many things., so now some of those jobs are full employment for people. How do you motivate people to want to move ahead, do a better job, do a quality job? Watched it so many times... Sad ,I dont know what its going to take to make a change in how the system works. Yes the money is needed to survive for some and i see it hurts some businesses to raise that number for them to make a profit.. My 2 cents

Secondary education in the industrialized world was designed to train industrial workers, with post-secondary education training managers.

In the knowledge economy, the only people available to do anything involving labour right now are the elderly and immigrants...that's why you see so many old people and brown people in service jobs.

GenX-ers are a black bubble in the demographic mix...they don't want to work, but they also failed to complete their training as managers, so their collective dissatisfaction darkens progress and will for another 15-25 years.

 

[HisArpy]

Back in the day i felt the minimum wage jobs were for the high school kids, kids home from college etc. I feel the system- Schools, etc have let kids down. We dont teach them basic life skills. Balance a check book, saving money, COMMON SENSE. So many things., so now some of those jobs are full employment for people. How do you motivate people to want to move ahead, do a better job, do a quality job? Watched it so many times... Sad ,I dont know what its going to take to make a change in how the system works. Yes the money is needed to survive for some and i see it hurts some businesses to raise that number for them to make a profit.. My 2 cents

People can't teach what they don't know themselves. We've outsourced our basic living needs to others. We have tax preparers do our taxes. We let banks control our money. We buy already prepared food. Tech tells us that we need to replace our electronic devices even when it's working fine. And so on.

Those who follow this social regimen can't teach others what it takes to do those things and it devolves from there into career specialists who do the basic things in life everyone should know but don't.

 

[mayfly13]

The minimum wage isn't a "salary level" it's a shield against the race to the bottom of the income bracket. IOW, it's the amount that's deemed the lowest any employer can pay so that they don't keep undercutting their own employees just to make a higher profit.
What it's not, and was never intended to be, is the minimum income necessary to live comfortably.

And, even at that, in some industries employers are allowed to pay less as long as the employee receives income from other sources in sufficient amounts that when combined with their pay equal the minimum. Then there are "trainees" who are allowed to be paid less than minimum wage during their training period.

Thanks, I and I presume others had a poor understanding of these notions.

But how can one address the anomaly of most mainstream blue collar jobs now being remunerated so poorly? (almost same pay as 20 years ago, at twice the workload(Tgere just aren't other better paid jobs for people to move on to.

People in this thread gave fantastic explanations of the phenomenon (what a refreshing contrast to the Trump sucks versus Biden sucks replies next door....)
but fewer suggestions.

The whole idea of minimum wage is a bad one. It actually hurts some of the people who it purports to help (e.g. it promotes automation of jobs that once were done by low skilled workers, thereby increasing unemployment.

could you elaborate more? I didn't quite understand.
initially I agreed with you, but then you went on to criticize/blame those who are still working minimum wage jobs.

Secondary education in the industrialized world was designed to train industrial workers, with post-secondary education training managers.

In the knowledge economy, the only people available to do anything involving labour right now are the elderly and immigrants...that's why you see so many old people and brown people in service jobs.

GenX-ers are a black bubble in the demographic mix...they don't want to work, but they also failed to complete their training as managers, so their collective dissatisfaction darkens progress and will for another 15-25 years.

Back in the day i felt the minimum wage jobs were for the high school kids, kids home from college etc. I feel the system- Schools, etc have let kids down. We dont teach them basic life skills. Balance a check book, saving money, COMMON SENSE. So many things., so now some of those jobs are full employment for people. How do you motivate people to want to move ahead, do a better job, do a quality job? Watched it so many times... Sad ,I dont know what its going to take to make a change in how the system works. Yes the money is needed to survive for some and i see it hurts some businesses to raise that number for them to make a profit.. My 2 cents

yup, unless you also agree with srgreene's condescending comment:
"Low wage jobs give young people their vital, first employment opportunities. If you are a career minimum wage worker, the problem is with you, not the market."

 

[Liar]

yup, unless you also agree with srgreene's condescending comment:
"Low wage jobs give young people their vital, first employment opportunities. If you are a career minimum wage worker, the problem is with you, not the market."

Question here is, is there a viable career ladder, sturdy enough to support all who wish to climb it? Or was there once one, and the people who did climb it in ye olden days don't realize it's withered away and been replaced by an oily rope, a couple of thorny vines and a hidden springboard you might randomly step on out of sheer luck. And the already elevated now sit on their perch and shout down, "Just step on the first rung, you lazy bastards!" But they're old and hard of hearing, so they miss the replies that say "What bloody rung?"

 

[Rightguide]

How can Republicans defend such modern-day slavery, while advocating for tax cuts for corporations? And why did Biden and Kamala refuse to change the system?

By realizing the simple truth that the Minimum Wage is not a living wage, but an entry level wage, nothing more. It's not slavery, nobody told unemployable people to drop out of school and they weren't snatched off the street by press gangs dragging them off to the nearest hamburger stand to make French fries.

 

[Lazaran]

Question here is, is there a viable career ladder, sturdy enough to support all who wish to climb it? Or was there once one, and the people who did climb it in ye olden days don't realize it's withered away and been replaced by an oily rope, a couple of thorny vines and a hidden springboard you might randomly step on out of sheer luck. And the already elevated now sit on their perch and shout down, "Just step on the first rung, you lazy bastards!" But they're old and hard of hearing, so they miss the replies that say "What bloody rung?"

After this comment, I would say this thread can be shut down.

The assessment is 100% correct, which means it will be summarily ignored or dismissed by the RWCJ.

*nods*

 

[mayfly13]

Question here is, is there a viable career ladder, sturdy enough to support all who wish to climb it? Or was there once one, and the people who did climb it in ye olden days don't realize it's withered away and been replaced by an oily rope, a couple of thorny vines and a hidden springboard you might randomly step on out of sheer luck. And the already elevated now sit on their perch and shout down, "Just step on the first rung, you lazy bastards!" But they're old and hard of hearing, so they miss the replies that say "What bloody rung?"

exactly. And the myth of meritocracy remains.

The only part that is still functional --the way it should be--in the West, is that people with a College or Uni degree, or certain aprenteships can still make an above-average living.
That Must be due to some fineprint in employee protection legislation, otherwise I Could see big corporations or governments trying to profit by bringing down Their wages down too.

Unlike those who are the backbone of the economy: drivers, factory workers, construction, supermarket and hospital workers.

 

[ishtat]

Question here is, is there a viable career ladder, sturdy enough to support all who wish to climb it? Or was there once one, and the people who did climb it in ye olden days don't realize it's withered away and been replaced by an oily rope, a couple of thorny vines and a hidden springboard you might randomly step on out of sheer luck. And the already elevated now sit on their perch and shout down, "Just step on the first rung, you lazy bastards!" But they're old and hard of hearing, so they miss the replies that say "What bloody rung?"

Almost prose poetry Liar!

 

[Liar]

After this comment, I would say this thread can be shut down.

The assessment is 100% correct, which means it will be summarily ignored or dismissed by the RWCJ.

*nods*

Tbh, I was just asking the question. I'd guess the answer is somewhere in between. Niether rainbows and unicorn farts nor a complete dystopia. Closer to the shitty side of things, but not beyond repair.

Also, while raising the minimum wage is a good idea for the general welfare of the working poor (not to mention fiscally sound, since the working poor now rely on taxpayer financed supplemental benefits), it doesn't fix that particular problem. Damn career ladder is still broken. If you were stuck below $15 you'll now be stuck at $15. "Oh but it will raise all wages with it". Ideally, but not certainly. And not without massive inertia.

Fixing that is a separate and way more complex issue. Untangling healthcare from employment (and wealth), untangling education from crippling debt, tackling the lack of afforable housing, common sense regulation of the gig economy, simplifying business startups, and much more.

 

[Sean]

Tbh, I was just asking the question. I'd guess the answer is somewhere in between. Niether rainbows and unicorn farts nor a complete dystopia. Closer to the shitty side of things, but not beyond repair.

Also, while raising the minimum wage is a good idea for the general welfare of the working poor (not to mention fiscally sound, since the working poor now rely on taxpayer financed supplemental benefits), it doesn't fix that particular problem. Damn career ladder is still broken. If you were stuck below $15 you'll now be stuck at $15. "Oh but it will raise all wages with it". Ideally, but not certainly. And not without massive inertia.

Fixing that is a separate and way more complex issue. Untangling healthcare from employment (and wealth), untangling education from crippling debt, tackling the lack of afforable housing, common sense regulation of the gig economy, simplifying business startups, and much more.

Excellent post, this.

 

[RobDownSouth]

What it's not, and was never intended to be, is the minimum income necessary to live comfortably. Anyone who thinks it is could stand to do some reading on how it was enacted and why.

Franklin Delano Roosevelt disagrees with your quaint notion

"no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country.”

 

[bellisarius]

There are some good posts in this thread, from both sides.

There are some points that have been missed though and those are;

1. The government, at any level, that raises minimum wage is in effect giving itself a raise. At the Federal level the most regressive tax is the payroll tax. It's a fixed percent of the wage earners paycheck. This percentage is matched by the employer. The higher the minimum wage, the more the government collects. At the local and state level this translates into higher prices for goods and services which in turn translates into more tax dollars flowing into the state/county/city coffers.

2. Let's call minimum wage earners what they are, menial workers. These jobs require the least skill of any in the job market and virtually anyone can be trained to fulfill these rolls. The minimum wage worker is usually found in those sectors of the economy that provide basic services. Fast food, grocery, construction laborer (in some areas only). There comes a point where the goods/services provided are not worth the cost to those who are earning above minimum wage. Minimum wage acts as an incentive to price these individuals out of the labor market or as pointed out in another post, to automate the job.

3. Anyone not severely handicapped, mentally or physically, can move out of the minimum wage arena through education and hard work. Hard work is recognized by any employer and is rewarded. Minimum wage is a foot in the door, not a career.

4. Higher minimum wages drive automation. Today everyone points to Amazon as a driver in working their people hard but you need to look at the level of automation in their distribution centers. A model that was actually created by Avon decades ago. Low wage earners (minimum wage) are replaced by higher skilled workers, just far fewer of them. This in turn creates a situation where far too much labor is chasing far fewer jobs. At some point the welfare system breaks down.

Overall minimum wage laws do no good for anyone except the politicians. They can pretend they're doing 'good' while actually doing harm in the long run. Go to the grocery store, the gas station, the lumber yard, damn near anywhere you go, what are you paying for the goods and services today? This is all do to government interference in the markets. And these higher prices are driving the calls for higher minimum wages, which in turn will increase the cost of good and services which will require yet more calls for higher minimum wages. See the cycle here?

There is a percentage of the population in an economy, any economy, that live at a subsistence level. Some out of choice, some out of self-imposed limitations. You can raise the minimum wage to $100/hr., the economy will adjust and they'll still be living at a subsistence level. No law conceived by man, no matter how well intentioned, will ever change the nature of man.

 

[BluesDriver66]

FDR was absolutely correct. If you can't pay your workers a living wage you have a shitty business model. Just the same if you can't pay your suppliers or lease. Imagine these same shitty arguments for the cost of labor if used elsewhere. "You're a new supplier so I don't have to pay you market prices for your products" or "If I have to pay fair market rent prices I'll go out of business", or "The only way I can make a profit is to under pay my vendors and landlord. They should be happy to be under payed because they would have no customers at all if I didn't under pay them".