Making the choice to end your life. Euthenasia, and should it be allowed?

[warrior queen]

One of my rare tv watching days, and I see a segment on euthenasia.
A healthy, 89 year old woman decided it was time to die.
She had lost her husband, and then her dog, and was simply tired of living.
She was also greatly concerned that as she got older, she might suffer something like a stroke, and was incredibly fearful that she might not be able to make that decision if that happened and would be placed (without her consent) into a home or palliative care hospice, where she would just wither away, possibly in pain.

She had a friend pick up a drug in Mexico, and picked the date of her death.
Then she called a reporter and gave an interview to fully explain her decision.
She was extremely clear and concise during the interview. In full control of her faculties.

Was this wrong?
And if you think so, why?

 

[imalickin]

I can tell the lines will be drawn---

I have no problem with anyone at any time taking their life.

Personally, I will hang on as long as I can, but it may eventually be in my best interest to end things. I hope I will be allowed.

 

[ImSinister]

Beloved Wife - Natalie Merchant

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Yne1wHgITc

This song, besides making me cry every time I hear it, speaks to your question.

At one point the surviving spouse ponders suicide since he can't go on without his wife.

"... renounce my life, as is my right . . ."

 

[ImSinister]

The whole idea is such a heavy one. For someone to whom opinions usually come fast and hard, they come and slip away from my grasp easily on this topic.

 

[warrior queen]

I've been busy, but this has been niggling away in the back of my head....
I'm not sure how I feel about an essentially healthy person making the decision to die, because of what might happen.
Then again, I can fully understand the fear of having something sudden and catastrophic occur which could rob you of the choice. Being locked away in a hospice scares the crap out of me - my mother works in such a place and some of the things she says happen are trully frightening.

I guess what I'm saying is that I would like to have the choice, but I'm not sure I'd ever excercise it.

 

[warrior queen]

Link to story...

http://au.news.yahoo.com/sunday-night/features/article/-/15329075/crossing-the-line/

 

[fair_warning]

I guess what I'm saying is that I would like to have the choice, but I'm not sure I'd ever excercise it.

So, it's about legalising the process of choosing how/when to die. There will be fees, you know that don't you?

 

[warrior queen]

So, it's about legalising the process of choosing how/when to die. There will be fees, you know that don't you?

Not so much legalising it, but perhaps decriminalising the process?

And taking away the suicide stigma if someone makes a fully-informed decision?

 

[MissMaidenMinx]

Terry Pratchett did a great little doco on this subject, calleed Choosing to Die. He went to Switzerland to where they have voluntary euthanasia and the only stipulation is that you have your wits about you and can pick up and drink the drugs yourself. It was very interesting. He followed the stories of 3 people that were going through the process of taking their own lives. It was so sad.

 

[Byron In Exile]

I've been busy, but this has been niggling away in the back of my head....
I'm not sure how I feel about an essentially healthy person making the decision to die, because of what might happen.

Suicide is everyone's right.

And being healthy and of sound mind is being in the best circumstance in which to make a decision like that.

Then again, I can fully understand the fear of having something sudden and catastrophic occur which could rob you of the choice. Being locked away in a hospice scares the crap out of me - my mother works in such a place and some of the things she says happen are trully frightening.

Yeah... that's Twilight Zone material right there.

Once you're in the system, they won't let you die, because they've sworn oaths to keep you alive at whatever cost. Thankfully, at least now they're recognizing that someone with a flatline EEG isn't actually "alive," anyway.

Most people can expect that 90% of all they spend on medical care in their lifetime will be in the last 6 months of their life. In a hospital bed.

Now, obviously, if someone wants to live in that state, then that's their right. But someone who doesn't? Srsly?

I guess what I'm saying is that I would like to have the choice, but I'm not sure I'd ever excercise it.

Whether you did or not, I'm sure you'd feel better knowing the choice was yours.

 

[MissMaidenMinx]

Suicide is everyone's right.

And being healthy and of sound mind is being in the best circumstance in which to make a decision like that.

Yeah... that's Twilight Zone material right there.

Once you're in the system, they won't let you die, because they've sworn oaths to keep you alive at whatever cost. Thankfully, at least now they're recognizing that someone with a flatline EEG isn't actually "alive," anyway.

Most people can expect that 90% of all they spend on medical care in their lifetime will be in the last 6 months of their life. In a hospital bed.

Now, obviously, if someone wants to live in that state, then that's their right. But someone who doesn't? Srsly?

Whether you did or not, I'm sure you'd feel better knowing the choice was yours.

I agree with all of this.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

"Once you're in the system, they won't let you die, because they've sworn oaths to keep you alive at whatever cost."

rotfl...

Talk about living in Plato's cave!

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Abortion, sure, why not?

Euthanasia? sure why not?

Poor quality of life? Sure why not?



The important thing is the self sacrifice in the name of the bottom line.

People should know when they cost more to maintain than they earn and do the right thing!

 

[Byron In Exile]

"Once you're in the system, they won't let you die, because they've sworn oaths to keep you alive at whatever cost."

rotfl...

Talk about living in Plato's cave!

And I've been outside.

Those shadows aren't what you think they are.

 

[Byron In Exile]

Abortion, sure, why not?

Euthanasia? sure why not?

Poor quality of life? Sure why not?

The important thing is the self sacrifice in the name of the bottom line.

People should know when they cost more to maintain than they earn and do the right thing!

Not really.

They can do or not do, as they choose.

What we're talking about here is: should they have that choice?

 

[CandiCame]

And I've been outside.

Those shadows aren't what you think they are.

Then isn't this the point where we're all supposed to scream bullshit and not believe you? That allegory was supposed to prove that people are dumb as hell and like it that way.

But as far as the euthanasia thing... When my great grandpa was dying at the age of 96 the doctors said that all they could legally do was take him off the machines. They couldn't actually help him along. His lungs were destroyed and so he had to lie there and suffocate to death. That's a bunch of bullshit. He deserved better then that. He had already made the call to die- he asked to die. But he wasn't allowed a fast death. When he made the decision, it was just to go off life support. So how the fuck does that make sense? You aren't making the decision of whether or not you want to die, you're making the decision of how you want to die.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Should I have the choice to "sell" a kidney?

You must realize that the Knights of Kant have a peculiar and convoluted morality about them in which the idea you expressed, save the patient at any cost, and iPAB recommendations about end of life counseling can co-exist very comfortably in the mind of a liberal doctor...

Because cost is different if it is a rich individual or a poor, or aged middle-class personage where the cost must be born by that individual we know as society.

We'll do everything we can to reduce the cost to the latter "individual."

(As a corporation is an individual.)

Additionally, is it a real choice if we hit them with that false morality of "the greater good" and the nobility of self-sacrifice at their weakest moment in life? Is it not then almost a religious imperative in a time where the government has replaced the Son of God with the Sun of Altruism?

A_J's corollary #3, “The New Age Liberal maintains contradictory positions comfortably compartmentalized. (This is because the New Age Liberal is a creature that believes in consensus as a short-cut to an examination of the facts and a reasoned judgment about said facts. Corollary #2.)”

... under the name of the state the citizens taken collectively are considered as a real being, having its own life, its own wealth, independently of the lives and the wealth of the citizens themselves; and then each addresses this fictitious being, some to obtain from it education, others employment, others credit, others food, etc., etc. Now the state can give nothing to the citizens that it has not first taken from them.
Frédéric Bastiat

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Then isn't this the point where we're all supposed to scream bullshit and not believe you? That allegory was supposed to prove that people are dumb as hell and like it that way.

But as far as the euthanasia thing... When my great grandpa was dying at the age of 96 the doctors said that all they could legally do was take him off the machines. They couldn't actually help him along. His lungs were destroyed and so he had to lie there and suffocate to death. That's a bunch of bullshit. He deserved better then that. He had already made the call to die- he asked to die. But he wasn't allowed a fast death. When he made the decision, it was just to go off life support. So how the fuck does that make sense? You aren't making the decision of whether or not you want to die, you're making the decision of how you want to die.

Barbara Eden was not willing to fuck me to death...

 

[Byron In Exile]

Then isn't this the point where we're all supposed to scream bullshit and not believe you? That allegory was supposed to prove that people are dumb as hell and like it that way.

Pretty much.

But as far as the euthanasia thing... When my great grandpa was dying at the age of 96 the doctors said that all they could legally do was take him off the machines. They couldn't actually help him along. His lungs were destroyed and so he had to lie there and suffocate to death. That's a bunch of bullshit. He deserved better then that. He had already made the call to die- he asked to die. But he wasn't allowed a fast death. When he made the decision, it was just to go off life support. So how the fuck does that make sense? You aren't making the decision of whether or not you want to die, you're making the decision of how you want to die.

That's horrible. I am sorry. Normally, if a case is terminal, they'll just keep increasing the morphine so that there isn't any pain.

 

[Byron In Exile]

Should I have the choice to "sell" a kidney?

That depends on whether your kidney is your property, or property of the State.

 

[Byron In Exile]

So, AJ, who owns your kidneys?

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Pretty much.

That's horrible. I am sorry. Normally, if a case is terminal, they'll just keep increasing the morphine so that there isn't any pain.

And we get to pick the lovely backdrop and music while whispering...



"Soylent Green is people!"

 

[Byron In Exile]

And we get to pick the lovely backdrop and music while whispering...

"Soylent Green is people!"

If I had the choice to go out looking at those beautiful nature scenes while listening to Beethoven's 6th Symphony, or to lie in a hospital bed for months stuck full of tubes and having nurses wipe my ass... there's no doubt in my mind what I'd choose.

Eat me.

 

[butters]

One of my rare tv watching days, and I see a segment on euthenasia.
A healthy, 89 year old woman decided it was time to die.
She had lost her husband, and then her dog, and was simply tired of living.
She was also greatly concerned that as she got older, she might suffer something like a stroke, and was incredibly fearful that she might not be able to make that decision if that happened and would be placed (without her consent) into a home or palliative care hospice, where she would just wither away, possibly in pain.

She had a friend pick up a drug in Mexico, and picked the date of her death.
Then she called a reporter and gave an interview to fully explain her decision.
She was extremely clear and concise during the interview. In full control of her faculties.

Was this wrong?
And if you think so, why?

i think it's wrong that she had to have a friend go to mexico to pick up the drug. it's wrong that's it's still viewed as criminal.

taking one's own life is always an option. not always the best.

to do it with clear forethought, explanations and goodbyes, without leaving a traumatic and ghastly mess for others to clear up? what can be wrong with that?

to make one endure when life is no longer desired, often in pain or in struggle, is all kinds of wrong to me - it's considered a kindness for any animal, why not for humans?

what's important is building in the protection-factor so misuse is drastically limited - 'cos it's never going to be entirely eliminated.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

So, AJ, who owns your kidneys?

I do.

But when life is optional according to quality of life, what becomes of those adjudged to be without the "standard quality of life," as say measured by a board of experts?

What happens when you do not "volunteer" to do the right thing as morphine is the only treatment, other than counseling that you are deemed cost-effective enough to receive? What if my kidney is more valuable to society than it is to me in the judgement of my legal guardian, the State? Perhaps they may sell it for me to defer the cost of my "euthanasia..."

We have already seen that the close interdependence of all economic phenomena makes it difficult to stop planning just where we wish and that, once the free working of the market is impeded beyond a certain degree, the planner will be forced to extend his control until they become all-comprehensive. These economic considerations, which explain why it is impossible to stop deliberate control just where we would wish, are strongly reinforced by certain social or political tendencies whose strength makes itself increasingly felt as planning extends.

Once it becomes increasingly true, and is generally recognized, that the position of the individual is determined not by impersonal forces, not as a result of the competitive efforts of many, but by the deliberate decision of authority; the attitude of the people towards their position in the social order necessarily changes. There will always exist inequalities which appear just to those who suffer, disappointments which will appear unmerited, and strokes of misfortune which those hit have not deserved. But when these things occur in a society which is consciously directed, they way in which people will react will be very different from what it is when they are nobody's conscious choice.
From Who, Whom?
FA Hayek, Road to Serfdom, Chapter eight p. 137