M/s...why or why not?

[Keroin]

I can't speak to Catalina's experience, but I can relate to it.

I am the driver in our relationship. Many, many times over the years, I have been required to drive when I was sick or in pain. And I have taken my responsibility both to the people in my own car, and in the other cars, very, very seriously.

It's not a game. It's not about getting off on feeling pain at the expense of other people.

The only time I ever got in a car accident was when I was young and drunk. And because of the demands put on me, I can't and don't drink at all.

I've had to drive carefully, slowly. I've had to stop and throw up at the side of the road, more times than I care to remember. I've had to keep myself alert and aware during moments when my body wanted to rest.

But people, not just slaves, are capable of doing things safely even when they are in pain. Sometimes, as slaves, we are asked to do things that other people would say "no" to. But going ahead and doing those things, testing the limits of our own body and mind, often allows me to see that I am capable of much more than I thought I was. It also allows me to let go of certain limiting ideas about myself and and other people.

On the other hand, people do push themselves past the limits of what their body can handle, either at their own or at other people's bidding. People do seriously cripple themselves as a result.

Some slaves are willing to do that for the sake of their relationship. Some masters may require it.

Some athletes are willing to do that for the sake of their career. Some coaches may require it.

Some soldiers are required to do it for the sake of their country. Some countries require it.

I'm not trying to equate these experiences. But they are all on a continuum of willing sacrifice and potential danger.

It says a lot about my character that I'm willing to be a slave, but not an athlete or a soldier. But I'm hoping to put it into terms that might make sense to people who wouldn't choose this lifestyle.

This all makes a lot of sense, absolutely. I'm sure not everyone drives when they're at the peak of health but then there are a lot of hideously bad drivers out there who also don't think twice about eating their lunch or talking on their cell phone.

I think I need to clarify my POV to make more sense. Have you ever seen on TV where a car is racing down the road and then suddenly whips around and parallel parks between two cars with six inches to spare on each side? That's me, that's my level of skill. I know driving. I also know injuries, intimately. I would drive if I had the flu *if* knew I was driving on a route with the option to pull over. I would not put myself behind a wheel with a broken tailbone. I have seen people pass out from that kind of pain - pass out when they said they were fine.

If someone wants to push their body to the limit that's cool but they should do that under circumstances that do not put others unnecessarily at risk.

Sorry, I know that sounds harsh but in the world I came from you just didn't fuck around with automobiles except under controlled circumstances. So, this is my personal thing. It's likely I'm the only person here who feels this way and that's fine. To each his own, etc.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Have you come across many M/s unions that were similar to each other?

Though the external details of our lives differ greatly, I have identified with many of the feelings and internal experiences you have expressed. By definition, I think the shape of the relationship depends on the nature of the master in an M/s relationship. But I find it very interesting that the feeling-experience of the slave no matter what the circumstances are often bear striking similarities.

I'd be curious if masters feel the same way.

hmm, that's something to ponder. my Master's Dominant friends are all single or bounce around from one relationship to the other. so in our social circle we are often looked upon with awe and wonder and envy, like the white unicorn. what..a 24/7, peaceful and relatively happy, loving M/s relationship...that's lasted 9 whole years!! people think we should win awards or something, lol. but that makes me sad, that something like this seems to be rare.

but to answer your question easternsun, i have come across surprisingly many M/s unions which are built upon very similar foundations, similar values, even similar protocol. but what you mention about the emotional journey of the slave, i too have felt a kinship with other slaves there, with those who follow a similar path and those who do not. that is a great comfort to me.

but those Masters, they are such independent creatures. i don't think there is usually that same desire for belonging or kinship with them. i do not think that Daddy would care if he were the only Master, the only Dominant, the only Graphic Designer, the only Musician, the only Man on earth...he is just so comfortable and confident in who he is and his own path. at least, that's the way it looks from this end.

 

[ownedsubgal]

He doesn't have to be good, he has to be right.

this is how i feel in a nutshell.

Do you think a slave has to be good, but a Master doesn't?

my first instinct is to say yes to this. a slave has to be good, but the Master decides what those standards are. i do not feel that a Master has to be good. and by that i mean, being a Master is not defined by how good or thoughtful or kind or righteous or fair someone may be. more than that, i think it's very important that as slaves we accept that even our loving, decent "good" Masters have the right to not be quite so good at times, that sometimes they may make us clean the kitchen when we're sick and fevered, sometimes they may demand a blowjob after we've just received the news that a loved one has died, sometimes they may deny us food for a few days just cuz, sometimes they may tell some stranger they come across to have his way with us, sometimes they may make us drive 16 hours on a broken tailbone or shove us down a flight of stairs because we just didn't know when to shut up.

i accept that sometimes, Daddy won't be good.

 

[MisterSir]

sometimes they may make us drive 16 hours on a broken tailbone or shove us down a flight of stairs because we just didn't know when to shut up.

...as much as I respect the "your kink is not my kink but it's all good" sentiment, that sounds more like being an utter twat without a modicum of concern for his slave's well-being. Bet he'd feel awesome when she passes out from the pain of driving, crashes into a tree and dies, eh?

 

[graceanne]

A little side note:

I'm not allowed to drive if I'm tired or sick. I fall asleep.

 

[Etoile]

this is how i feel in a nutshell.



my first instinct is to say yes to this. a slave has to be good, but the Master decides what those standards are. i do not feel that a Master has to be good. and by that i mean, being a Master is not defined by how good or thoughtful or kind or righteous or fair someone may be. more than that, i think it's very important that as slaves we accept that even our loving, decent "good" Masters have the right to not be quite so good at times, that sometimes they may make us clean the kitchen when we're sick and fevered, sometimes they may demand a blowjob after we've just received the news that a loved one has died, sometimes they may deny us food for a few days just cuz, sometimes they may tell some stranger they come across to have his way with us, sometimes they may make us drive 16 hours on a broken tailbone or shove us down a flight of stairs because we just didn't know when to shut up.

i accept that sometimes, Daddy won't be good.

And for those who would say "how horrible such things are, that's abuse, blah blah blah" - so don't pick a Master like osg's. If you can't handle the examples she gave, don't pick a Master who's going to use them. If you want someone who IS thoughtful, kind, etc. all the time, then don't partner up with someone who won't be.

 

[graceanne]

And for those who would say "how horrible such things are, that's abuse, blah blah blah" - so don't pick a Master like osg's. If you can't handle the examples she gave, don't pick a Master who's going to use them. If you want someone who IS thoughtful, kind, etc. all the time, then don't partner up with someone who won't be.

Pretty much. That's pretty much what I was saying when I was saying to be careful when making that kind of commitment. If you don't want a relationship like osg's then don't choose a master like hers, etc.

 

[intothewoods]

Thanks for that link. I read as far as page four before my head began to scream at me for a break. (Why did "ownership" have to be in red? That really bothered me as I was trying to read.)

I liked this from you...



I've tried to express this somewhat here and on other threads but you captured it better than I have. I call it the Highly Constructed Version of Reality. I have my HCVR, I believe everyone does, to some degree, but I've also learned that many find the concept offensive.

I'm going to be brutally honest. Reading that link and other threads on similar topics I see a repetition of the same themes over and over. My intuition tells me there is a high level of defensiveness in the BDSM community. One side is perceived as being too extreme, the other as too fake, or they believe that is how they are perceived by each other. At some point, things get personal and an argument ensues. I've been around only a short while and I'm curious to know if this tug-of-war has always been present?
I will admit that some of the more hardcore activities I read about do shock me and trigger my "Is that healthy?" response. (My response to the driving with a broken tailbone story is a good example).

BTW, it was interesting reading Homburg pre-MIS and at the beginnings of his entry into M/s (or whatever he chooses to call it). Also his declaration that poly is "damn hard work". LOL

Ownership is highlighted because JM searched the word "ownership" to find that link. I think.

As to the bold part, it's one tug of war. My experience in the bdsm world is limited to my local scene, this board and fetlife, but there seem to be many different camps and the camps butt heads from time to time. Eh, whadya gonna do.

I also had the "is that healthy" kneejerk reaction repeatedly for a period of time. The answer has been "no," plenty of times, but I'm not in charge of the world. At some point, I maybe became jaded at reading about nuttiness after nuttiness and it didn't faze me. And I finally came to feel that my life was healthy and so everyone else didn't really matter. Although I'm still not going to say "who are we to judge" to everything just because it's bdsm. But people will do what they want to do, regardless of whether it receievs the ITW stamp of approval. (Shocking, I know!) If some people want to do batshit crazy stuff in their life, that's cool, we can chit chat at a party, but I'm not inviting them over for dinner. I'm not saying that is what's behind your reaction. Just sharing my experience.

 

[intothewoods]

And for those who would say "how horrible such things are, that's abuse, blah blah blah" - so don't pick a Master like osg's. If you can't handle the examples she gave, don't pick a Master who's going to use them. If you want someone who IS thoughtful, kind, etc. all the time, then don't partner up with someone who won't be.

And, quite frankly, don't hang out with them. Hey, I have a low tolerance for Republicans. It's a free country.

 

[Tabea]

Sorry, I know that sounds harsh but in the world I came from you just didn't fuck around with automobiles except under controlled circumstances. So, this is my personal thing. It's likely I'm the only person here who feels this way and that's fine. To each his own, etc.

No, you are not the only one. I was thinking the same.

Last year I injured my tail bone and my sacral bone. The pain was intense and sitting was basically unbearable. I wouldn't have been able to concentrate on driving.

my first instinct is to say yes to this. a slave has to be good, but the Master decides what those standards are. i do not feel that a Master has to be good. and by that i mean, being a Master is not defined by how good or thoughtful or kind or righteous or fair someone may be. more than that, i think it's very important that as slaves we accept that even our loving, decent "good" Masters have the right to not be quite so good at times, that sometimes they may make us clean the kitchen when we're sick and fevered, sometimes they may demand a blowjob after we've just received the news that a loved one has died, sometimes they may deny us food for a few days just cuz, sometimes they may tell some stranger they come across to have his way with us, sometimes they may make us drive 16 hours on a broken tailbone or shove us down a flight of stairs because we just didn't know when to shut up.

i accept that sometimes, Daddy won't be good.

I think the starving and cleaning examples are completely different and not comparable at all. Those things do not put others at risk who are outside the dynamic.
The health risks are also not comparable. With a broken tail bone doctors tell you not to sit on it and to avoid drives because of possible bumps in the road.
If the bones had twisted or shifted as a consequence of the drive that could have caused a huge amount of pain and misery for a long time. It’s bad enough if an injury happens but how people can provoke such grievous health problems is completely beyond me.
I also don’t believe you have to be extremely thoughtful or a very good person to not make somebody drive under these circumstances.

 

[ownedsubgal]

And for those who would say "how horrible such things are, that's abuse, blah blah blah" - so don't pick a Master like osg's. If you can't handle the examples she gave, don't pick a Master who's going to use them. If you want someone who IS thoughtful, kind, etc. all the time, then don't partner up with someone who won't be.

know your potential Master well, yes. know who they are, what they're about, their drive and character, etc. that should go without saying (should). however the point i was attempting to make is that no one, and i mean no one, is going to be 100% kind, thoughtful, considerate, compassionate, nice ALL THE TIME. therefore to label someone who is you know...normal, human...as a "bad" Master because they are not kittens and ice cream towards you all of the time, is a bit ridiculous imo.

and again as a slave i think you have to be open and willing to accept the possibilities for the "bad" to come out in your "good" Master from time to time. that is all i'm saying.

 

[Netzach]

I'm not suggesting she was goaded into it and I have no problem with people willingly accepting levels of control that I cannot. So, as I said, if she was cool with it fine.

But I just couldn't shake this story from my head and I finally realized why.

There's more to this instance to me than one person's pain - and I don't know the details so I won't rant too heavily. I drove professionally and to extremes. I have enormous respect for automobiles and I'm a highly skilled driver. I would never put myself behind the wheel of a car, on a public road, under those circumstances and if someone else told me to do so I'd refuse. It's not my safety, alone, that's an issue, it's the other drivers on the road.

I love driving, throttle sports are my faves, but I take my responsibility seriously when I'm in control of a large, potentially lethal, piece of metal.

That's a really good point. I have no idea what driving conditions are where they were. It's entirely likely that no one else was at substantial risk and they were in the middle of remote Pyrenees or who knows what, too.

Endangering and exposing other people is kind of a dick move, and if this is crowded city conditions, I think this kind of exposure merits at least as much consideration as other people's children staring up your pantiless minidress kinds of worries, which most of us would neeeeever do.

 

[Netzach]

Ownership is highlighted because JM searched the word "ownership" to find that link. I think.

As to the bold part, it's one tug of war. My experience in the bdsm world is limited to my local scene, this board and fetlife, but there seem to be many different camps and the camps butt heads from time to time. Eh, whadya gonna do.

I also had the "is that healthy" kneejerk reaction repeatedly for a period of time. The answer has been "no," plenty of times, but I'm not in charge of the world. At some point, I maybe became jaded at reading about nuttiness after nuttiness and it didn't faze me. And I finally came to feel that my life was healthy and so everyone else didn't really matter. Although I'm still not going to say "who are we to judge" to everything just because it's bdsm. But people will do what they want to do, regardless of whether it receievs the ITW stamp of approval. (Shocking, I know!) If some people want to do batshit crazy stuff in their life, that's cool, we can chit chat at a party, but I'm not inviting them over for dinner. I'm not saying that is what's behind your reaction. Just sharing my experience.

Part of me is like, so the fuck what if it's NOT healthy. If the people involved have eyes open to it and know that they're fucked up, they have every *right* to be. You have agency over your own body, even to the point where you can give that to someone else, even if that's all in your own mind and not legally backed up to one bit. There's not a lot we can control in life, and I really like the idea of people having ultimate and total rights to their person. And sorry, but it's those ultimate and total rights to your person that even permits the concept of giving those over to the person of your choosing.

 

[Netzach]

know your potential Master well, yes. know who they are, what they're about, their drive and character, etc. that should go without saying (should). however the point i was attempting to make is that no one, and i mean no one, is going to be 100% kind, thoughtful, considerate, compassionate, nice ALL THE TIME. therefore to label someone who is you know...normal, human...as a "bad" Master because they are not kittens and ice cream towards you all of the time, is a bit ridiculous imo.

and again as a slave i think you have to be open and willing to accept the possibilities for the "bad" to come out in your "good" Master from time to time. that is all i'm saying.

I'd expect surprises from time to time but throwing me down a flight of stairs would mean that the person I'm with was having a psychotic reaction or the top of the stairs were on fire. So I maintain that my submissive responses to him aren't invalidated by my willingness to think that the latter would be some kind of deal-ending bait and switch, nor is a slave's who's never had the slightest precedent of such things and with whom such possibilities were never remotely suggested possible. Some people's "do anything to me" is totally flat out literal. That's fine. Other people's is rooted in "what I know of you I love and trust, so do what you will." The familiarity and confidence.

When I say "I could do anything I want to you" if you know me and look at my general comportment and track record, you can fairly well guess that that's not going to happen. Some massive headgame to make you THINK I would. A test of your willingness to let me and check, all systems are good, maybe. If I did turn around and do something deliberately physically risky to that level, over which I had so little control of outcome (fall path, obstacles, dunno) that wouldn't be part of my "anything" as it's been sussed out. Irreperable damage to confidence and trust would be no surprise at all.

 

[intothewoods]

Part of me is like, so the fuck what if it's NOT healthy. If the people involved have eyes open to it and know that they're fucked up, they have every *right* to be. You have agency over your own body, even to the point where you can give that to someone else, even if that's all in your own mind and not legally backed up to one bit. There's not a lot we can control in life, and I really like the idea of people having ultimate and total rights to their person. And sorry, but it's those ultimate and total rights to your person that even permits the concept of giving those over to the person of your choosing.

Everyone has a right to live whatever life they please, so long as it's not hurting others. I think what has irked me in the past is the idea that as a bdsm community we never judge others, when of course, we do judge others. Everyone just draws their line in a different place. But anyway, I also recognize that some people thrive in what might, for me, be an unhealthy atmosphere.

 

[Netzach]

Everyone has a right to live whatever life they please, so long as it's not hurting others. I think what has irked me in the past is the idea that as a bdsm community we never judge others, when of course, we do judge others. Everyone just draws their line in a different place. But anyway, I also recognize that some people thrive in what might, for me, be an unhealthy atmosphere.

I also question this idea that we can manage to get through this mess called life hurting absolutely no one else but us and the people we relate to. We're very enmeshed, I hurt people every time I get up and breathe and exist as a Westerner. The thing we're charged with is to TRY not to hurt other people and the degree to which they must be considered is largely also subjective. A lot of people would argue that our entire sexualities are hurting people, hurting women, hurting the oppressed, simply because we dare to let power imbalance enter our lives as anything other than something to be overcome.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Irreperable damage to confidence and trust would be no surprise at all.

and that's why i've always strongly believed those things were much more important and relevant from Top to bottom than from bottom to Top. when you don't have personal control or authority over your own life and future anymore, shock and awe is a daily possibility. things like trust and confidence can sometimes get shaky, it fluctuates. i'm okay with that shakiness because i'm not the one steering this ship. what keeps it balanced is the trust and confidence he has in me.

 

[Netzach]

and that's why i've always strongly believed those things were much more important and relevant from Top to bottom than from bottom to Top. when you don't have personal control or authority over your own life and future anymore, shock and awe is a daily possibility. things like trust and confidence can sometimes get shaky, it fluctuates. i'm okay with that shakiness because i'm not the one steering this ship. what keeps it balanced is the trust and confidence he has in me.

If I give out something someone can't handle, or they me, the ship doesn't get righted again, and can't. People can handle a lot and some people can handle a lot more, but it's strategically pointless for a Master to break, - really break - the property.

However, it's strategically excellent, IMO, for the property to have at the center of their belief system that the Master can and will do anything in M/s as I like it. I do try to imbue things with that little edge of dread in my way and I have my own style of doing that.

You've gotten bent, tested, and bruised, but I don't think it's a mere accident of fate that whatever you've been given you've gotten through. You've been given the *tools* via training and conditioning, and you've had the capacity from the get go via personality.

It simply goes back to what I said about rightness being more important than goodness - rightness of fit, quality, and outlook, when you put the parts together.

 

[ownedsubgal]

So I maintain that my submissive responses to him aren't invalidated by my willingness to think that the latter would be some kind of deal-ending bait and switch, nor is a slave's who's never had the slightest precedent of such things and with whom such possibilities were never remotely suggested possible. Some people's "do anything to me" is totally flat out literal. That's fine. Other people's is rooted in "what I know of you I love and trust, so do what you will." The familiarity and confidence.

you make a good point and i don't argue this. everyone has a breaking point. just because i am a slave who accepts whatever he decides to dish out, does not mean that i cannot understand or relate to those slaves who will not, who will draw a line at some point even if it means breaking their heart.

i just do not like the classifications of Masters as "bad" or "good" based on how gentle and fairy-tale like they treat their slaves...nor do i like this idea that a Master must be ever-flawless and fair.

 

[Netzach]

i just do not like the classifications of Masters as "bad" or "good" based on how gentle and fairy-tale like they treat their slaves...nor do i like this idea that a Master must be ever-flawless and fair.

Amen.

 

[ownedsubgal]

and oh yeah, you wanna know something that would be a breaking point for me? what would leave me in a state of misery day after day, year after year, without end? what would make me hate life and push me to drink myself into a stupor each day just to get by??

a Master who ate my pussy everyday. or every other day. or once a week.

and that is not a joke, that would be the hell of hells for me. so there ya go.

 

[Netzach]

and oh yeah, you wanna know something that would be a breaking point for me? what would leave me in a state of misery day after day, year after year, without end? what would make me hate life and push me to drink myself into a stupor each day just to get by??

a Master who ate my pussy everyday. or every other day. or once a week.

and that is not a joke, that would be the hell of hells for me. so there ya go.

Everyone has something. Doesn't seem so arbitrary/crazy to me. If I had your sapphic clone as my slave girl and she felt that way about it, my desire to push the button would be tempered with the understanding that it's a mine in a minefield, even if it's nothing that I personally would feel that way about. That's useful information. It doesn't prohibit me from playing with it, but it certainly means it's not gonna happen once a week without a lot of groundwork.

And frankly if eating pussy isn't that big a deal to me, who cares.

ETA: you have to understand, I'm very tolerant with personal quirks. M can't stand chicken on the bone, because he was exposed to a massive butchering of chickens as a kid. The fact that he can eat chicken at all is a milestone. I could totally roast a bird every week and eat it going booga booga booga, but that's stupid.

 

[intothewoods]

I also question this idea that we can manage to get through this mess called life hurting absolutely no one else but us and the people we relate to. We're very enmeshed, I hurt people every time I get up and breathe and exist as a Westerner. The thing we're charged with is to TRY not to hurt other people and the degree to which they must be considered is largely also subjective. A lot of people would argue that our entire sexualities are hurting people, hurting women, hurting the oppressed, simply because we dare to let power imbalance enter our lives as anything other than something to be overcome.

Well, sure. I just personally appreciate a modicum of respect for other people's space and try to give that as well.

and oh yeah, you wanna know something that would be a breaking point for me? what would leave me in a state of misery day after day, year after year, without end? what would make me hate life and push me to drink myself into a stupor each day just to get by??

a Master who ate my pussy everyday. or every other day. or once a week.

and that is not a joke, that would be the hell of hells for me. so there ya go.

Me too. I don't like receiving oral.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Me too. I don't like receiving oral.

it is sooo sooooo not in the realm of "don't like." i would rather lick the toilet clean with my tongue than receive oral. i would gladly take a broken rib rather than receive oral. it is like Netz's M. with chickens in the slaughterhouse. a complete and utter psychological horror movie come to life.

but how many people would ache for me if i told them i had a horrible monster of a Master who ate my pussy all the time, making my life utter sh*t and i desperately wished i could leave? not too many, i'm guessing. but if i mention a broken bone or peeing blood from one too many kicks to the kidneys, a hundred angry strangers would come racing to the rescue if i let them. why?

we're all different, more folks have to recognize and accept that. someone with my personality, wiring, conditioning, whatever...can handle broken bones and bloody pee. i can't handle being eaten out or f*cking chicks or wearing a strap-on or a million other things a lot of the same folks would find to be nothing cruel or extraordinary.

 

[eastern sun]

you make a good point and i don't argue this. everyone has a breaking point. just because i am a slave who accepts whatever he decides to dish out, does not mean that i cannot understand or relate to those slaves who will not, who will draw a line at some point even if it means breaking their heart.

i just do not like the classifications of Masters as "bad" or "good" based on how gentle and fairy-tale like they treat their slaves...nor do i like this idea that a Master must be ever-flawless and fair.

Lovers do this with each other all the time - judge each other on the basis of an idea, fed by the romance of early passion. And then reality sets in and people get disappointed. And often hurt and frightened.

But I agree with you 100% on this point. And think the M/s dynamic actually can make it easier because it gives me the permission to accept what I don't like, don't want, find frightening, wish would never happen, etc. etc., and that most people are conditioned to think are deal-breakers.