M/s...why or why not?

[intothewoods]

My mother gave us sandwiches with white bread for lunch, every single day of my childhood.

I'm not kidding.

*faints dead away*

I don't have a problem with that. Getting second-guessed, I-told-you-soed and monday-morning-quarterbacked is all part of the burden of leadership.

Ha.

 

[BiBunny]

Sorry to osg for hijack - promise I'll be quick.

To answer the question...it wasn't easy. After I left the ex, I did some serious stock taking to figure out how I'd ended up in that mess and one of the big reasons was that I wouldn't, or couldn't, speak up in the moment and I always let myself be bulldozed.

BB, you know the kind of resentment this generates?

So, the next relationship I went into, I sat down with the fellow and said, very seriously, "Look, I have a problem with conflict and here's what it is..." I then spelled out the problem for him. Then I explained, "This is all new for me but I am going to speak out when something bothers me, even a little bit. I need you to be supportive and patient."

He was.

It felt really, really awkward at first but I forced myself through it. Sometimes, I'd react the old way then come back an hour later and apologize, then re-state my concerns like an adult. Now it happens naturally.

I think a big part of it was accepting that anger can be temporary and healthy and that I deserve to speak my mind as much as anyone else. Self esteem, very important.

Thank you, Keroin. That helps a lot!

Sorry, osg.

/hijack

 

[00Syd]

Shit. We did just manage to make another thread all about Jews again, didn't we.

We seem to be pretty good at that.

 

[Netzach]

Well, the internet is media. You know what they say about that...

*snort*

 

[Netzach]

Sorry for the hijacks, osg. It's a great thread and it invites a lot in. I just think it's funny that three people were like "and not argue, sure. You like passed out chicks or something?"

 

[JMohegan]

Sorry for the hijacks, osg. It's a great thread and it invites a lot in. I just think it's funny that three people were like "and not argue, sure. You like passed out chicks or something?"

That's because three people either didn't understand the point made, or are just in the mood for straw men on Wednesdays.

 

[Netzach]

That's because three people either didn't understand the point made, or are just in the mood for straw men on Wednesdays.

LOL, no, I really think that cultural diff. is going to inform these things. Makes the world go 'round.
That said, I can count on two fingers the number of times I've been in conflict with my top over anything.

I attribute this more to a freakish level of shared perspective and sympatico more than his authority, but it's the root of said authority. There's no point arguing when someone's so uncannily *reasonable* all the time.

...And I do think that's some Scando farm boy stuff serving him well, too, that kind of eminent reasonableness.

 

[ownedsubgal]

I guess it's better that I continue to identify my relationship as an Owner/pet situation to avoid the whole question altogether, though.

i think Owner/pet is a perfect (and pretty cute too) way to describe your relationship Bunny, from what you've shared about it here. Owner/pet can really just be looked at as a type of M/s imho.

 

[JMohegan]

LOL, no, I really think that cultural diff. is going to inform these things. Makes the world go 'round.
That said, I can count on two fingers the number of times I've been in conflict with my top over anything.

I attribute this more to a freakish level of shared perspective and sympatico more than his authority, but it's the root of said authority. There's no point arguing when someone's so uncannily *reasonable* all the time.

...And I do think that's some Scando farm boy stuff serving him well, too, that kind of eminent reasonableness.

Not a farm boy, but Scando here.

My earliest partners wouldn't have described me this way, but eventually, with the right one - yes.

Thank you for this.

 

[ownedsubgal]

This has been rolling around in my cranium. The aspect of play vs seriousness is another reason I wouldn't do an M/s relationship. My outlook is that most everything outside of my basic needs is play. My reasoning is simply that life will toss you all manner of unpleasantness so why not have the most fun possible, wherever possible? With that philosophy, I take very little seriously.

I want my relationship with my PYL to be based in play, to be based in fun, in fantasy, that's a big part of the attraction for me. This is not to suggest that M/s relationships aren't fun, not at all, only that, for me, making this part of my life a serious matter would drain the pleasure out of it. *Again, for me*

I've just realized that every reason people give for wanting or having an M/s relationship are the exact same reasons I would give for not wanting it.

makes sense. it's mostly in one's wiring i think. i could never be happy or feel good at all in a relationship that was based in fantasy or play. there would be no sense of purpose, direction, structure, security in that. and i can understand that for some folks like yourself, that's just the way they like it. but i personally need those things in order for life to be worth living, in order to have any hope of finding peace or contentment.

 

[Keroin]

I would read posts sometimes..I remember cat posted once about F making her drive on a broken tailbone for hours. I can't imagine that. It's a huge reason why I was hesitant.

Sorry, this one's been looping the cranium as well.

WTF?!

Can some explain this to me? It sounds like abuse from where I'm sitting.

 

[nh23]

makes sense. it's mostly in one's wiring i think. i could never be happy or feel good at all in a relationship that was based in fantasy or play. there would be no sense of purpose, direction, structure, security in that. and i can understand that for some folks like yourself, that's just the way they like it. but i personally need those things in order for life to be worth living, in order to have any hope of finding peace or contentment.

Me too. If it starts to feel like fantasy I get very bad feelings about it.

 

[nh23]

Sorry, this one's been looping the cranium as well.

WTF?!

Can some explain this to me? It sounds like abuse from where I'm sitting.

Cat posted once about having a broken tail bone. F made her drive him for like 17 hours or something on it. I can't remember the post. Cat lives a more hard core life than most of us I think. I wouldn't call it abuse though. She chooses to live that life.

It's one of the things that really scared me about M/s though. Until I found out that all M/s relationships are not like that.

 

[Keroin]

makes sense. it's mostly in one's wiring i think. i could never be happy or feel good at all in a relationship that was based in fantasy or play. there would be no sense of purpose, direction, structure, security in that. and i can understand that for some folks like yourself, that's just the way they like it. but i personally need those things in order for life to be worth living, in order to have any hope of finding peace or contentment.

Yeah, I get that now.

And I'm very sorry for lots of things I said to you in the past, BTW.

 

[nh23]

I should add that a lot of us feel weird about calling abuse on things. What may appear like abuse to someone may not feel that way to us.

 

[Netzach]

Not a farm boy, but Scando here.

My earliest partners wouldn't have described me this way, but eventually, with the right one - yes.

Thank you for this.

It's not found in the 20something set. No matter how smart, mature, even keeled you are, you're just more volatile early on than later on. Which is why the Chinese "half your age and six years" formula has a lot of wisdom to it. Someone being out of that crap by the time you marry is good.

JMo, You have to assume if you're one of these people who are cloyingly good at lots of things and irritatingly well rounded and not a shouter and even tempered and all that - that most men demanding obedience are er - not like that. So the instant objection to "no arguments" is predicated on the woman in question being in the position of more reasonableness far more often than not. That the fact is, it's not *easy* to trade up when you say "I'm going to do what you want."

A lot of inherently s types are going to say that's ridiculous, one shouldn't have to feel like she's trading up, just do what you're told. I'm not like that. For myriad reasons, and a very late and hard fought road to any degree of independence in many ways, I'm not inherently looking to let other people make choices for me and I'm going to take 8 years to think "you know, I'd like to please you."

A lot of things sound absolutely idiotic on paper, that when you point them toward the person you love, are no big deal.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Sorry for the hijacks, osg. It's a great thread and it invites a lot in. I just think it's funny that three people were like "and not argue, sure. You like passed out chicks or something?"

oh please no apologies necessary, it's very cool that my little question could spark these reflections.

the arguing topic is one i kinda hesitate to touch, because Daddy has often called me argumentative by nature...and he really really dislikes that! the thing is, i don't see myself as particularly argumentative. but it's all in how one defines it, right? like some here equate arguing with raised voices or flared tempers, it certainly doesn't have to be that way. i think the fact that i'm overly analytical and inquisitive can lead to a kind of "back and forth" type of discussion where i'm asking questions, dissecting, probing deeper, trying to understand and be understood. kinda similar to friendly Jew-style debate, except i lack the drive/desire to be proven right or sway the other person to my p.o.v. i like the discussion, the analysis, even some debate, but i don't want to "win." this has frustrated soooooo many folks who have wanted to have a juicy argument with me, lol.

but yeah so, i have sense enough not to go there at all with my Master. it's all argument to him and it's not something he has a tolerance for from anyone, particularly not his own slave. still my mouth has gotten me into trouble at times just by asking questions or by voicing an opinion when it was not asked. it's a sticky wicket indeed. He knows i try, am trying, though.

so when JMohegan says he has no tolerance for arguing in a relationship, it just reminds me of how my Master feels the same way and of how that's an issue i must constantly be on my toes to avoid.

 

[Netzach]

oh please no apologies necessary, it's very cool that my little question could spark these reflections.

the arguing topic is one i kinda hesitate to touch, because Daddy has often called me argumentative by nature...and he really really dislikes that! the thing is, i don't see myself as particularly argumentative. but it's all in how one defines it, right? like some here equate arguing with raised voices or flared tempers, it certainly doesn't have to be that way. i think the fact that i'm overly analytical and inquisitive can lead to a kind of "back and forth" type of discussion where i'm asking questions, dissecting, probing deeper, trying to understand and be understood. kinda similar to friendly Jew-style debate, except i lack the drive/desire to be proven right or sway the other person to my p.o.v. i like the discussion, the analysis, even some debate, but i don't want to "win." this has frustrated soooooo many folks who have wanted to have a juicy argument with me, lol.

but yeah so, i have sense enough not to go there at all with my Master. it's all argument to him and it's not something he has a tolerance for from anyone, particularly not his own slave. still my mouth has gotten me into trouble at times just by asking questions or by voicing an opinion when it was not asked. it's a sticky wicket indeed. He knows i try, am trying, though.

so when JMohegan says he has no tolerance for arguing in a relationship, it just reminds me of how my Master feels the same way and of how that's an issue i must constantly be on my toes to avoid.

It's so funny. I can totally grok that part of personality too. I want someone to say up is down if I say up is down sometimes. It's just really nice.

 

[Keroin]

Cat posted once about having a broken tail bone. F made her drive him for like 17 hours or something on it. I can't remember the post. Cat lives a more hard core life than most of us I think. I wouldn't call it abuse though. She chooses to live that life.

It's one of the things that really scared me about M/s though. Until I found out that all M/s relationships are not like that.

Don't get me wrong, I love pain but my spine? Man, my spine is really, really, really important and I don't fuck around with that, and I couldn't be with someone who would, in any dynamic.

No offense intended. I just can't compute. If she was cool with it then, that's her call.

 

[nh23]

Don't get me wrong, I love pain but my spine? Man, my spine is really, really, really important and I don't fuck around with that, and I couldn't be with someone who would, in any dynamic.

No offense intended. I just can't compute. If she was cool with it then, that's her call.

Yeah that's how I feel about it. It's her ass..LOL

Like I said before Master is very adamant about not breaking his toy. So I don't have to worry about things like that. Had he been like that I would have certainly rethought a M/s relationship with him.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Sorry, this one's been looping the cranium as well.

WTF?!

Can some explain this to me? It sounds like abuse from where I'm sitting.

eh, it's a slave life, no further explanation really required. sometimes our Masters/Owners may push us to extremes. but i certainly wouldn't label Catalina as someone who is abused and absolutely would not label Francisco as an abuser...they are a very loving and devoted M/s couple. but they are M/s. there's a higher likelihood of extremes popping up when you are talking about Owner/property vs. ward and june. does it have to be that way? as nh stated, of course not. some Masters would never ever go there. but they can go there, that is a major distinction between M/s and D/s.

 

[Netzach]

eh, it's a slave life, no further explanation really required. sometimes our Masters/Owners may push us to extremes. but i certainly wouldn't label Catalina as someone who is abused and absolutely would not label Francisco as an abuser...they are a very loving and devoted M/s couple. but they are M/s. there's a higher likelihood of extremes popping up when you are talking about Owner/property vs. ward and june. does it have to be that way? as nh stated, of course not. some Masters would never ever go there. but they can go there, that is a major distinction between M/s and D/s.

I'm with you on this. Getting the whole story from a messageboard is next to nil in complex situations, too. I always feel like I'd kill to hear the top post about some of these things, too, just being able to see it from both angles would be so interesting and probably enlightening. I don't think F would make a mess he could not in some fashion, clean.

 

[Keroin]

oh please no apologies necessary, it's very cool that my little question could spark these reflections.

Well thanks, but it's not normal for me to attack people and I did, so I am sorry.

(JM pointed out to me that my behaviour was uncalled for and he was correct, I was just too wound up to see it at the time).

 

[ownedsubgal]

Yeah, I get that now.

And I'm very sorry for lots of things I said to you in the past, BTW.

it's alright. you didn't know my life, and my words were triggering for you. it's certainly happened before.

but i do want you to know, that i do not view my relationship with my Master as non-consensual by any means. the fact that i made a choice once as opposed to everyday over the last 9 years does not make that consent less significant...in fact, in our little word, that very fact makes it all the more significant and special.

it's true that we haven't come across many M/s unions similar to ours. it's like, either we relate to folks on the romance/madly in love aspect, or we relate to folks on the cold harsh realities of life and suffering aspect, but for the majority of M/s folks it seems that these two aspects don't fit within the same relationship. for us tho, it works and makes sense.

 

[Keroin]

eh, it's a slave life, no further explanation really required. sometimes our Masters/Owners may push us to extremes. but i certainly wouldn't label Catalina as someone who is abused and absolutely would not label Francisco as an abuser...they are a very loving and devoted M/s couple. but they are M/s. there's a higher likelihood of extremes popping up when you are talking about Owner/property vs. ward and june. does it have to be that way? as nh stated, of course not. some Masters would never ever go there. but they can go there, that is a major distinction between M/s and D/s.

I'm curious about how much M's consider the legal implications. I mean what if you were to "break your toy" and said toy or the family of the toy went after you legally?