It's Time To Abolish Teacher's Unions

[SgtSpiderMan]

I linked the census data, which he ignored. That's SOP fir Sarge. Then he starts telling you what you supposedly said and you know you're going down the rabbit hole.

The census data should be ignored, it had nothing to do with the conversation. The issue was WHY the people moved, not that the people moved. No one is disputing that people are moving to Florida & Texas from NY & California.

I still haven't played any word games with you. You made a claim, I asked for proof, and as of yet, you've provided none.

It stands to reason that someone who is an engineer would be able to read well, and provide the proper data to back up a claim.

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

ALL public employee unions should be abolished.

At the Federal level this can be done by rescinding EO 10988. Some congressional action may also be required.

Each state will have to act to rescind unions within their jurisdictions.

A little background. In the late 1930's FDR called George Meany to the White House to discuss the issuance of an EO to allow Federal employees to form unions for the purposes of collective bargaining. Meany was adamantly opposed to the notion. His reasoning was that unlike the private sector there is no natural tensions between the union members and 'management.' The government would use the union members as bought and paid for votes at the expense of the taxpayer. He continued with the observation that eventually those unions would become the enemy of the people. His arguments were strong enough that FDR tabled the thought and Federal employees were not able to unionize until JFK issued EO 10988.

Meany's prescience is already manifesting it in those states that have been overly generous with the various benefits, especially retirement benefits, for the public employees. As an example CA's unfunded pension debt is approaching $1 trillion, or approx. $80,000/taxpayer. As the workforce is aging this debt is expected to increase in the coming years. The debt was accrued through collective bargaining. The politicians agreed to the benefits with the full knowledge that they would gain union support at the polling places and that they wouldn't be around to pay the piper when the debt came due. It was a 'win-win' for the political class.

Ultimately this is going to be seen at the Federal level as well because of the bloated bureaucracy that has been built up over the years.

Public employee unions are increasingly becoming the enemies of the taxpayer just as Meany predicted so many years ago.

Won't work Dixie. So some of the teachers forego the union dues. They still benefit from the collective bargaining. IF an overwhelming majority of the teachers left the union then the state would have more leverage, but the fact remains that it's in the political classes best interest to cave in to the union demands. I remind you that the political class still benefits at the ballot box without having to deal with the consequences. In effect it's in their best interest to just kick the can down the road.

You mention 'bad teachers.' Even those teachers that commit egregious acts are difficult to fire. However that's not the problem. It's the low mediocre teachers that are hard, damn near impossible, to get rid of. Their classroom performance is sub-standard but they keep their nose clean and toe the line. The students, and ultimately the taxpayer, suffer because of this. The unions steadfastly refuse to allow any performance based metric to be applied regarding advancement. This has two effects. The first being that the low mediocre's are protected and more than a few of the truly gifted new teachers are held back with many leaving the trade (I use the term 'trade' purposely here, true professionals don't join unions.) out of frustration and who can blame them?

And the teacher's unions are just the most visible today. The same dynamic is taking place within ALL of the public employee unions.

I can always count on Ish to expose his ignorance when he posts.

We've already established that teachers are paid 20% less than those with similar education & experience. If their public sector union had the power you claim they do this wouldn't be true. We've also established that there's a nationwide teacher shortage. If teachers had that much sway you would think they could create a workplace where people wanted to be. It's easy to remove a teacher, they just don't get reappointed, no need to give a reason.

No matter how much evidence is given otherwise I can always count on Ish to say something incredibly ignorant.

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

It's called having kids in private schools. Why do you think anyone that can afford private schools sends their kids to private schools? Why do you think we've seen a large number of parents move their kids to private schools. They're not sacrificing their kids education for social experiments.

https://www.npr.org/2020/10/09/920316481/enrollment-is-dropping-in-public-schools-around-the-country
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/07/dur...es-switch-to-private-school-from-public-.html

Just so we understand each other you have nothing to show that private schools produce a better student than public schools do.

Your cite also shows that parents were enrolling kids in private schools NOT for the education, but the fact that they were in person during the pandemic.

"At the same time, private schools, which generally have larger campuses, smaller classes and greater autonomy, often demonstrated more flexibility when it came to reopening.

As a result, families were able to send their children to school in person, alleviating the burden on parents and, in many cases, allowing them to go to work or pursue employment opportunities from home."

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/07/dur...es-switch-to-private-school-from-public-.html

 

[Bud_Spencer]

The census data should be ignored, it had nothing to do with the conversation.

See what I mean? It's pointless to debate someone this dishonest.

 

[LukSkyFokker]

See what I mean? It's pointless to debate someone this dishonest.

He's right. It has nothing to do with the conversation.

 

[Bud_Spencer]

He's right. It has nothing to do with the conversation.

So what do these red states have that draws people and what do the blue state have that repels them?

The answers are obvious. But please, keep denying the obvious.

 

[LukSkyFokker]

So what do these red states have that draws people and what do the blue state have that repels them?

The answers are obvious. But please, keep denying the obvious.

Same question back to you but reverse the colors. You have no fucking clue but you're adamant about your baseless assumptions.

 

[Bud_Spencer]

Same question back to you but reverse the colors. You have no fucking clue but you're adamant about your baseless assumptions.

California, New York and Illinois are bleeding people. Texes, Florida and Arizona are swelling with the influx. Why? I think you know, but the answer punctures your worldview, so you'll obfuscate yet again.

 

[LukSkyFokker]

California, New York and Illinois are bleeding people. Texes, Florida and Arizona are swelling with the influx. Why? I think you know, but the answer punctures your worldview, so you'll obfuscate yet again.

Biden won AZ, Dud, you clueless clown.

 

[Bud_Spencer]

Biden won AZ, Dud, you clueless clown.

Did I call it, or did I call it?

 

[LukSkyFokker]

Did I call it, or did I call it?

Called what? That you screwed up and listed a blue state?

 

[Rightguide]

Union donations are trivial compared to corporate.

Corporations are private entities. Teacher's unions are public entities and should have no role in competing politically against the interests of the civil society. The role of government is not to ingratiate itself or to compete against the interest of voters.

 

[Bud_Spencer]

Called what? That you screwed up and listed a blue state?

No, that you'd talk about anything but the issue. And I was right again.

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

California, New York and Illinois are bleeding people. Texes, Florida and Arizona are swelling with the influx. Why? I think you know, but the answer punctures your worldview, so you'll obfuscate yet again.

Again, you're making a claim with zero evidence to back it up.

 

[pecksniff]

As it is, without a standard, private schools are still producing better educated students. That's in part because they don't worry about social justice programs like CRT. They still try to teach the pillars of a classic liberal education.

I daresay CRT would be rather more easily included in a private-school curriculum -- many of the parents being upper-middle-class liberals, and no political opposition being in play.

 

[pecksniff]

What I'd like to see is for the parents of any particular district to form, for lack of a better term, 'school co-op's.' Totally cut out the public school system until it can reform itself.

Actually, that sounds more like a parallel, alternative public-school system.

 

[pecksniff]

So what do these red states have that draws people and what do the blue state have that repels them?

Not liberal politics.

 

[Bud_Spencer]

I daresay CRT would be rather more easily included in a private-school curriculum -- many of the parents being upper-middle-class liberals, and no political opposition being in play.

CRT, being in diametric opposition to liberalism, make that a very odd and improbable statement.

 

[pecksniff]

Corporations are private entities. Teacher's unions are public entities . . .

No, they're not, no more than any other kind of labor union.

 

[pecksniff]

CRT, being in diametric opposition to liberalism, make that a very odd and improbable statement.

You'll find that most people who support CRT are self-ID'd liberals (using the word as it is commonly used in American political discourse).

 

[Bud_Spencer]

Not liberal politics.

Just the results of liberal politics: High crime, over-regulation, stratospheric taxes, racial discrimination.

 

[Bud_Spencer]

You'll find that most people who support CRT are self-ID'd liberals (using the word as it is commonly used in American political discourse).

They're leftists. A liberal would never support such an illiberal program.

 

[Cubantripod]

Biden won AZ, Dud, you clueless clown.

Elections are won by independents. That still doesn't explain Bud's point. Blue states like CA, NY and IL are losing residents and FL., TX. and AZ are gaining them.

 

[Rightguide]

I think we should privatize the entire educational system.

Return the tax money paid by citizens and let them fund the school system that is right for their kids. Also, the people who don't have children should not be forced to pay for other people's.

Teachers are too lavishly paid and they get paid whether they do well, or poorly at their jobs. This should end.

Either your students learn well, or you're fired.

At the very least parents need to be able to choose where their kids go to school and vouchers should be made available to help that happen. Maybe School Districts should be done away with and funding should come directly from the state to the school making each a kind of charter school. We need to go back to teaching the three Rs and forget the Marxist propaganda and social justice bullshit.

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

At the very least parents need to be able to choose where their kids go to school and vouchers should be made available to help that happen. Maybe School Districts should be done away with and funding should come directly from the state to the school making each a kind of charter school. We need to go back to teaching the three Rs and forget the Marxist propaganda and social justice bullshit.

Parents have always been able to choose their school.